Greetings!

[PaulHelmuth]

Hello to all.

I am new to The Electronic Piano Forum - and this is my first post.

I came to own an old "Stage" model several years ago. It is basically functioning (at least it was the last time I plugged it in). It just has several tines missing and the "case/enclosure" is shot. It's also missing the legs and sustain pedal assembly, but those seem easy enough to replace.

Anyway - I finally have the urge to restore this old classic to very good/excellent condition and I figure the folks on this forum are likely to be some of the best resources that I could possibly find.

The first thing I want to attack is building a new case/enclosure. I assume that's relatively straight forward and fairly common. But I haven't found many references by way of Google.

Anyone know of any good links with information regarding this task? Is it so straight forward that no one has felt the need to document/post? Or perhaps I just haven't managed to find the right search terms.?.?

Anyway - looking forward to participating in the community for the next few months - and getting to know some of you.

Kind Regards,
-Paul

[OZDOC]

Try this article.

http://ep-forum.com/smf/index.php?topic=5136.0

It is not usually necessary to build a new case from scratch - even extensive repairs to an existing case can be hidden by re-tolexing and black stain.

David

[PaulHelmuth]

Try this article.

http://ep-forum.com/smf/index.php?topic=5136.0

It is not usually necessary to build a new case from scratch - even extensive repairs to an existing case can be hidden by re-tolexing and black stain.

David

David - thank you for the link!

Fair point about not necessarily needing everything new from scratch.

I will have to see what I think about the integrity of everything after I get a chance to disassemble to that point. I just want everything to be good and solid when I'm finished.

-Paul

[pianotuner steveo]

Hey, welcome to the forum. If there is a way for you to show us pictures of the cabinet damage, we should be able to point you in the right direction. I agree that you likely do not have to replace the whole cabinet unless it has severe water damage.

Be prepared, it sounds like you will have quite a (fun) challenge ahead. It can get expensive too, so don't just start buying parts unless you are positive that you need them.
I recommend getting all new grommets, and of course the missing tines. After that, you will find things as you go that you will need to replace.

[PaulHelmuth]

Hey, welcome to the forum. If there is a way for you to show us pictures of the cabinet damage, we should be able to point you in the right direction. I agree that you likely do not have to replace the whole cabinet unless it has severe water damage.

Be prepared, it sounds like you will have quite a (fun) challenge ahead. It can get expensive too, so don't just start buying parts unless you are positive that you need them.
I recommend getting all new grommets, and of course the missing tines. After that, you will find things as you go that you will need to replace.

PianoTuner Steveo,

Thanks very much!

Yes, I will post some pics of the cabinet damage. I just started disassembly, and pulling the tolex off of the lid, I can see why things were so "sloppy". Wood appears to have suffered some extensive water damage. Thus the structure of the wood seems to be pretty well shot.

None the less, I'll be happy to post pics.

As poor as the case is, I don't think the piano is too bad. But I'm sure there will be more there than I can see.

Will post case pics later (probably sometime today).

-Paul

[PaulHelmuth]

Okay - so, the piano is a late '73 (week 42).

Let me see if I can insert some pics...











The lid / top is really falling apart - and the base / bottom isn't any better. I like the idea of just repairing (vs scratch build). But I don't think any of this wood is up to the challenge.

-Paul

[OZDOC]

Certainly looks like it has been sitting on its back in water.
So you are right about a case rebuild - in particular this wood looks like it has grown some mould. Once this occurs it is nearly impossible to kill the spores, so the case will always smell mildewy.
You need to be sure you don't use any of the old wood that is affected - it will contaminate your new case.

David

[PaulHelmuth]

Certainly looks like it has been sitting on its back in water.
So you are right about a case rebuild - in particular this wood looks like it has grown some mould. Once this occurs it is nearly impossible to kill the spores, so the case will always smell mildewy.
You need to be sure you don't use any of the old wood that is affected - it will contaminate your new case.

David

Thanks David.

Won't be hard to not use any of the old - as it's in such poor condition.

Any idea if there are any commercially manufactured cases that a Stage 73 will drop in to? Or anyone that repros the original style cases?

-Paul

[OZDOC]

I don't know of anyone that would have made any cases speculatively. Obviously most of the major vintage key repair places have the ability to make replacement cases or subcontractors who can.
If you have to buy such a case you will rapidly find yourself in cost territory where it would be far more sensible to buy a Rhodes in better condition to work on.
If you are going to do all the work yourself it is a different matter as you can justify it as hobby time and skills acquisition.
There are a lot of Rhodes pianos out there for not much money. Your internal hardware would need to be exceptionally clean to make buying a custom made case worthwhile.
And if it has been sitting in a damp case for any period of time this is unlikely.

[rhodesjuzz]

I know ep-service in the Netherlands produced a few. I have seen 1 or 2 standing there in a corner. Might be interesting enough t inform?!
Good luck

--Roy

[PaulHelmuth]

I know ep-service in the Netherlands produced a few. I have seen 1 or 2 standing there in a corner. Might be interesting enough t inform?!
Good luck

--Roy

Roy,

Thanks. I'm a little surprised that someone isn't making them here - given the popularity of the pianos.

I recently restored (re-capped and other repairs) a 1967 Vox Super Beatle - and found a company (North Coast Music) that is reproducing the original enclosures. Not only for the amp heads, but also for the large speaker cabinets. 

I'm sure the Rhodes Stage is more popular with greater numbers than those old solid state Beatle amps. But maybe the Stage cases don't generally deteriorate as badly as the one I have.

Looks like I will be building a new case from scratch. Which is okay - that's what I was figuring before I got started. But I'd rather spend time working on the actual piano parts.

Here is the finished Super Beatle...

[rhodesjuzz]

You're right about that:)
You did a great job on the Vox, so the rhodes case won't be a problem!

[PaulHelmuth]

You're right about that:)
You did a great job on the Vox, so the rhodes case won't be a problem!

Thanks RhodesJuzz.

The Vox turned out great. But (almost) all of the work I did on it was on the inside. I can't take too much credit for that beautiful cabinetry. That came from North Cost Music.

I replaced all of the the electrolytic capacitors, cleaned pots and switches (standard service), and tweaked some resistor values that were causing a transistor biasing problem in the mixer/limiter section of the pre-amp. That was the super-tricky part. As I am not an amp tech. I am a software engineer.  But I do build vacuum tube guitar amps as a hobby and have done some other EE type work.

That Super Beatle is an amp that I gigged around the Detroit area back in the early 80s. I'm planing to use the Super Beatle with the Rhodes.

I should do okay with the Rhodes case though (I think).

-Paul

[Ben Bove]

Just a question, but before getting into the case rebuild on this piano - how are the wood keys and the wood internal frame of the piano?  The piano itself is its own modular unit - removed from the case it has its own wooden frame, housing a wooden action rail and wooden keys.  Your era has a lot of wood inside.

I would remove the name rail that goes across the keys, and pull a few keys out in different sections.  Check to see that the sides of them aren't laden with mold.

[PaulHelmuth]

Just a question, but before getting into the case rebuild on this piano - how are the wood keys and the wood internal frame of the piano?  The piano itself is its own modular unit - removed from the case it has its own wooden frame, housing a wooden action rail and wooden keys.  Your era has a lot of wood inside.

I would remove the name rail that goes across the keys, and pull a few keys out in different sections.  Check to see that the sides of them aren't laden with mold.

Ben,

Thanks for asking. I really appreciate all of the help.

I have most everything disassembled and no mold visible on any of the piano bits. I'll post some pics later (after work).

As you can see by the pictures of the case, it clearly suffered water damage - and there is mold in some of that wood. But mostly what would be the "bottom". It must have been sitting someplace where it got wet with some frequency - or stayed wet for some time. Hence the mold. However, it hasn't been wet in the years that I have have owned it. Thankfully, the mold seems limited to the case.

I'll post pics of the internals so everyone can have a look.

Thanks again!
-Paul

[Ben Bove]

That's great news.  I'd hate to see you go through the effort of rebuilding a case, only to wrestle with a wood-swollen piano bed that would never play well.  Keep us posted

[PaulHelmuth]

So, Here are a couple of pics of some of the wood interior. Will post more later - but wanted to get a couple posted this eveing as promised (though later than I intended)

Here is the lowest key on the 73. #8. It has an interesting (to me) date stamp and probably inspection stamp that the other keys do not have...



And here are a couple of pics of the "base frame" (not sure what the proper term is). It has been vacuumed up, but not really cleaned here. But all of the wood looks as clean as the key.





-Paul

[Ben Bove]

You sure got lucky there I would have expected the metal key pins to be corroded as well, but the piano looks clean in comparison to that case.

Only thing I notice is that the left harp support block (that the harp sits on) has a number of black shims on it.  Usually in that vintage, there may be one (like on the right block), or none at all.  When you put the piano back together, you'll definitely want to measure the escapement in the bass register.  My initial thought is you won't be able to play soft notes down there, and the action may be heavy.

[PaulHelmuth]

You sure got lucky there I would have expected the metal key pins to be corroded as well, but the piano looks clean in comparison to that case.

Only thing I notice is that the left harp support block (that the harp sits on) has a number of black shims on it.  Usually in that vintage, there may be one (like on the right block), or none at all.  When you put the piano back together, you'll definitely want to measure the escapement in the bass register.  My initial thought is you won't be able to play soft notes down there, and the action may be heavy.

Ben,

Thank you for mentioning that. That sort of set-up and adjustment stuff is where I will likely need the most help. But It will be a little while before I get that far.

First I need to complete the basic refurbishment. I ordered the complete referb kit from Vintage Vibe plus the missing tines, key shims, and tone-bar spring kit. Also ordered replacement repro cheek blocks - as the ones on mine are very badly burned from cigarettes.

I haven't started on the case yet - other than disassembly and assessment. I may stick with the piano referb until I get that mostly complete before I actually start on the case.

Again, many thanks for your comments and observations!

-Paul 

[PaulHelmuth]

So, I have just been working on cleaning things up, while waiting for my referb parts (from Vintage Vibe) to arrive. They would be here, except for the two feet of snow that fell on the east coast early this week. 

I have been cleaning pickups, tone-bars, blocks, tines. Prepping the harp frame and brackets for paint (would rather plate, but weighing convenience, cost, and benefit, I decided paining was my choice). Also cleaning up and repairing some key caps.

Judging by the number of cigarette burns and the condition of the case, I think this piano led a full working life before it met me. 

But as you guys know - you can do a LOT to save the keys without having to replace. I will be able to have all of mine looking better than new - except for this one...



This was by far the worst damage. Though here (about 95% done) you can see that the remaining damage won't be that distracting - and will pay tribute to it's once hard life.

I'm sure a good piano tech could fill this and make it like new, but I'm happy with leveling out the high spots (it was LARGE) and getting all of the discoloration out. And since the damage is so far up the key, I don't think it will be much of a distraction while playing. But I'm a guitar player, what do you guys think?

-P.

[eighty8]

I'm sure a good piano tech could fill this and make it like new, but I'm happy with leveling out the high spots (it was LARGE) and getting all of the discoloration out. And since the damage is so far up the key, I don't think it will be much of a distraction while playing. But I'm a guitar player, what do you guys think?

I've play one a LOT of pianos/keyboards/Rhodes/Wurlis with damaged keys, and something like this wouldn't bother me at all. I probably wouldn't even notice after a few passes, to tell the truth. If you're worried about the cosmetics that's one thing, but this is not a playability issue at all.

Congrats and good luck!

[David Aubke]

What OZDOC says about mold may be true but I'd actually try to salvage that cabinet. When I encounter mold/mildew/fungus, after sanding the cabinet down, I soak the growth areas with a generous spraying of hydrogen peroxide and leave it out in the sun to dry. A little online research has left me believing that has the best chance of killing stuff beneath the surface.

Here's a story about a particularly extensive repair on a cabinet of the same vintage as yours.
http://www.shadetreekeys.com/2011/12/04/case-preparation-32766/

If you're going to build a new one, it looks like you should be able to take measurements from your old one. But if you're interested, I did a model of a cabinet like that in SketchUp. Each of the constituent parts can be pulled apart and dimensioned virtually.


For gouges in keytops, I use Rex-Lith Polyester Filler.

[PaulHelmuth]

...Here's a story about a particularly extensive repair on a cabinet of the same vintage as yours.
http://www.shadetreekeys.com/2011/12/04/case-preparation-32766/

If you're going to build a new one, it looks like you should be able to take measurements from your old one. But if you're interested, I did a model of a cabinet like that in SketchUp. Each of the constituent parts can be pulled apart and dimensioned virtually.



For gouges in keytops, I use Rex-Lith Polyester Filler.

Wow - David. Thank you so much!

I'm not familiar with SketchUp but I will look in to it - as it may be very helpful to use as a reference.

It might be possible to save some of the existing cabinetry, but I feel it will be easier for me to build all new. I also think that the result will be more sound.

Also - thanks for the tip on the polyester fill for the key cap. That sounds like something I should be able to use.

-P.

[David Aubke]

I'm not familiar with SketchUp but I will look in to it - as it may be very helpful to use as a reference.

SketchUp is free and pretty easy to use.

Also - thanks for the tip on the polyester fill for the key cap. That sounds like something I should be able to use.

Only problem with that filler is its price and limited availability.

[PaulHelmuth]

David - regarding the filler.

Is the white a good match - or do you use transparent?

-P.

[David Aubke]

I got the transparent so I could color it with my own pigments.

Disclosure: link is to my day job.

[PaulHelmuth]

...Only thing I notice is that the left harp support block (that the harp sits on) has a number of black shims on it.  Usually in that vintage, there may be one (like on the right block), or none at all.  When you put the piano back together, you'll definitely want to measure the escapement in the bass register.  My initial thought is you won't be able to play soft notes down there, and the action may be heavy.

Ben, you were right on. The escapement was way out on the bass end - and pretty far out on the treble side.

With all shims removed, the bass end is in spec.

I had to take about 3mm of the treble end support in addition to the shim that was on it.

I don't understand why someone would have added that much shim to something that didn't need any?

-Paul

[David Aubke]

I had to take about 3mm of the treble end support in addition to the shim that was on it.

I cut down one of my harp supports once as well.
http://ep-forum.com/smf/index.php?topic=7352.msg37524#msg37524

Sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

[PaulHelmuth]

...Sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

So True.

-Paul

[Ben Bove]

Ben, you were right on. The escapement was way out on the bass end - and pretty far out on the treble side.
[...]
I don't understand why someone would have added that much shim to something that didn't need any?

-Paul

Great to hear that's a solved issue.  Most of the time, it's a lack of knowledge about what someone is doing.  It's hard to say why, but I've seen where people slap a whole bunch of shims on there because adding them makes the piano  "sound better."  What's really going on is that the strikeline changed with the harp going up.  The hammers might end up hitting the tines in a better spot, but it's the wrong fix.

[Alan Lenhoff]

Great to hear that's a solved issue.  Most of the time, it's a lack of knowledge about what someone is doing.  It's hard to say why, but I've seen where people slap a whole bunch of shims on there because adding them makes the piano  "sound better."  What's really going on is that the strikeline changed with the harp going up.  The hammers might end up hitting the tines in a better spot, but it's the wrong fix.

Ben:

Just wondering, since you see a lot more of these than I do: 

In recent years, I've owned two Rhodes pianos from the '73-'74 era.  Both had 3 or so shims on the bass side, and needed to lose most/all  of them to play well. I guess I assumed they came that way from the factory, even though that era is reputed to have had pretty good factory setups. 

Do you think Rhodes was shipping them like this?  Or is this more likely something that players/techs did?

Alan

[PaulHelmuth]

In recent years, I've owned two Rhodes pianos from the '73-'74 era.  Both had 3 or so shims on the bass side, and needed to lose most/all  of them to play well. I guess I assumed they came that way from the factory, even though that era is reputed to have had pretty good factory setups. 

Do you think Rhodes was shipping them like this?  Or is this more likely something that players/techs did?

Alan

Alan,

This is the only one that I have had or seen - but it had 3 black wood shims on the bass side and one on the treble side.

So, it sounds to me like a factory thing - or something that came to be very common practice. Either way - seems odd to me, because there is no reasonable way to have these in good adjustment (anywhere in spec) with the shims in place. At least not on my 1973-73.

Of course - everyone else on this forum is more qualified to comment. - Let's see what they say...

-Paul
-Paul

[Ben Bove]

I have seen this too, specifically where they're glued together... and it's a hard call.  If they're using identical black shims to the factory ones, I would assume that it was done at the factory or by a tech that bought Rhodes parts.  Back then, I mean there was little to no knowledge outside of techs.  It probably was factory. 

The only thing that comes to mind, is maybe there's some sort of settling with the way they shimmed the action rail manually in that era.  If the hammer rail drops down somehow, that would put the escapement off.  I just don't know if it would be 2 shims-worth of settling though.  I would say that maybe you could pass a piano through Fender's Quality Assurance with a higher escapement, and it wouldn't double-strike or perhaps other issues that come with having tighter tolerances... but I don't think that would be the case.

[Alan Lenhoff]

Both of mine had factory-style black shims.  Ben, you may be on to something when you mention the possibility that they may have wanted to avoid issues that come with tighter tolerances. And it's time-consuming (read: "expensive") to do a lot of adjustments on the assembly line to optimize the "playability."

Alan

[PaulHelmuth]

Both of mine had factory-style black shims.  Ben, you may be on to something when you mention the possibility that they may have wanted to avoid issues that come with tighter tolerances. And it's time-consuming (read: "expensive") to do a lot of adjustments on the assembly line to optimize the "playability."

Alan

Alan - I agree. I think Ben is on to something.

Surprising though. With my escapement set as high as it was. You could play it. But you certainly could not play it softly.

With my escapement corrected, it feels and sounds right to me. Of course, the "miracle mod" makes a huge difference in feel - but in a mostly unrelated way.

I guess the good folks at CBS were willing to sacrifice a lot in order to minimize setup time. On second thought, maybe that shouldn't be such a surprise.

-Paul