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 hey pretty neat ideas!
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The Fender Rhodes Electric Piano / Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
« Last post by ummagumma on August 12, 2020, 07:14:09 PM »
 another thing: I don't think the amp Ray used was a twin. it looks too tall to me, and the top speakers are side-by-side. so I think it's a 4x10 silver face Fender amp? SF twins had the speakers mounted diagonally

*edit* I guess I am wrong about that! the amp by Jim's feet is a twin and the speakers are side-by-side. weird my '73 SF twin was diagonal
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The Fender Rhodes Electric Piano / Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
« Last post by ummagumma on August 12, 2020, 07:01:02 PM »
 ha! well it is interesting to speculate!

 why don't you ask your friend, to ask Robby what he remembers?

 a piano bass would be conspicuous on top of the MKI, especially as it's not in any of the pictures of the sessions in their LA workplace

 actually, I've always wondered where Robby's gtr amp was, as I think the amp by Jim's feet was a vocal monitor? maybe Robby had it in the other room? there is a darker Fender amp against the wall, but the other gtr player was plugged into it. and I saw an unused Twin beside the drum kit, against the wall on Ray's side
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The Fender Rhodes Electric Piano / Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
« Last post by Alan Lenhoff on August 12, 2020, 02:43:46 PM »
Even after listening to the track carefully -- and firing up my Piano Bass and my 73 -- I'll stick with my prior statement: "I don't know which instrument Ray used."  What makes the comparison most difficult for me is that my '72 Piano Bass with neoprene hammer tips doesn't sound like the '60's-vintage bass Ray typically used, probably with square tone bars and felt hammer tips.

For what it's worth, a friend of mine plays keyboards in Robby Krieger's band, and plays Ray's parts note-for-note. He says what he hears on ROTS is Ray playing the bass line on a Piano Bass, but an octave higher than the bass guitar to keep the bottom end from being muddy.  Is he right?  Well, he's got a great ear, but the recording was done decades before he was born, so he was hardly a witness.  So who can say?

Alan

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The Fender Rhodes Electric Piano / Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
« Last post by ummagumma on August 12, 2020, 01:56:18 PM »

 hmm, possible, but it doesn't sound like a piano bass to me: it has the fuller sound of a regular MKI to my ears?

 especially check out the 2 loud notes at 3:14 & 4:06 in that isolated track
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The Fender Rhodes Electric Piano / Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
« Last post by Alan Lenhoff on August 12, 2020, 08:30:38 AM »
The Rhodes chapter I wrote in "Classic Keys" tells who played bass on a number of Doors recordings (some are bass guitarists, some were done by Ray, and some had both).  This was mostly based on an interview with Robby Krieger, and supports what you are hearing: Light My Fire has both bass guitar (Larry Knechtel) and left hand bass.

The volume differences you noted of the left hand bass versus the lead may have resulted from Ray playing his bass lines on a Piano Bass, rather than playing the bass in the low register of the 73.  Stop me if I'm telling you something you already know, but the tone filter circuit on the name rail of a Piano Bass removes upper harmonics, creating a rounder, more mellow and fundamental tone than what you'd hear on a 73.  Bass played on a 73 is not nearly as effective.  (Although they both would sound identical if you took the signal from each instrument off its harp, bypassing its name rail.) I don't know which instrument Ray used for his bass lines on that song, but generally there would be a good reason to use the Piano Bass if you had both instruments available.

Alan

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The Wurlitzer Electric Piano / Re: Need Help Diagnosing a 200A
« Last post by sean on August 12, 2020, 01:13:27 AM »

Ethan,

I cannot stop giggling about this.  What part of "remove the death cap" would lead one to believe that I meant "replace the death cap with a piece of wire"?  I must therefore assume you were joking.  Well played.   And wait a second, that cap doesn't qualify as a death cap, because it doesn't have one leg touching ground.  Right?  It could fail to a short circuit, and that would blow the fuse, but not expose the chassis to the AC mains.   Hmmm... does that cap protect the neon bulb from kickback when power is turned off? I dunno.  Maybe I should not have recommended removing it.

You should absolutely positively buy the vintage vibe kit.  They have selected capacitors that meet the capacitance value, voltage rating, temperature rating, ESR, physical size, and sexual orientation (axial or radial leads).  What's it cost?  14 capacitors for 42 dollars?  Three bucks a component.  That's fair and resonable.

If you were experienced in selecting electrical components, you would not have asked the question.  It takes a long time to shop online for components (there are a TON of options, and a TON of specs to verify).  You can theoretically save a small bit of money buying all the components from Digikey or Mouser, but you have to get lucky and make all of the component selections correctly - so that you don't have to re-order any items that you got wrong (and pay for shipping again).  But whenever I am searching for components, I always stumble across an amusing option:  see https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/avx-corporation/SXP37C334KAA/478-6179-ND/2346149 (Prices like diamonds).  I see that the VV kit does not include the rectifier diodes.  Let's hope they are fine, and the lightning just blew the fuse.  Let's also hope that the transformer isn't damaged.

You also bring up a very good point - shame on me for not suggesting this first:  Yes, you should be careful while testing with the power turned on!  My advice is, uhm DON'T TOUCH ANYTHING!  There is a high voltage section coming off the transformer (blue wire).   See the schematic area just below the transformer.  The little ladder of capacitors and high-value resistors smooth out the high voltage and feed the high voltage to the reed bar (black wire).  Look closely at the circuitry in your piano and locate these components, and do not touch them. 

Now look at the upper left corner of the schematic where the connection labeled "18" comes from the little ladder and goes through the 1Meg resistor, then makes a turn through the 22K resistor over to the screw that connects to the reed bar.  Do not touch anything to the left of the .022uF capacitor.  These components are on the little circuit board mounted up on the reed bar.  Find them, and do not touch them.  Oh yeah, don't touch the reed bar either.

Also, while you are poking around with the probes from the multimeter, be careful.  It is very easy to slip and touch the wrong thing, because you set the probes in the desired position and then you turn your head to look at the meter readout.  Put the meter close, and on a secure surface, and don't tug on the probe wires or the meter falls over.

Oh yeah, and before you get into this, watch these videos:
1.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Fmpepn5e0c
2.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQtgS7C03ck
3.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLLme1Temmk  Oh my, they look so young.  It's a wurly, but not a 200A!
4.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aI7Y5Whjfe8  not any wurly, but....

Sean

Whoa!   VV has a much clearer 200A schematic as the install directions for their rebuild and hiss-killer kits. 
See https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0666/2821/files/Wurlitzer_200A_-_Rebuild_Kit.jpg
and https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0666/2821/files/200A_Hiss_Killer.jpg
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The Fender Rhodes Electric Piano / Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
« Last post by ummagumma on August 12, 2020, 12:21:13 AM »
 I have been trying to figure out the bass signal in this isolated recording: at first I thought it was just room bleed, or maybe he dubbed the bass seperately...it almost sounds like a different instrument compared to the right hand, since the level is drastically lower

  *edit* I just realized Ray is not playing bass at all, until 1 minute. but you CAN hear the bleed from the bass guitar up until then. afterwards you have the bass gtr bleed plus Ray's left hand

 but at 3:14 & 4:06 he hits a bass note that is almost as loud as the lead. So I think Ray was just playing the left hand much quieter than the right

 if they had an 8 track I doubt they would have split up the keys

  if vibrato was a footswitch, and that Fender amp is down by his feet, I'd think you might hear the click?

 I hear vibrato from the beginning of the track until 1 min. then it turns off

 and at 1:35 it sure kicks up! must have been a footwitch. then 1:58 switches off again. or maybe when they mixed it later on they added something?

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The Wurlitzer Electric Piano / Re: Need Help Diagnosing a 200A
« Last post by pianotuner steveo on August 11, 2020, 06:13:05 PM »
No! Do not replace the cap with wire! That is bad. If the cap shorts out, that's virtually the same thing as putting in a piece of wire. Just remove it. It is likely far easier in the long run to buy the kit from VV. Make sure you install electrolytic capacitors according to the correct polarity.

Someone was throwing out a 200A? Wow. I found a 120 waiting for trash pickup once, but never a 200A!

Yes, I rescued the 120. I'm kicking myself for not keeping it though.
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The Wurlitzer Electric Piano / Re: Need Help Diagnosing a 200A
« Last post by takumisrightfoot on August 11, 2020, 05:52:50 PM »
Hi Sean,

First of all, thank you for the wealth of information that you've provided me with. As a side note, I picked up the multimeter you suggested... you know, to replace the one I lost ;)

Just for some clarification on the points you specified, I have a few questions:

To get these replacement parts, such as the electrolytic converters and rectifier diodes, would it be best to just get one of the Vintage Vibe Wurli Amp Repair kits ($42) or source the parts individually? Should I replace the "death cap" with a piece of wire or just take it out? Lastly, when testing voltages (with everything plugged in) are there any precautions I should take to avoid electrocution/accidentally frying something?

Again, thank you for the help!

-Ethan
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