More Wurlitzer Dating Benchmarks

[Max Brink]

The Wurlitzer dating post at the top of the Wurlitzer forum suggests using the transformers to date the Wurlitzers and pins the Wurlitzer logo to "circa 1980" but there are a few other benchmarks throughout the production process that should be able to help narrow down the production years. Here are some benchmarks that I have come across. Hopefully with some collaboration we can help narrow down a few production periods for each of the models.


So here are few questions and a few ballparks that I feel can help narrow down the Wurlitzer production:

Wurlitzer 120 - There are two different Mounting brackets for the damper assembly. The first is identical to the 112A and the other can be assumed to be later in production. (I'll have to post pictures once I get my 112A out of storage...)

Wurlitzer 140/145 - Does anyone know what year they switched to the 140B? One of my most recent 140B's had the 140A damper assembly and knob configuration but I couldn't find a date stamp anywhere inside.

Wurlitzer 200 - Since they changed the 200 amp at least three times within just a 4 year span there must be a way to narrow down the years for each of the amplifiers within just a year or two. I usually consider the amp board with the fuse in the power amp to be "circa 1968" and the later style to be "circa '71/72," But don't know where to place the transitional amps. Besides the fuse giveaway the other thing that I look for is whether or not it has the D6 Diode in the preamp.

Wurlitzer 200A - For at least a short period of time the 200A's still used the 200 series alnico speakers which helps mark them as "circa '72" and as I mentioned at the top of the post the Wurlitzer logos can be pinned to "circa 1980." They still used the metal plates on the 3rd octave of the reed bar for a little while after switching to the 200A style speakers. At some point they had what must have been a very short run of alternate amplifier pc boards that were black and brown but I have not yet been able to date them. The amplifier schematic also labels the two outputs as "early production," and "late production" but does anyone know around what dates this switched over? Or can we narrow down the years that they used the silver .33uF caps in the power supply versus the red caps?


Does anyone have any other benchmarks that come to mind that would help narrow down production years?

[Max Brink]

And on another note does anyone know any of the pricing for Wurlitzers from the 1970's? I spoke with an original owner that claims to have purchased a Wurlitzer 200A in 1974 for $400 but that seems incredibly cheap compared to Rhodes prices at the time, doesn't it?

I attached a couple of photos from a 112 that we just picked up for restoration. It does not have the pricing for the piano itself but has some of the accessories listed.

[pianotuner steveo]

I believe the MSRP in the '70's for a 200A was $599. About 90% sure. (This is according to a friend of mine who worked in a music store that sold them, but I am relying on his memory)

I can also add that only the very last 200A's had the metal Wurlitzer logo facing the audience. The exact year, I do not know, but roughly 1980/81

The 140 came out in 1962, from everything I have read.

[Max Brink]

I believe the MSRP in the '70's for a 200A was $599. About 90% sure.

Can this really be true? I had an original Wurlitzer owner come though the shop that said he though he spent only around $500 for a 200 but he didn't seem totally confident and that caused me to doubt that story... Is this true that a Wurlitzer could be sold  30-50% cheaper than a Rhodes sold in the same time period? The craftsmanship in a Wurli seems that it should be way more expensive than a Rhodes... But then again the quality control from either shop doesn't seem to suggest that either was given the level of service either instrument deserved...

The 140B came out in 1962, from everything I have read.

...I thought that the 140/145 was introduced in '62 and that the 140B/145B was introduced later. Was the 140B introduced in the same year or am I incorrect in my understanding of the Wurlitzer history?

The 120 action change was circa 1958.

...My understanding was that the 120 was introduced in '58(?). The action change that I am describing is the mounting of the sustain mechanism that happened somewhere after the 120 was introduced because I have seen 120's with identical mounting to the 112A...

[pianotuner steveo]

I thought the 120 was introduced in 1957, but I may be off by a year. The change maybe was 1959.


This could be wrong, but I believe this to be the timeline: 1954 model 100 (We all know this is true,it says so in the service manuals) 1955:Models 110 and 111. 1956 model 112.  1957 112A & 120 ( but that could be wrong) the 112A and 120 had the same action. Cabinets were different. I think the amps were different too. The model 700 ( spinet style of the 120) was 1959-1962, I believe. The 720 (spinet style of the 140) was available from 1962-1965(?)
I think the 140B was available from 1962-1967(?), then the 200 (nonA) took over in '68.

Every documentation I ever read said that the solid state amp on the 140B was introduced in 1962. I seem to remember that the 140/145 was offered at the same time for people to have a choice of solid state or tube amps. I do not know of a 145B. What was that model? Do you mean the 146 student model?

I have a friend that worked in a big music store in the area, and he told me the MSRP was $599. I am only going by what he said. Of course stores could sell them for a lower price if they wanted to...

[Max Brink]

That seems pretty much as accurate as I can fact check but perhaps someone else will have more to add???

The only details that I would add are that I can confirm that the 112A has the 112 amp in the same body as the 111/112.

And also that the 720 is analogous to the 145 while there was also a 720B that is analogous to the 140B... The 720's that I have come across all have the 12" speaker but the 720B had a 4x8" speaker.

The 145B model that I came across had the identical amp to the 145 but the shorter damper assembly that you find in the 140B.

[pianotuner steveo]

Ok, the one and only 720 I ever had (briefly) had the 12" speaker.i paid $40 for it, sold it or a few hundred! Today it would be worth at least $800...

I have never seen a 720B

I have a huge stack of paperwork from Wurlitzer that I need to look through. There may be some more accurate dating details there.

I have photos of the 100,110, and 111, I thought the cabinet was different than the 112. Maybe it is just the music rack?

I have never owned or serviced any models prior to the 120, but used to play 112's in High School.
When the School stopped using them, I attempted to buy them, but they said no. I now tune the pianos there, but the current staff was not there when they were disposed of. I am almost certain that they tossed them into the dumpster.......

[DocWurly]

My best guesses:

http://paleophone.net/?page_id=923

[bbs120]

I was going to ask if there was any sort of way to date via serial number.  Did Wurlitzer keep any sort of production records that would link a serial number to a specific timeframe?

[pianotuner steveo]

Regarding the pricing: Max, I was saying the MSRP, not what stores actually sold them for, and that is based on a friend's memory who sold them.

[DocWurly]

By the way, this other thread where I posted a bunch of ads from the 1950s through the 1970s, will give a decent idea of their prices through time.

http://ep-forum.com/smf/index.php?topic=8254.0

[DocWurly]

I was going to ask if there was any sort of way to date via serial number.  Did Wurlitzer keep any sort of production records that would link a serial number to a specific timeframe?

I would so love to know that!  I wonder if Morelock's could help.  Schematics and notes that the company put out sometimes make mention of particular serial numbers....but those can be confusing, because a schematic dated 1965 might refer to a run that started in 1962.  Also, the numbers are not entirely sequential.  My best guess --based on official schematics and released "notes"-- is that the 140s started in 1962 at #25001, and the 145s started simultaneously at around 30177.  There are early 720s from before January 1963 whose numbers start at 40401. (we know this from an official "note.") There are some 140Bs around #29808 that are certainly produced a few years later (say, 1966, or possibly 1965) than the 1962-era 145 and 720 models which come next in series.  And then some later 140Bs start around 32280, which is just a couple hundred later than a certain 145A, and a few hundred before a couple of 145B's.

So, models had chunks of numbers allocated to them, and things get jumbled and intertwined.

And what of later 200s, or 200A's, with an "L" at the end of the serial number?  Or a 112A with a "P"?

[DocWurly]

[UPDATE, OCT 2016:  SEE CORRECTIONS LATER IN THREAD.  I've modified my understanding of this.]

I spelled this out in another thread.  But as it is not spelled out here, I think it's important to clear this up.

There were 3 different basic periods of the early 60s, post-120 Wurlitzers.

By late 1962:  140 (solid state), 145 (tube), 720 (tube, console).  These are not the "A" versions, nor are they the "B" versions.

Then, by mid-1964, the "A" series was introduced:  140A (solid state), 145A (tube), 720A (tube console), maybe 146 (apparently no "A"....Classroom, solid state)

Then, around 1966 and going until early 1968:  The "B" series:  140B (solid state), 720B (solid state console), 145B (tube), 146B (classroom, solid state)

***

The first of these series had an improved action over the 120s, but used reeds similar to 120s above the bass register. Bass reeds seem to be unique.

The "A" series seem to have similar amps to the first series.  Main difference is the introduction of the general reed compatibility style that was retained until the end, 1983 (with some differences over time and over individual runs of models).

The "B" series featured shorter dampers, improved reed screws, knobs moved to cheek block in portables, and, in the various solid state models, a completely overhauled and improved amp.

So, to confirm, any "B" model is from later.  Probably 1966 on.  Possibly 1965, probably not.

[DocWurly]

Dating the start of the 120 Wurlitzer:

I just worked on a 120 with serial number 10034.  Grey sandstone/flecktone style. The harp in it was early.  It had two bricks at the top, and the masking tape on the back of the harp said "1/16/57."  That's the earliest date I've seen for a 120, so that is interesting in itself!  My timeline has 112A's, the prior model, seemingly still the current/most recently released model in October 19, 1956 (based on note #7).  We knew already that there were 120s by May 21, 1957, because of Wurlitzer's note # 9, which mentions them.

I am a little suspicious, though, of that serial number.  The earliest 120 serial number I know of is 8999, which seems to be a cream-colored wood-textured look, with a picket fence style music stand.  (there could be earlier ones.)  Might they have made 1035 of them in just a couple of months?  I think it is possible that this is an early harp Frankensteined into a body from the following year....or, that someone wrote "57" when they meant "58"...a common January error.

But...hmmm....

#16217 is from  November 28, 1958 (similar dating, using tape on the harp).  Assuming there aren't gaps in the numbering:  Between November, 1956 and November, 1958, #16217 - #8999  would be 7218 120's produced, or 300 produced a month. In fact, if they started making these in October, 1956, that would be right on for the dating of the January 1957 Wurly, and its serial number.

Of course, there could have been many more before #8999.  The last 112A I've seen online is #7200.  16217-7200 = 9017, or 375 produced per month in 2 years.

It is also possible that different body styles of 120's were being produced at the same time, with ranges of numbers allotted to them.  So, the cream-woodish ones could have started at, say, 8500, the sandstone/flecktone ones could have started at 9500, and the brown mahogany/cherry ones (which, Steveo?) could have started at 10500....which, given some evidence I've seen, may be extremely accurate.  If so....the numbering might not be strictly chronological.

[DocWurly]

By the way....this may reflect my general unfamiliarity with 120s, but in this one at least, the dampers in the low end had MUCH heaver springs (more resistance) than in the upper end.  The heavy springs were on, maybe, the first 25-27 notes (more than just the 20-note bass register).  Visually, it was subtle.  Feelingwise, anything but. It makes sense, given the greater excursion of the reeds in the lower end, but I did not notice this in the November 1958 120 I worked on.

[pianotuner steveo]

In all wooden piano actions, the action in general gets lighter as you move up the keyboard. It is partly to do with hammers getting smaller as you go up, and partly to do with no dampers in the highest section. I don't think your springs are heavier in the bass, but the damper lift adjustment may be set differently on the keys that feel heavier.

[DocWurly]

Hm!  Well, the difference in the upper ones is that lifting the damper off the reed, the damper feels unresistant, "light."  In the lower ones, it feels very resistant, very "springy" and therefore had the effect over my finger of being heavier.  As this resistance is controlled by the spring, I assumed that it was set by the spring.  I'm not engaging the damper lift as I do this, in fact I'm pulling it up from the lift.  The wire even looks a little thinner on the upper ones, though I admit I could be fooling myself.   (wish I'd had a micrometer with me...)

They could also have reduced the resistance by bending the upper springs back, or added it by bending the lower ones into more of a curve, but it doesn't appear that they did.  But....maybe they did.  I'd like to see if I notice this same tendency on any other 120's, so I am going to keep an eye out in the future.

These dampers are all the same length, of course.  The pads move a little closer to the tip, in stages, as one moves up the keyboard, and perhaps different-shaped pads were used.  (Hard to tell on this one because pads are in such bad shape, and some are replaced).

This is a early 120.  My hunch is that later, they may have used the same dampers on all of them.

[pianotuner steveo]

I was speaking of piano actions in general, not this specific action. I no longer own a 120, so I have no way to look myself. It is possible that the bass springs are heavier, but I don't remember for sure.

Do you mean lifting them with your fingers?

[DocWurly]

Yes!  Lifting them with my fingers, off the reed.  and it wasn't a gradual change.  At some specific note, they were suddenly lighter.  Probably close to middle C.  I can confirm when I go back.

[pianotuner steveo]

Then that must mean the springs do get lighter. I thought you meant the action felt lighter as you played from left to right.

[DocWurly]

OK.....  I am updating from my earlier post:

I spelled this out in another thread.  But as it is not spelled out here, I think it's important to clear this up.

There were 3 different basic periods of the early 60s, post-120 Wurlitzers.

By November 1962, but possibly as early as April or July 1962:  140 (solid state), 145 (tube), 720 (tube, console).  These are not the "A" versions, nor are they the "B" versions.

(November 1962 is when the first known ads appear, in the New Yorker.  April and July are dates on schematics.)

Then, by mid-1964, but possibly early or mid 1963, the "A" series was introduced:  140A (solid state), 145A (tube), 720A (tube console), maybe 146 (apparently no "A"....Classroom, solid state). 

(There is a 140A whose vibrato pots date from January 1963.  Of course, they could have been sitting around for a while.  August 1964 is when the alarmed memo about cracking washers appears.)


Then, by December 1964 and going until early 1968:  The "B" series:  140B (solid state), 720B (solid state console), 145B (tube), 146B (classroom, solid state).

(I have a man who bought his 145B in December 1964.  It is an extremely early one, only 200 numbers later than a 145A with cracked washers.  So it was produced between the time of that August memo and the time it arrived in a Detroit music store.)


***

The first of these series had an improved action over the 120s, but used reeds similar to 120s above the bass register. Bass reeds seem to be unique.   A battery pack can be used with the 140 amp.

The "A" series seem to have similar amps to the first series.  Main difference is the introduction of the general reed compatibility style that was retained until the end, 1983 (with some differences over time and over individual runs of models).

The "B" series featured shorter dampers (eventually), improved reed screws (eventually, although early ones may have used 120-style screws), knobs moved to cheek block in portables (with a possible exception here and there, perhaps to use up old lids), and, in the various solid state models, a completely overhauled and improved amp.  The battery pack option only seems to be available on the earliest of these 140B amps.  (Not all of the amps look exactly the same.)

So, to confirm, any "B" model is from later.  By late 1964 on.

[pianotuner steveo]

Ok, but the date on the schematic for the solid state model is 1962. Does that just mean that it was designed in 1962?

[DocWurly]

Steve-o....

There were several solid state models in this era.
140 was 1962. 
140A was 1963 or early 1964, and used the same amp as the 140. 
140B and 720B used a new amp called a 140B amp.  This debuted in late 1964.

Simultaneous with each of these models, they offered a tube amp version.  The amp in all of the tube models was the 145.  The changes in the tube amp over time were negligible (apparently), or at least not so severe that they felt a need to change the model number.

145 and 720 were 1962.  Each used the 145 tube amp.
145A and 720A were 1963 or early 1964, and used the same tube amp.
145B debuted in late 1964, and it still used the 145 tube amp with only slight, gradual random updates, and they continued calling it the "145 amp."

There was also a 146 and/or 146B student model, and perhaps a 147 teacher model (or an online myth?).  Solid state, at least in the 146B.


BTW.... there exist later schematics for all of these, and I think that confuses things.  There are schematics from 1965, 1966, even 1974.  I guess they kept correcting and changing things.

[DocWurly]

In regards to serial numbers:

My best guess is that they started the 140 series at 25001.
They started the 145, simultaneously, at either 30001 (a guess) or at 30177 (found in a schematic).
They started the 720 console at 40001 (a guess) or by 40095 (a known example).

Then, when the switchover to the A's happened quite shortly thereafter (maybe a mere 1000 of each of those 3 pre-A's varieties was produced), each of these three lines just continued in their pattern.  So there's a 140A at 26450, and a 145A at 31299, and a 720A at 41595. 

Same thing happened with the B line, starting in late 1964, after not many of the A's were produced.  There is a 140B at 27501 (according to a schematic), and a 145B at 32253, and a 720B at 42246.

This means that the numbers are not chronological. Those early 145's have higher serial numbers than some 140B's, but were produced earlier by a couple years.  They had merely differentiated each series by making the first digits 25, or 30, or 40.

Now, things get very confusing eventually, because the 140B's run out of numbers.  They bump into the 145 numbers at around 30000.    [Edit.... this next part may be a little wrong.] There is a 140 B at 29808.... and then they just start randomly weaving in amongst the 145B and 146B numbers.  So by 32280 (a 140B) it's just a free for all between the various portable B models, regardless of their amps.  The last 140B I know of is at 38598, so it never runs into the 720 numbers.

The 720s start around 40001, and the latest 720B I know of is 42246.  The earliest 200 number I know of is 49387.  No idea if any numbers are skipped.

Got that?

[EDIT]
Actually..... That 140B number I listed at #32280 may be WRONG.  I got it off a very poor photo.

It may well be that the 140B's restart around 34614, and that the various tube 145's to 145B's only span from 30001 (or 30177) to around 33429.  In which case.....there may only be around 3500 of the various 1960s tube portables produced, period.  Plus another 2000 console tube amp versions in the 720 and 720A lines.

[cinnanon]

Do you have this on a spreadsheet?  I'd like to try and make a Gantt-type chart out of it so we can see it visually.

[DocWurly]

I do.

[DocWurly]

One interesting potential result of figuring out the serial numbers:  We might be able to figure out how many of a given model were ever produced.

By this token, certain models had surprisingly small productions.

The ranges of the 3 versions of the 145, going only by the data I have collected so far, and assuming there are no gaps in the ranges:

145:    680 (absolute min) to 1298 (absolute max)
145A:  786 (absolute min) to  1396 (absolute max)
145B:  1177 (absolute min)  or 1345 (distance from last known 145A to last known 145B) to 2529  (absolute max, based on distance from last known 145A to known restart of 140B numbers)

The current range of known 145/A/B related numbers is 3252.
The current range of possible 145/A/B related numbers before they are interrupted by a known other model is 4437.

[pianotuner steveo]

The only thing is, we do not know how consistent Wurlitzer EP serial numbers were. Acoustic piano serial numbers are almost always sequential. Lower numbers are older, higher numbers are newer. I've read that Wurlitzer wasn't always using this method for EP serial numbers. It would be interesting to make the chart and see, however.

[DocWurly]

They definitely WEREN'T sequential, but they were apparently somewhat sequential within ranges, and that's my point. So, a 720 marked 40200 is probably from roughly the same month or two as a 145 marked 30200.  But a 145B marked 29100 is from 3 or 4 years after that 145 marked 30200, because it's using up the numbers in its earlier earmarked/reserved range.

At times it appears they double back and use up ranges of earlier numbers.  So the 146 has later numbers than the 146B.  But... but.... on the other hand, it's possible that the 146 is a later name for the 146B, since they seem essentially the same (same later solid state amp, the 140B).  oy, it gets confusing.

Wanna be more or less confused?  Read my chart again.

http://paleophone.net/?page_id=923

[cinnanon]

I have 2x 200A's that are 8 serial numbers apart.  I haven't checked the keybed on the 2nd one yet.  That should be the best indicator of mfg. date right?

They are both early 200A's because of the Aux Output circuit as well as the welded brackets that mount the 200 style speakers are present, but obviously pressed flat against the amp rail (and slightly distorting the amp rail). The speakers are different styles though.

[DocWurly]

The date stamp on keybed seems utterly random!  Some have it, many don't.  Unless I've just been missing these stamps all over the place.

Other than that, you can get a general sense (at least of earliest possible date) from stamps on speakers, transformers, and volume/vibe pots.  That people are using speaker numbers to date these is a new one to me.

It does sound, indeed, like you have a couple of VERY early 200A's.  Mind sharing the serial numbers?

[cinnanon]

Yeah 88659 and 88668