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Messages - sean

#1

There is no reason to use the 5-pin XLR unless you want the +and- 15V DC power for a preamp.

I recommend that you use the "power amp input" jacks to connect from your sound source to the FR-7710 amp.  I think this schematic matches your FR-7710 amp: https://www.fenderrhodes.com/org/ch11/fig11-3.jpg.  Zoom in to the upper left corner to see the input jack arrangements.

You will probably not be super happy with the Rhodes Stage Piano plugged in to these inputs, but if you put any kind of clean boost between the Rhodes Stage and the FR-7710 you can achieve happiness.  You could buy a Rhodes preamp, or you would be perfectly fine with a little mackie mixer (or even a cheaper alternative).  I like the mixer option, because it allows you to get EQ and as much gain as you will ever need, and it can provide left and right outputs from your mono source.

Let's hope you can get that amp running! 

Sean

#2


I think that the trick is just don't give up.  Yes, it is a pain in the butt, but it will be worth it once you have every single bit of the felt and glue off the hammers, and have nice smooth cams.

Just watch Fred do it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeHgO7ZFqfc

Oh, I wonder if you are only using 70% alcohol.  Go to the drugstore or hardware store and get yourself some 91% isopropyl alcohol. 

Sean


#3


Oh, well.  A grinder is not a great cutting tool for aluminum.

An abrasive wheel will just smear the aluminum, rather than cut.  There are special cut-off wheels for aluminum that do a less-sucky job, but they still leave a nasty edge.

The circular saw blade leaves a remarkably clean edge.  But truthfully, either way we would hit the edge with a file and de-burring tools to clean it up after the cut.

So, you got it to work, and the Rhodes is alive again!  That's great.

Sean

#4

Please promise me that you have called Vintage Vibe, and talked to Chris or Fred and asked them for the exact 73-key damper rail that you need.  If they really truly don't have it...

You will find that a radial-arm saw will cut the aluminum extrusion very cleanly.
You don't need a special blade sold explicity for aluminum, just use a carbide-tipped blade with as many teeth as you can afford or find handy.

Lubrication will help a LOT!  I use a wax bar that is sold for this purpose:  Olson Saw Blade Lubricant - $12 for a lifetime supply/little stick.  It makes a mess of your blade guard, and will probably get on the wall behind your saw, but it stops the aluminum from gumming up your saw blade.  You might still get a few teeth with aluminum stuck to them, but you can knock off the crud with a piece of wood (don't use your hand, it will be hot).  Inspect the blade before and after every cut!

Wear gloves, long sleeves, a face shield, and an apron.  Cutting through the aluminum creates a beautiful snowfall of hot aluminum flakes.

Clamp the workpiece tightly to the table of your saw.  The blade will pull it away from the fence, and you will get a crooked cut.  (Try a test cut before the final length cut.)  Really clamp it tight with at least two clamps, you really can't hold the large stock with your hand.  Don't try.

Don't cut slowly.  Cut just as fast as you would for wood.  If you go very slow with the aluminum, it will get very hot, and gum up the blade -- and then you will not get a clean cut.  Pull smoothly through the cut, don't stop, don't hesitate.  Not fast and herky-jerky, just be smoooth.

If you don't believe me, try cutting a thick-walled extrusion of aluminum that is not precious like the damper rail.  I have even cut one-inch round bar with the circular saw blade.

Sean




#5


If the headphones were working, then the "earphone jack" was not working as a normally-closed switch.  The switch contacts on these jacks get dirty and corroded, and so you don't get signal through to the speaker load.  Replace that jack.

Now you have to fix the damage that you have done....
#6


I think that getting the newly-manufactured amp is a great choice.  The best choice.

Sean

#7


You should probably get the VV kit. 

The only thing to beware with the VV kits is that they supply transistors that have the wrong pinout order, so you have to make sure that you re-orient the transistor to get the leads installed in the right place.  Look in the "instructions" tab to see their only guidance related to this.

Look at the "what's included" tab.  Their standard kit includes all the caps, and also the 5W power resistors.  Very nice.

If you are new to working with a soldering iron, find a friend who has more experience. 

Personally, I would want to clean up that ugly mounting job done on the power transistors, and the VV "complete" kit would take care of that.  You should only do this if you are confident that you can do a much cleaner job than the upside-down mounting shown in your photo.  The schematic indicates that you might have to change some resistor values to get the bias right (R23 and R25).

After you are done soldering, clean off the flux with alcohol and q-tips.  The local drug store should have 91% Isopropyl Alcohol (70% works okay).

Don't forget to inspect your work as you go.  Make sure that every single capacitor is oriented with the right polarity.

Sean

#8

Don't kid yourself that these 50-year-old capacitors are still great. Just because a DMM measured their capacitance does not mean that they are not leaky at higher voltage.  They could have elevated ESR, they could change in value very significantly with temperature.  They are not young anymore, so they may fail or falter soon after you start using the Wurly regularly.  If this were my old Wurly preamp and amplifier, I would replace each and every electrolytic capacitor in one afternoon and never worry about it ever again.

That blue #6 capacitor is directly connected to the speaker output.  I would want a capacitor with the lowest possible ESR, and a good rating for ripple current.  The schematic says 500μF 50V.  I would search Mouser and Digikey for one rated for 100V (because it won't cost much more), and get an axial-lead can that is similar in length to the original for mounting on that old circuit board.  (The mounting clip makes little difference, but it is cute.)

The big silver (1000μF 50V) cap #9 spends all-day every-day at 42V DC (plus ripple).  I would order a 1000uf cap rated at 100V, and get the lowest ESR rating and highest ripple-current rating I could find. 

For less than ten bucks each, you can get a low-ESR (less than 200milliOhms, some below 100mΩ) axial-lead aluminum-can capacitor with good temperature rating (85°C is fine)(longest hours is best).


ALL of the small electrolytic capacitors should be replaced with modern radial-lead caps that can be mounted standing up without their lead wires exposed.  Yes, you may have to bend and spread the lead wires to fit.  Get capacitors that have the same farad-rating, with a voltage-rating that is equal or above the original capacitor's voltage-rating.

Before you remove all the caps from the board, take a photo of the board, then print the photo and mark it for + and - polarity on all of the caps.  Then you can double-check yourself when installing the new caps.

Sean

#9
Thirteen bucks?  I am tempted to get it just to play with.

What are you using for input power? 
A nine volt battery won't last long, nor provide much current.  (But this I want to try.)


If your Janus preamp "doesn't really do much amplifying" then something is obviously wrong.


https://a.co/d/2zPOzfS  "DrOK" Micro Boost Voltage Converter...

Sean
#10
Brewski,

If I had this preamp in my house, I would test it with battery power.  It is a lot easier than any other way.

The hardest part is slapping together a wiring harness that plugs in to the preamp.  Since I don't have any four-pin plugs on hand, I would solder little test leads to the back side of the connector, or I would try to cut down some spade lugs to shove into each terminal of the connector.  You can also use alligator clips, but I would recommend the little J-hook style test leads. 

Be careful if you connect to the back of the 4-pin connector - it is very easy for the little clips to slip off and bang into another pin.  It is very easy to accidentally dump the full DC power into pin2 or pin3 and damage your test power amp.  For that reason alone, I use a cheap 9V-battery-powered toy amp as my testing amp.  Also, connect your clip to the preamp first, then connect the other end to the battery.

I like to use the least-fiddly setup as possible.  Get a box of little connectors from Amazon: WAGO 221 LEVER-NUTS.  Scroll down until you see the pack of 25 for thirteen bucks.  You can plug various size wires into these connectors, lift the lever to change connections, and tape the connector to your bench to keep things from moving around.  For benchtop testing, these connectors are re-useable.  (Mark them as used, so you never install a used connector in an AC box in your house.)


You just need to get the positive terminal of your battery to preamp pin 1, and the negative terminal of your battery to pin 4 (which is also the audio ground for the two channels).  Connect a 1/4" jack between pin 4 ground and pin 2 audio out, and another jack between pin 4 ground and pin 3 audio out.

You can use three nine volt batteries in series to get a little more than 25V, or you might have a power tool that uses a 24Volt battery.  If you are using three nine volt batteries in series, don't expect them to last for long lighting up those tremolo bulbs.  If the bulbs don't get to full brightness, you can put another group-of-three batteries in parallel with the first group for more current at the same source voltage.  Put a switch or quick-disconnect in the circuit to cut the power easily.

Also, if the audio sounds tinny (no low end), add a "bypass" capacitor across the power supply (battery) terminals.  Honestly, you don't need a huge electrolytic cap, something smaller than 50uF will probably be fine for testing with 9V batteries.  You should be able to notice the improved bass response by using a little 10uF MLCC ceramic cap for bypass (if you have a handful of them, put them in parallel).  The bypass capacitors are easier to manage on a little breadboard, but it isn't too hard to manage if you use the 5-hole Wago connectors for the +24V and Ground bus connections.

A few years ago, I did some calculations to predict that the Peterson preamp will probably draw less than 300mA:
https://ep-forum.com/smf/index.php?topic=9995.msg55633#msg55633

Study this schematic:
https://www.fenderrhodes.com/org/ch11/fig11-8.jpg

BTW, I have lots of experience with Rhodes power supplies for the Janus preamps.  See https://ep-forum.com/smf/index.php?topic=9657.0


Oh, I guess I didn't mention this:  take the preamp out of the piano before testing.  Remove the whole name rail, and remove the knobs, and unscrew the preamp from the rail.  If you need to run a long cable from the harp connector to the test rig, you can plug the long cable from the harp into the Accessory 2 (lower) jack of the preamp (and leave the existing RCA cable that hangs out the back of the preamp sitting there idle).

Wait - one more thing: this testing rig will be a little bit noisy, because nothing is shielded nor truly grounded.  I find that tolerating the noise is easier than trying to eliminate it with aluminum foil and ground wires.

Whatever you do, take photos and post them!

Sean
#11
Mr Lawrence,

Get the MXR Phase 95 (Dunlop model # M290).  You will like it a lot.

Watch this video demo of phase 95 with a Rhodes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TVePtJihOs

The Phase 95 can do everything a Phase 90 can do (four phaser stages), and everything that a Phase 45 can do (two phaser stages) - both MXR block logo types (with emphasized feedback), and MXR script logo types (without extra feedback). 

The little thing is great, except for the blinding blue LED next to the stomp switch (the only mod I did was to change the LED to dim RED).  It is a fiddly little mod, but you can cut the legs of the blue LED right where the leads enter the 3mm plastic lens (don't cut them off at the circuit board).  This will leave two little stumps at the right height for you to graft another 3mm LED in there.  Wait.  Before you cut the LED out, make a little black mark with a sharpie pen on the PCB next to the negative leg (the side of the LED lens that has the flat edge at the bottom).  It is obviously very important to get the new LED installed with the right orientation.

There is a little plastic spacer below the LED that blocks your cutters from getting at the LED legs.  I just used my cutters (put on eye protection goggles) to shatter the plastic housing of the LED, and it broke off clean enough to remove the LED and the spacer, and then clean it up with the cutters. (Look closely to make sure you didn't get any bits and pieces stuck in the rest of the circuitry.)  Use the plastic spacer as a template to show you exactly how long you want to cut the leads on the new LED.

Then comes the hard part:  getting the new LED to sit there while you solder it to the old LED's legs.  I made two tiny lassos with sewing thread, and was able to knot each leg of the new LED in place, and then solder them together with good contact and the LED sitting straight up.  It may be a pain, but it is quicker and less risky than dis-assembling the pedal to get at the underside of the PCB and un-solder the LED.

I also don't really like the light that flashes at the speed rate.  I can see the setting on the knob right next to that annoying light.  This LED also gets annoying bright blue if you set the pedal for Phase 90 mode.  And if that nasty blue LED wasn't there, I wouldn't be blinded every time I look at the pedal, and I could read the knob. 

I think the pedal would be more fun if the little mode switches could be toe-bean operated, but that won't work with the tiny little pedal chassis.  I decided it wasn't worth the time and money to put it into a big new chassis with three stomp switches.

At least the power jack is in the right place - on the far back end.

I can't watch the video portion of the Phase 95 demo at:
https://www.jimdunlop.com/mxr-phase-95/#tabTargetproductDemo
(but the audio is good showing your ears what the phaser can do to a guitar.)

See also the little pdf manual.  It tells you exactly why you want the Phase 95 - so you can push the "script" button to remove R28 and all that feedback wetness, because there are times when you don't want it.

Also, sometimes I power mine with a 9V battery by just getting a "9V battery to 5.2mm x2.1mm male tip-negative barrel connector" like https://www.amazon.com/Mr-Power-Battery-Converter-Connector-cable/dp/B07FCZZ5JF




Sean
#12

There is a good chance that the hammer flange is broken.

There is a smaller chance that the hammer is simply not seated in the hammer flange.

#13
Sean,

You will find it remarkably easy to remove all the screws and slide all the pickups forward onto a large cardboard or wooden board.  You can run a strip of masking tape across the pickup mounting tangs if you want to keep them less jumbled. (You can even remove the whole pickup rail from the piano first if you want to.)

Some pianos may have the far left or far right connection soldered rather than a eyelet terminal.  In that case you should clip the wire, and install an eyelet terminal (or simply unscrew the RCA jack and let it move with the pickups.

Sean
#14


Since 18 Guage braided wire is the only size available, I think that is what you should use.  I think it will look a little beefier than the original, but I can't find anything smaller.

Does anyone else know a source for the braided wire that is tinned, not flattened, and made with dainty individual strands.  All the braided wire I have seen recently is made of much thicker and fewer individual strands.

Where can we buy the right stuff in small quantities?

Sean
#15
Christoph,

It might be so.  I dunno.  I never thought of that befo.  You could sit an extra pickup next door to the lowest E, but....

The distance from the tip of the tine to the tip of the pickup is a very strong factor.  Also, those low notes sound very different depending on how high the tine points above the pickup tip, so adjust the timbre setting to be identical.

I believe the tine length and tuning spring position can make a big difference.  If one tine is cut longer than ideal, and the tuning spring is pushed further up (away from the tine tip) - and the other tine is cut shorter than ideal, and the tuning spring is sitting very close to the tip of the tine... they will react differently to the hammer blow, and may sound different.

I assume that you have installed fresh new chewy grommets.  And we have to hope that the hammer tips are the same hardness.

And we are not done yet!  There is yet another variation from note-to-note... the StrikeLine!  It shouldn't make a huge difference between neighboring tines, but sometimes it is enough to be a bother.  Be aware that variations in the very large escapement at the very low notes can cause significant differences in the strike point where the hammer tip contacts the tine.

So you get to play around with all these adjustments before you get exactly the tone you want:
1.  Escapement Screw
2.  Timbre Screw
3.  Tuning spring position on the tine and tine length
4.  Pickup position
5.  Strikeline
6.  Hammer Tip hardness
7.  Grommet freshness

All that being said, I bet moving the pickup in a tiny bit will fix your woes.

Sean
#16

That is the whole point of adjusting the escapement... If you want the tine to be struck with very soft actuation of the key, reduce the escapement.  (Yeah, squish those grommets a tiny bit more.)

Sean
#17

I will foolishly jump into this controversy.

I agree with Tunelab's statement.  The short stiff Rhodes tine doesn't create significant imperfect overtones like a long heavy stiff piano string that is constrained at each end.  The acoustic piano string creates more overtones, and more powerful overtones.

I think it would be great if somebody sat down with a strobotuner and a Rhodes and tried to document the deviation in the upper harmonics.  I personally believe that you would find none.

However, it may be reasonable to stretch-tune a Rhodes to accommodate a particular human's sense of pitch at high or low registers.  Lots of folks perceive notes in the upper two ocaves as being slightly flat, and stretch-tuning can "fix" that.  But I have never understood how that would sound nice when played with other instruments that are not stretch-tuned.

That is my 2¢.

Sean


#18

Dogue,

Is there room enough to stuff the LED inside the old neon bulb carcass so that you can use the same orange lens and mounting ring?

In that case, you might want a brighter LED with a clear plastic lens.  You can buy orange LEDs, but  I have no idea how orange and neon-ish they look.

Sean
#19

Dogue,

Is that 42V supply voltage DC or AC?  Neon bulbs use AC current.  The Wurly schematic shows the neon bulb across the input mains - 120V AC in USA, 220V or 240V AC in most of the world.

Ahh, I see the 42V DC supply going up to the the collector of TR8 and TR9.  Good.  Use that.
----- ----- ----- -----

You can use any LED that you want to use

All you have to do is put a resistor in series with the LED to limit the current to what the LED is rated to survive (and still provides the level of brightness that you prefer).  I prefer dim lights, so I shoot for current of 3 or 4mA.  Many indicator LEDs can survive as much as 20mA.

You figure out the current in the LED using Ohm's law and the forward voltage drop specified for the LED.  The forward voltage drop for many indicator LEDs is 2V (sometimes as low as .7 volts).  In your case:  (42V minus Vf) divided by 4mA equals 10KΩ.  So stick a 10KΩ resistor in series with the LED, and the current through the LED will stay nice and low (4mA); so the LED will last for years.

You almost certainly don't have to worry about the power handling capacity of the current-limiting resistor.  When pushing 4mA through a 10KΩ resistor, the resistor is only handling 160mW.  A quarter-Watt resistor will work, but I would choose a half-Watt resistor for two reasons:  1) it will run cooler (infinitesimally maybe), and 2) the half-Watt resistors are physically larger, and easier to handle in point-to-point soldering installations.

The LED that I like for effects pedals is Wurth 151051RS11000, because it is DIM not bright, diffused not clear, and 5mm in diameter.  If I want a bright red LED, I use Kingbright WP7113LSRD.  I really hate any LED with a clear lens.  They are never comfortable on the eye, and are not great for off-angle viewing at long distance.

Standard LEDs are 5mm in diameter, little ones are 3mm in diameter, but you can order larger diameter ones if you want the light to be like a huge old neon bulb.

Sean
#20


It would probably be most helpful if you provided photos of the situation, and the ground lugs that are without a home.  Then we can piece together where everything goes.

I have a 206 (and I have no desire to chop it into a more portable shape), so I can compare and provide photos if I get motivated enough to pull it out, and open it up.  Maybe this is just the motivation I need to install the proper power cord, and disconnect those multipin blocks with live wires on the back of the unit.

Sean
#21

Kevin,

Get your hands on an EQ system and prove to yourself that EQ would fix the problem.  I would not start with a guitar amp, because the EQ on a guitar amp is NOT actually low-mid-high (guitar amp EQ knobs interact with each other very strongly).  Get a little tabletop mixer with two or three-band EQ.  My little Mackie Mix8 has three-band EQ, so do the Behringer 802 mixers.  Maybe that wouldn't be lucky enough to find your frequency sweet-spot (or sour spot).  If you can borrow a graphic EQ, that would probably work well.  You could search and destroy by 1/3 octaves or whatever.

After finding out how to fix your low range on the piano, then we can start thinking about buying or building a circuit to do what you need.

Sean
#22

B -

Internet search engine found "piano1071" on Musiker-Board, and I recognized the photo of RT.

S
#23

B -

Follow Spave's advice and set the timber.  The long tines should be aimed very high above the pickup tips.

Replace the grommets.  37-year-old grommets are not fine, no matter how they seem.
Swing over to see Jens at http://www.tasteundtechnik.de, or order grommets from https://www.ep-service.nl.

When you install the new grommets, you will clean the old springs, and set the escapement perfectly.  Check the strike line as well.

If the escapement is very low on those long tines, it is easy to get "double-strike" muting of the tine.  The tine swings down to touch the hammer tip while the key is still depressed.  You should be able to clearly hear this effect and feel it with your fingertips on your left hand through the keytops.

A little bit of tinkering, and Bald wirst du wie Richard Tee klingen.

Sean
#24

Miguel,

What preamp are you using?  When you say you swapped out the original Rhodes preamp for a VV preamp, exactly which preamp are you talking about?  Do you mean the passive tone and volume controls, or do you mean a powered preamp?  What power supply are you using?

You didn't mention turning up the volume on the preamp, so I fear you are just using the passive controls on a Stage piano.  In this case, I don't think that 13dB is a big deal, that isn't really much gain... 20log10(VoltageGain)=13, then Gain = 4.46.

Photos of your setup might clarify things for us.

Sean
#25

Kevin,

Splitting the harp will not get rid of the overtones, it will only allow you to EQ them differently - that is your intent, right?  That might be a good last resort.

I think the overtones can be reduced by changing the impact location of the hammer tip against those longer tines.  On a Rhodes, we call that adjusting the strike line.  I suspect that your hammers are hitting the tines too close to the base (anchored end) of the tine.  You want to induce a swing of the tine, not a standing wave along the length of the tine.  Are you able to move the strike point until you find the sweet spot? 

You did show your friend my split mod instructions at https://ep-forum.com/smf/index.php?topic=4730.msg52770#msg52770 right?

Sean



#26
LnWR,

Get yourself a 24-Volt power supply for that 4-pin Peterson preamp.  This is the VV cheekblock PS with the cable:
https://www.vintagevibe.com/products/fender-rhodes-4-pin-cheek-block-power-supply?variant=899468355

That is a $216 hefty investment, considering that you can't be certain your preamp is in working condition.  (You might have to get the preamp repaired, but maybe not.  Roll the dice.)  The cheekblock power supply will give you left and right outputs that you can run to a pair of guitar amps, or to a little [stereo] PA system.

If the leg mounts on the bottom of the piano are in good shape, you can buy the legs and cross braces from Vintage Vibe as well.  VV sells replica sustain pedals too (or you can easily build your own).

Sean


#27


I think that suitcase is unfairly overpriced.  That kind of money should get you an instrument that is living-room quality, and studio ready.

I wonder if the seller can't get the sustain pedal to work because he can't align the piano top in the right place without the support legs.

I also wonder if the vibrato LED was clipped out of the circuit to try to eliminate clicking...

In any case, I would be really sad to see anybody pay that much money for a piano in such unimpressive condition.  For $3900, you could get a Nord Electro 6 HP and a KC-200 amp.   Or a Korg SV-2 and a $1600 dollar Rhodes.  Or a Yamaha CP-300 and....

Sean
#28

The videos that Vintage Vibe and other folks post on YouTube are a good resource too.

This video shows them rip apart a Mark 1 that should look mostly identical to your piano:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mx9v0XQrk64

Or this one  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFXNUJ3qwKc

Then watch some of the simpler repair and adjustment videos, and you will understand the repair manual a LOT better.

Sean
#29

bbjam,

The Switchcraft 14B does not match the schematic for the Janus headphone output.
See the left side of this drawing:  https://www.fenderrhodes.com/org/ch11/fig11-3.jpg
Switchcraft doesn't seem to want to sell this jack as a standard configuration anymore. 

I would order a handful of CUI Devices P/N SJ-63023H (Mouser and DigiKey have them in stock).  However, it is disturbing that these jacks are rated for low voltage, and only 1A.  If the isolated switches can't take 4A (like the fuses), I guess this jack might fail regularly.

Anybody know of a high-current 1/4" jack (like SwitchCraft Z15J) that has two isolated switches?

BTW, you could also use these:
https://www.musikding.de/63mm-Stereo-jack-with-2-SPDT-switches
https://guitarelectronics.com/fender-9-pin-1-4-stereo-jack-for-guitar-w-dpdt-battery-switch/
Of course, I doubt they are anything special. 
If you search amazon for "fender battery jack" or "fender 9-pin" you will find similar/identical jacks.
_____ _____ _____ _____


The earlier Peterson headphone jack was indeed a Switchcraft 14B, as seen on https://www.fenderrhodes.com/org/ch11/fig11-10.jpg
This setup does not completely remove the speakers from the audio path, but they should get significantly quiet when the headphones are plugged in, thanks to the headphones in parallel with the speakers and the 330Ω resistor in series.

Sean
#30
Hey other Sean,

You should expect that the preamps are able to produce a "line level" output (I mean the stronger +4dBu level).  You can use the RetroFlyer or VV preamp to drive a power amp.  (They are made to replace the Rhodes preamps that provided plenty of gain, and fed the signal to the amp modules in the amp cabinet below.)  You can run either preamp into a keyboard amp (that expects synth outputs), you can feed it into a mixer, you can feed it into a "power amp in" insert on a combo amp, you can feed it into a "powered speaker."  You would NOT need the additional gain that a microphone input would provide.

However, you can directly contact either company and ask for more detail.  Morgen at Avion studios will probably return phone calls.  You can get Chris or Fred at VintageVibe too.  They all sometimes have time to read and contribute to our little forum here too.

Sean
#31
Wesley,

I think you should not spend anything near $500 without hearing with your own ears and knowing for sure that you will love the product and the sounds you can get with it.  I think it is hard for us to guess exactly what would be perfect for you.  There are still brick and mortar music stores in most cities... put a mask on and go in and test the gear yourself.  If there is something that seems like it might be what you need, bring your Rhodes into the music store and hear it for real. 

Checking out the available gear and trying different setups will also help solidify your understanding of exactly what you want and why.
If you have musician buddies, offer them a pizza if they will bring their mixer or speakers or amp over to your house to test for an afternoon.

For the Rhodes, personally: I don't like a tube preamp - it doesn't give me anything I want, and I don't need what it does best.  I don't want the "Fender tonestack" as an EQ, and I don't need tube breakup or overdrive.  (That's just me.)

I don't love any tube amp at low volume - that is not what they are made for nowadays (or ever?).  I mean, yes they can be very nice, but I don't need to pay extra just to get tubes, the heavy transformers, the heat - for low volume that only needs five or ten watts or so? no.  You don't need to reach the back table of the beer hall, so you don't need a Twin or JC-120. 

For low volume, I prefer to plug the Rhodes into the line input on any channel on a cheap desktop mixer, or the input on an all-in-one-powered PA.  (Works fine on my Mackie desktop mixers (without power amp).  I think it worked on my old Crate PA-6.)  The Mackie's (and Yamahas, and probably Alesis or Behringer) have plenty of gain and headroom, so you can get the Rhodes as loud as you want it.  The signal path is clean, and the EQ is useful (friendly and helpful enough).  I run the mixer into whatever size power amp and speaker combination that is handy, and I can usually get the Rhodes to sound very good to my ears.  Audio systems that are designed to reproduce full-range sound accurately are great for low-volume Rhodes.  Start flat and clean, then add effects and EQ until happy.

For Rhodes in a small practice room or studio, I prefer two small full-range (two-way) speakers six feet away from my face, and a bit of EQ.  I turn it up loud enough that the piano sounds good, then I usually cut back on the treble until the tweeter doesn't sound so obviously in my face.  If there is too much rumble or mud, I cut back on the bass.  I like the speakers far away enough to sound like a coherent sound field (with a little bit of room reflections); far enough away that they are not two point sources pointed directly at my ears. 

The mixers make it very easy to add effects to your sound.  You can get as fancy as you want: 
     - you can plug in your effects boxes before the signal path even hits the mixer, or
     - you can use the channel insert and a Y-cable, or
     - you can send the Rhodes out a pre-fader or post-fader "effects send" and come back into the mixer via the "effects return," or
     - you can come back in to the mixer through another channel input, which lets you EQ the return signal, and control the wet-dry ratio of the original signal and the "effected" signal. 
     --- Or do it multiple of the above ways.  Bring the signal from your phase shifter back via the effects return, but bring the output from your reverb simulator back into a channel strip so you can EQ it and very carefully control how loud the reverb is.

Newer versions of the small desktop mixers have a high-impedance input that is switchable on the first one or two channels.  (See the Mackie 802VLZ4, or ProFX 8 or 12.)  That Hi-Z input probably works well with the Rhodes.

All of the desktop mixers have a good headphone output.  Sometimes I use the mixer just so I can get three-band EQ in my headphones.  Yes, you can plug the mixer outputs into your "home stereo" system, that works fine.  And of course, the mixer makes it super simple to record from any of the outputs.
______

I would love to hear from MXR 10-band EQ owners.  Has anybody used it with a Rhodes?  It is not exactly a precision device - the travel on the pots is really tiny.  I would love to test one out to find out how broad or peaky the filters are, how truthful the +3dB and +6dB markings are, and to find out if I can make meaningful SUBTLE adjustments to tone.  I always thought that we were supposed to use the 10-band EQ pedal before or after our fuzz box to provide an alternate guitar distortion texture.

Wesley - can you try an EQ plug-in on your computer?  This will allow you to play with a parametric EQ easily, and play with a graphic EQ as well.  This will let you find the exact amount of mid-scoop that you need or don't need.  Find out exactly what frequency you want to manipulate for your room, or for your recordings.
______

If you had a VV Stereo Vibe, you would want to have it plugged into two separate powered speakers to get the stereo vibeness.

But you will find that a Mackie 802VLZ4 mixer is cheaper and more versatile.  Of course, it doesn't have that magic ping-pong tremolo, but it saves you enough money to buy effects units and other toys.

Sean

#32

Wesley,

Light surface rust doesn't seem to affect the tine sound at all from what I can tell.

I personally wouldn't use kerosene.  I wouldn't use sandpaper either - I dont think you want or need to scratch the surface where there isn't rust.  I have used scotchbrite pads, and that is enough rust removal for me.  If I wanted something more aggressive, I might resort to sandpaper.  (I don't want to bring steel wool anywhere near my Rhodes; but if you totally removed the tines from the piano, you could use steel wool in the other room, and clean off the steel wool dust laboriously.)

I like Evapo-Rust for rust removal, but I have not tried it on the tines themselves.

After you scrape the rust off, you should wipe each tine down with oil to discourage the return of more rust.  I have used 3-in-One oil.  I simply wipe it on, and wipe it off until it appears dry.  Then I re-install the tuning spring, and mount it in the piano.   

I don't use WD40 for two reasons - the overspray gets everywhere, and the solvents might damage the keytops, grommets, and hammer tips.

I really don't think the return of more rust is a problem, because the Rhodes will never ever ever spend another day in an attic, garage, car trunk, or utility closet.  If the Rhodes is kept in an air-conditioned house, the humidity will be low, and the Rhodes will last for centuries to come (maybe).

What does everyone else do about rust on the tines?  Anyone still using kerosene?

Sean
#33

Dear Dread Pirate Roberts,

You will be able to understand better if you read the service manual a few times:
https://www.fenderrhodes.com/org/manual/toc.html  (all the lingo is in there)
or
Vintage Vibe has a very complete version of the Service Manual that is all one PDF, so you don't have to jump around from link to link to follow the manual.  It is listed on their manuals page https://www.vintagevibe.com/pages/service-manuals
The direct link to the PDF is https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0666/2821/files/Rhodes_Manual.pdf

When you say "key escapement" do you mean "key dip" (the distance that the keytop travels when you push it down)?
See key dip in the manual at https://www.fenderrhodes.com/org/manual/ch4.html#4-1

On a Rhodes, the term "escapement" is taken to mean the distance from the top of the hammer tip to the bottom of the tine when the hammer is held in the stop-lock position by holding the key down.  The easiest way to adjust the escapement is to move the tine by turning the adjustment screws that hold the tine and tonebar in position. 

When making adjustments to escapement, you should start by setting the tonebar height at 3/8" (distance from bottom of the tonebar to the wood rail underneath).  The adjustment block you see in the videos is just a mounting block from an old broken tine - it just happens to be 3/8" square, and very convenient as a feeler gauge. 

See figure 4-3 and 4-4 at https://www.fenderrhodes.com/org/manual/ch4.html#fig4-3.  When you play with the tone bar adjustment screws, notice that you need to adjust the back screw to keep the tine pointing at the tip of the pickup, and the front screw to set the tonebar height.  Once you get it to the 3/8" "factory setting" height, then fine-tune each screw to provide you with your preferred escapement and desired tone (see figure 4-8 https://www.fenderrhodes.com/org/manual/ch4.html#fig4-8 for advice about tone/timbre setting).  If you have crushed or cracked grommets, you might not be able to get it set perfectly.  (When you install the new grommets, you will be very pleased with the new sound.)

If setting the tonebars to the 3/8" height still leaves you with huge escapement, then you might consider making course adjustments to escapement by removing shims from the harp supports.  Yes, you are allowed to remove the shim from the top of the aluminum harp support to reduce the escapement - even from just the left/bass side if needed.  Lots of folks find that they need to add more shims too.  Don't remove the shims until after you get the new grommets and hammer tips installed.

Make your final escapement adjustments after you get the new grommets (because you will be unscrewing the tonebars from the harp, cleaning away the wax, and re-installing the grommets, springs and tonebars), and until after you get the new hammer tips (because they may be different in height).

Take a good look at the service manual, and keep the questions coming. 


You have bested my giant,

Sean (who sadly looks like Vizzini)


#34


On the Stage 73, the three notes that are super quiet probably have dead pickups (and the sound you hear is being generated in the pickups on either side of that note.   Or, there is a tiny chance that those three notes have their pickups pulled very far away from the tines, or maybe those tines are missing a tuning spring.  I say tiny chance, because you would probably already have noticed.
You can confirm that a pickup is dead (or missing the magnet) by tapping the tip with a small screwdriver.  You should feel the magnet pull and hold the screwdriver.  With the Rhodes plugged into an amp at low volume, you should hear the screwdriver make a loud clank as the magnet pulls it in and hits itself on the nose.  Compare the dead pickup clank (silent) to a nearby pickup - ouch, loud.

On the 54, (is yours criss-cross wired?)... well, look at the wires that connect between the pickups.  The loop from the back terminals of the pickups is touching the loop from the front terminals... at pickup 3, and maybe also elsewhere.  Use your fingers to move the little loops of wire away from each other.

Yes you can buy new pickups and the leg repair parts. 
Vintage Vibe has pickups at https://www.vintagevibe.com/products/fender-rhodes-pick-ups
Leg parts at https://www.vintagevibe.com/products/fender-rhodes-front-leg-coupler

Sean
#35

Kevin,

I did not know Ida until a few days ago when the magic of a youtube search found her.  But it is cool that you are related.  I will pat myself on the back for the lucky guess.


A closer look at your second drawing has revealed a few concerns:




Here is a quick drawing showing how you should correct your drawing.




Sean

#36

M. Gotkovsky,

Is Ida your aunt, grandmother, or not related?

The pickup rail wiring in your drawing is almost perfect.  The rail will be hum-cancelling, because every group-of-three is paired with an adjacent group-of-three with hot-to-ground* reversed.  EXCEPT for those bottom four pickups!

* Think of the hot-to-ground direction as left-to-right (as in your drawing, and as in a Rhodes) for the whole series of pickups.  The topmost/rightmost group-of-three pickups has the tips toward ground, next group has tips toward hot; next group has tips toward hot, but next group left of that has tips toward ground, etc.  In your 64-note drawing, there are ten groups-of-three with tips toward ground, and ten groups-of-three with tips toward hot.  If an incident electro-magnetic wave induces a current from tip-to-tail (front-to-back) in each and every pickup, the currents will cancel where tips-of-three meet tails-of-three.  Except for that group-of-four pickups at the very left.

The obvious solution is to split that group-of-four into a pair of groups-of-two.  Then the whole 64-pickup rail will be hum-cancelling, humbucking, less noisy.  The group-of-two should be a tiny bit louder than a group-of-three, but you will compensate by moving the pickup a hemi-demi-semi-centimeter further back.
_____

Your volume pot is shown on the right side of the keyboard.  I would rather lift my left hand off the keys to fiddle with the volume, rather than interrupt my right hand from the melody to adjust the volume.  This might have simply been a matter of convenience in the drawing, so it might not actually be your plan.

*** [edit] ... Wait a second, I just tried it, and noticed that I most often do use my right hand to reach across to the left to tweak the volume knob!  So maybe putting the controls on the far right of the piano might be nice!  ***
_____

In your drawing, the long wire that goes from the leftmost pickup to all the way to the right is the hot wire.  This long wire may act as a little antenna, bringing some induced noise into the hot terminal of the volume pot.  The Rhodes also has the hot wire coming out of the left end of the harp, but the volume pot is on that laft side.  On a Rhodes, the long squiggly black wire that runs across the back of the harp is the ground wire.  Any induced noise in this wire will touch ground (and hopefully disappear in the power supply ground in whatever amplifier stage comes next).  The squiggliness of this ground wire also makes it a tiny bit less susceptible to EMI noise.  [I am surprised that Google Translate doesn't hiccup/hoquet on the word "squiggliness" and translates it as "ondulation."]

*** If you do wind up putting the controls on the right side of the piano, you should connect the rightmost pickup wire to hot, and the leftmost wire to ground.  This way, the long wire is still a ground wire.  ***
_____

I will bet you deux balles that you will prefer the 10K potentiometor to any other value for the volume pot.  Of course, make certain that you get an audio-taper (or logarithmic taper) pot, and NOT a linear pot.  (But I think you already know that, because your drawing shows it as "A10K.")  Make sure that you do your testing with the preamp or amp that you will most often use with your new piano.

Anyway, I tested a variety of potentiometer values and built a jig to make it easy to instantaneously switch from value to value.
See my comments at https://ep-forum.com/smf/index.php?topic=9793.msg54382#msg54382

All values of volume pot will allow you to get max volume and zero volume, but what made the difference for me is that the A10K pot felt more natural when trying to make volume adjustments while playing.  Smooth turn of the knob provided a smooth change in audible volume.  With the A50K pot, the volume drops off sharply from the maximum, so it is very hard to find the "just a little bit quieter" setting.  The A50K volume pot doesn't seem useful across the full range of fully ccw to fully cw.  The A250K and A1M pots were worse.

Also listen closely for differences in the tonality of various ranges on the keyboard with the higher-value volume pots.  Upper octaves might sound very different from what you prefer.

Anyway those are my thoughts.  I hope they are helpful, and can't wait to see and year your finished piano.

Sean

P.S. - I have used "hot" to refer to the audio signal-carrying wire, as distinguished from the ground wires.   I don't know if "hot" is universally used in this sense.  Does "fir chaud" make sense in French?
#37

And Furthermore...

In the first paragraph , the author gripes about having to cut all the bass from the signal... and then in the final paragraph specifically recommends that you modify the bass boost control to enable you to cut all the bass from the signal.

Personally, I accept none of the statements made in the first paragraphs as truths.

However, I am still interested to hear sound samples of the piano modified with all the caps across the pickup groups. 

Leander - Please can you post a few recordings before you remove the capacitors?

Sean
#38


Spulenschiene - could be translated directly as "Pickup Rail," but the diagram makes it clear that the author intends it to mean Pickup Mounting Bracket... I think I like "Mounting Tab" better.  The aluminum tail on the pickup assembly is called the "pickup arm" in the description following figure 6-1 in chapter six the service manual. 

I have corrected the translation above, and it sounds less crazy to bang the pickup mounting tab than the pickup rail, but still....

Don't do this.

Sean
#39
Here is my brother's translation of the German Music Fachblatt (trade magazine) article:


BELL SOUNDS FROM A FENDER RHODES

It has always been a difficult problem for pianists to get a good bell sound from a Fender Rhodes.  Either you had to strongly increase the highs (and/or presence) in the amplifier, so that the tones in the two top octaves sounded loud and shrill (and the amplifier noise was also more or less audible); or you had to turn off the lows to achieve a dry sound, but then did not get enough bass.  However, using a simple trick, you can create bell sounds surprisingly well in the piano itself, without preamplifiers, batteries, etc.

Just a soldering iron and some capacitors are needed.  If you remove the black cover from the piano, you can see the reeds and the individual coils under the golden resonators [tonebars].  The coils are connected as follows: coils are connected in parallel as units of three each (except on the far left, the first coils for the lowest notes (E, F, F#, and G) are connected in a group of four).  These units of three coils are connected again in series, and so forth. 

If you simply solder a capacitor parallel to each group of three, so-called "oscillating circuits" will result, which generates the bell sound, but does not make the overall sound shrill.  The capacitors must have specific values, but these items can be obtained in any electronics shop. 

Here are the values: 47nF for the lowest group of four as well as each of the subsequent ten groups of three; 0.1uF for the five groups of three from D to E; 27nF for the next four groups of three; 4.7nF for the highest four groups of three.  (nF means "nanofarad"; uF means "microfarad".) This produces the following order list for the electronics shop: 11 pieces 47nF, 5 each 0.1uF, 4 each 27nF, 4 each 4.7nF [plus one 6.8nF added in the last paragraph].

Make sure that you get the smallest possible models of each capacitor; these depend on the voltage load capacity: it is sufficient to tell the dealer that small voltage values would be especially good.  (Note: The 47nF capacitors may instead be labeled 0.047uF, and for 4.7nF you may see 4700pF, so don't panic.  If necessary, ask a fellow hobbyist among your friends). 

The capacitors should now be soldered to the coils (make sure to use a hot soldering iron, otherwise there will be "cold" joints, meaning ineffective solder connections).  The capacitors are best held on the coils with tweezers or needle-nose pliers, so that you do not come into contact with the tonebars. 

Two small corrections are then needed:
1.  By slightly lifting or lowering the gold tonebars, determine the position where the bell sound and the metal tongue sound are particularly audible.  For this purpose, use a Phillips screwdriver to turn the front Phillips screws a little.  Before doing this, of course, connect the piano to an amplifier (and increase the highs). 

2.  The coils for the last two octaves should be moved a little away from the reeds.  For this, you need a hammer and a small piece of wood.  The wood is held against the edge of the pickup mounting tab, and with light hammer strikes, the tab and pickup coil can be moved back.  As a result, the high tones lose their aggressiveness, and the bell sound is clearly audible, without distortions and clipping, even for the upper tones!  It is important that after the corrections, all of the notes in the entire keyboard have the same volume. 

Volume re-adjustments can be made on all notes according to the procedure described under (2).  The further the coil is moved backwards (away from the resonator/tine), the quieter the key will sound.  You can give a finishing touch to the whole thing by making a small adjustment to the bass control: disconnect the capacitor on the bass control, and replace it with a new one with the value 6.8nF.  As a result, you can reduce the bass very strongly (the bass boost control now has a stronger effect).  For example, if you turn the bass completely down, you can even connect the Fender Rhodes to a microphone or tuner input of a normal hi-fi amplifier, without any muddy or distorted sound.  This is very pleasant for practicing, such as when using headphones in the evening.




So, like, uhm... don't do this.

Sean

#40


Please note that I made that reply without even once mentioning the Town Musicians of Bremen.

DOH!  Now I ruined it.  Sorry.
#41
Hmmm... The old Unordentliche Masse von Kondensatoren mod!

Wow.  I have never seen the capacitors added to every group-of-three pickups.
I wonder if this was an attempt to make the attack on each note less percussive, or if it was an attempt to bypass the inductive load that every pickup group represents to every other pickup group.  Sadly, the capacitors bypass the local three pickups as they try to generate voltage and current to make the notes heard in the first place.

Maybe the capacitors were an attempt to minimize EMI.  Maybe the Rhodes lived in a place with lots of radio interference, and the owner tried to reduce the buzz.

Oh goodness, maybe the capacitors were an attempt to make the piano still generate sound when a complete group-of-three pickups are all dead.  The capacitor would bypass the dead group-of-three.

A prominent question would be:  What value capacitors are used?  I would expect that a very low value (a few picofarads) would be imperceptible and ineffective, and a very large value (say 100nF) may reduce the volume of the piano and make it sound muffled.  (Of course, I am totally guessing at these values, I have not tested this at all.)

If I were you, I would take a pair of sharp diagonal cutters, and clip every capacitor out of there.
____________________________

Splitting the harp into two sections is common.  Splitting the harp into more than two sections is uncommon.

See the split mod explanation here:  https://ep-forum.com/smf/index.php?topic=4730.msg52770#msg52770

This drawing shows the "groups-of-three" pickups more clearly:  https://ep-forum.com/smf/index.php?topic=10079.msg56091#msg56091


The wiring on your piano at the split point (three cables) shown in the photo implies that there is an additional split point higher up to the right.  Looks like they used coax cables, not twisted-pair microphone cable.

I have two pianos that have the harp split at E32/F33.  There are two output jacks on the faceplate, and a switch to choose if I want the harp split or not.  Works very well, and is musically useful.

The faceplate of my split-modded pianos looks like this:


Sean

#42

Very cool!   

Like https://www.fenderrhodes.com/org/manual/ch2.html but no keyframe.   Very neat to see the differences (the action rail aluminum extrusion is obviously very different, e.g.).

https://www.fenderrhodes.com/org/manual/fig2-3.gif is what I would compare to the second drawing.
The fig2-3 is obviously a Mark 1, because of the name rail, but has aluminum harp supports.  Your figure of the plastic-key Mark II shows the big hole in the side of the harp supports.  Really cool to see the differences.

Your images are much higher resolution than the other images I know of.  Pretty awesome to be able to zoom in to see the detail.

Thanks for posting.  I assume you found some awesome-quality brochure, and scanned these?  They look almost perfectly clean, with just a hint of yellow spots to make it clear that the sources was a paper manual.

Sean


#43

gacki -

Awesome!  Thanks.

Are you numbering the caps the same as in the link below?
https://ep-forum.com/smf/index.php?topic=8992.msg51947#msg51947

I ask, because your values for C3 and C4 are opposite of what Janne measured.

Sean
#44

Wow.  That's awesome.  The whole row of rewound pickups looks so pretty!

Was the turn counting device something as simple as the $15 counters from Amazon?

Like https://www.amazon.com/Electronic-Counter-Magnetic-Induction-Proximity/dp/B08X7D486J ??

I never noticed them before, now I wanna buy one!  I wonder if I saved all my dead pickups downstairs.  Hmmm... anyway -

Congrats.  Piano looks great.

Sean


#45


OH!  I just noticed https://ep-forum.com/smf/index.php?topic=10265.msg57985#msg57985

That explains the jumper.

Since you installed an IC socket for A2 (the op amp in the oscillator), why not try a new LM1458?

Also, have you been able to test the LDRs?

Sean
#46

No tremolo. 

The transistor is missing and the connections for emitter and collector are jumpered together.   And also no R26.  Hmmm...   Why?  Are the LDRs healthy?

Or has this been resolved since January?

Sean
#47

This is very cool!

When you get the bugs worked out for the full range of the piano,  I think I will want to buy a few sets of 73! 

There may have to be a minor adjustment for later key pedestals that have a factory "bump" implemented as a raised lip on the front of the pedestal.  But that would be a quick change to the drawing.

Hmmm... if the STL file were available online, this would easily justify the purchase cost of a 3D printer.

Sean
#48
MJ,

I always jump up and down about YOU MUST move the balance rail to the FRONT position.  I am surprised that you don't like it better than the back slot.

In my 1983 Rhodes (Suitcase top), the action was mushy and yucky with the balance rail in the back slot.  I am pissed that the factory chose to put it there. 

If you move the balance rail to the front position, the keysticks pivot in a location more like the wooden-key Rhodes pianos.  It made a world of difference in the playability and lovability of my plastic-keyed Rhodes.

Now, let's be clear here:  the plastic-key action still sucks in comparison to well-adjusted wooden-keyed Rhodes actions.  The plastic-key key bounce is hilarious, the clickety-clackety noise is impressive.  The action is still mushy.  It is like each key is a little too lazy to throw the hammers up with authority. 

It takes a few nights of introspection and 12-step acceptance, but you can eventually get comfortable with the plastic-key Rhodes.  Yes, it has a very unique action.  Yes, it has hateful damper felts installed by the factory.  But it has that cool all-black name rail!  AND IT SOUNDS LIKE A RHODES!!

So I love my 1983 Plastic-Key Rhodes.

Sean
#49
Dear Lydia,

You can move the harp any way you want, but it won't change the relationship between the key pedestal and the hammer cam... you mean that you want to move the action rail.  This won't be fun.  You can pull the keyframe and action out of the piano, and then you can get to the screws that hold the action rail from the underside.  There might be some slop in the holes, but probably not.  To make a real correction, you can either enlarge the holes in the keyframe, or re-drill new holes an inch to either side.  This is not too hard to do because the 1973 piano has a wooden action rail.  Finding the right position is the hard part.  If there are shims between the keyframe and the action rail, mark their position before you remove them.

It should be obvious that moving the action rail forward or backward will affect the feel of the action.

Don't push your keys into "aftertouch" - all you are doing is trying to break the flanges on the hammer comb that hold the hammers in place, or break the bumps off the hammer that hold it into the hammer flange.

Now, to be honest, I don't think I understand what you are trying to describe.





On my dear departed 1973 Fender Rhodes, the hammer cams did not come close to the front edge of the key pedestals.  They didn't touch the bevelled front edge of the key pedestal.  I always wanted to move the action rail, so that the keysticks would have a bit more leverage on the hammers, and lighten the action, but I stupidly sold the piano.  I still regret it.  Anyway, it is not obvious which direction would result in lighter action:  move the action rail forward, and the keysticks have more mechanical advantage; but the contact place on the hammer cam is closer to the pivot.  Maybe moving the rail way back, so that the pedestals contact the hammer cams further from the pivot would work.   Alas... I never got to test this out.

Service Manual:  https://www.fenderrhodes.com/service/manual.html
See chapter 2, 3, and 4: https://www.fenderrhodes.com/org/manual/toc.html

It is especially painful that nowhere in the manual does it tell us any method for precisely locating the action rail in relation to the balance rail, nor any spec for the front-to-back alignment of the hammer cams with the key pedestals.


Sean
#50

I specifically held back judgement, because I agree - the Rhodes sounds good.

Sean