Author Topic: Tines...  (Read 641 times)

Offline e-soul91

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Tines...
« on: February 26, 2017, 12:07:08 PM »
Yesterday, I have replaced my broken A3 tine with a brand new tine...

As much as I was happy that all 73 keys of my beauty are working, I was equally sad. The A3 now sounded much better than all other notes. I suspected why straight away. A new tine is a new tine. It is ringing longer than other tines of same octave, it has softer sound...it is beautiful. I think the old tines in my piano haven't been much changed since it was brand new. I believe they have became fatigued over time, which is 40 years. That's a lot of time. Sound difference isn't that much obvious. But it is enough for me to make me jealous...

I would like to replace all my tines with new tines. I want that heavenly sound on every key I press, I want every chord to sound like a beautiful fairy tale. But since one new tine is around 20 dollars, that would mean I have to spend around 1400 dollars to re-equip my entire piano with new tines. :( That is too much for me right now. Why tines have to be so expensive? Isn't there any way to make a deal with someone? To sell for reasonably less?

Have to try and see to get all 73 new tines. Sooner or later...
'77 Mark I Stage 73

"If butter had a sound, it would sound like Rhodes piano" -someone from the internet.

Offline pianotuner steveo

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Re: Tines...
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2017, 03:36:02 PM »
Are you 100% sure that the actual tine made the difference? It could be that you changed the timbre because the voicing changed when you replaced it. Other than when they are severely rusted, I've never seen a tines tone change so much just because it is old. It could be a different type than what your originals are, or like I said, you could have changed the voicing. I would play with voicing the others first. New grommets would likely change the sound more than just swapping a tine and would be much cheaper.

I think back in the day, rhodes tines were around $5. I remember paying $3-$5 for Wurlitzer reeds!

I suspect the price is much higher due to lack of demand and inflation. Not every keyboard player owns a Rhodes anymore.

I used to have regular Rhodes clients back in the '80's. Now they are very rare where I live.

1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
1968 Gibson G101 Combo organ
1975 Rhodes Piano Bass
1979 Wurlitzer 206A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 200A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 270 Butterfly Grand
2000 Yamaha acoustic piano
2004 Hammond XK3
2009 73A Rhodes Mark 7
2009 Korg SV-1 73
....and a few guitars...

Offline David Aubke

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Re: Tines...
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2017, 07:52:46 AM »
I agree with pianotuner steveo. I'm doubtful a new tine would sound very different from an old one in good condition.

But if you're determined, you might try contacting Vintage Vibe (is anyone else manufacturing new tines?) to see if they would be willing to cut a deal on an entire set. It will probably still be more expensive than buying an old piano and harvesting its tines but they'd all be brand new.
Dave Aubke
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Offline e-soul91

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Re: Tines...
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2017, 01:56:30 PM »
I have tried to re adjust voicing, and it seems it doesn't help. The difference is in essential sound, the length of sustain and ringing the most, and that hardly has to do anything with voicing...

I shall record the A3 which is new, and neighboring A3# or B3. Maybe then you will know what I am talking about.

Or even better, I have old G2, which is healthy, but i will replace it because I have spare G2. Then I will do sound recording of old and new tine, side by side...
'77 Mark I Stage 73

"If butter had a sound, it would sound like Rhodes piano" -someone from the internet.

Offline pianotuner steveo

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Re: Tines...
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2017, 08:02:07 PM »
It could be from breaking the connection with the tone bar and reinstalling. As an experiment ( it won't cost anything to try) pick a note near that new one that you are not happy with. Remove the tine from its tone bar, clean the areas around where it attaches, then reattach. See if that makes a difference. I seriously doubt that a new tine could sound that different unless the old was rusty, or there was some other defect, like bad grommets. Did you replace the grommets (which would help a lot) with the tine? I doubt it, but just asking to see what is different...
« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 07:40:52 AM by pianotuner steveo »
1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
1968 Gibson G101 Combo organ
1975 Rhodes Piano Bass
1979 Wurlitzer 206A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 200A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 270 Butterfly Grand
2000 Yamaha acoustic piano
2004 Hammond XK3
2009 73A Rhodes Mark 7
2009 Korg SV-1 73
....and a few guitars...

Offline e-soul91

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Re: Tines...
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2017, 07:29:00 AM »
It could be from breaking the connection with the tone bar and reinstalling. As an experiment ( it won't cost anything to try) pick a note near that new one that you are not happy with. Remove the tine from its tone bar, clean the areas around where it attaches, then reattach. See if that makes a difference. I seriously doubt that a new tine could sound that different unless the old was rusty, or there was some other defect, like bad grommets. Did you replace the grommets with the tine? I doubt it, but just asking to see what is different...

Gonna try that too, thank you, mate.
'77 Mark I Stage 73

"If butter had a sound, it would sound like Rhodes piano" -someone from the internet.

Offline Ben Bove

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Re: Tines...
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2017, 02:22:23 PM »
I have to concur with everyone else here as well - in most cases, it won't only be the tine that is the solution.  You may have lucked out here and replaced a bad tine, which there are bad tines in every piano, but in most cases your original tines will be good on the majority.  Have you done a full rubber grommet replacement on all the tonebars?  This would probably rectify most of any sustain issues you're hearing on notes.

What vintage is your piano?
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Offline Max Brink

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Re: Tines...
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2017, 12:10:00 AM »
In my shop I often pessimistically estimate that there are more dead tines than there actually are after a grommet replacement. I have first hand experience with every grommet supplier out there and I will say that the Retro Linear grommets are the best and definitely make a difference. Even in modern manufactured tine pianos they have proven to make a difference in my shop, especially in bass response and removing the somewhat nasal sound of other parts. Replace your grommets with RL parts before analyzing the tines because the suspension grommets are in many ways the lifeblood of the instrument.

Does anyone know who Avion studios is? Because those generic grommets are definitely not worthy of putting into a piano. There is a sweet spot in the density and sizing for the grommet and in my personal opinion Retro Linear easily comes out on top as producing the best -- I've heard them all first person and I promise you won't be disappointed!

« Last Edit: April 13, 2017, 08:07:23 AM by Max Brink »
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Offline rhodesjuzz

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Re: Tines...
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2017, 02:39:44 AM »
I'm sorry to say Max, but my experiences are quite different. I have had the RL grommets (and screws) shipped to the Netherlands. No matter what I did, I just couldn't make the mid section bark again. I bought the VV parts at a local ep shop (ep-service) and everything worked out great.....

--Roy
1976 Rhodes Suitcase 73 <effects loop || EHX Holy Grail Nano>
Line 6 midi keys
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Offline Max Brink

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Re: Tines...
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2017, 08:05:16 AM »
I'm surprised to hear that. Did you use their screws as well? There's definitely a difference in the density and the fit is the best I've dealt with hands-down. Did you adjust your strike line as well?
« Last Edit: April 13, 2017, 08:08:00 AM by Max Brink »
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Offline rhodesjuzz

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Re: Tines...
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2017, 10:35:36 AM »
Yes I installed new grommets, washers and screws from RL. I have to admit the installation was a breeze, the quality great and the fit perfect. I also adjusted strike line but that made things worse on most places. VV grommets are a bit softer and their screws a bit thicker. I know Rhodes used several screws (thickness, thread all the way up or not etc.) through the years. Maybe the RL set just don't match with the vintage of my piano, but I am not a Rhodes tech and my knowledge and experience is limited. I am sure you could make that stuff work great on my piano, but your shop is just a little bit too far :)

VV washers and grommets are not always very consistent but in my case they sound good. And they look better because of the nickel plating ;)
« Last Edit: April 13, 2017, 10:54:27 AM by rhodesjuzz »
1976 Rhodes Suitcase 73 <effects loop || EHX Holy Grail Nano>
Line 6 midi keys
Scarbee Mark I, A-200 and Classic EP-88S

Offline pnoboy

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Re: Tines...
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2017, 11:33:33 AM »
RL has had some problems with screws that aren't straight.

Offline rhodesjuzz

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Re: Tines...
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2017, 02:07:18 PM »
That's right. 20 of the 30 screws I tested were slightly bent. To be honoust some of the VV screws had the same issue but only 1 out of 10 and not as obvious as the RL ones
1976 Rhodes Suitcase 73 <effects loop || EHX Holy Grail Nano>
Line 6 midi keys
Scarbee Mark I, A-200 and Classic EP-88S

Offline Max Brink

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Re: Tines...
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2017, 09:07:26 PM »
Strange with the bent screws... I think I've only come across a small number in the thousands and thousands that I've ordered. I have so far fewer oscillating tines, especially in the bass, than any other grommet I've ever tried.
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Offline Chris Carroll

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Re: Tines...
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2017, 01:36:02 PM »
Regarding discussion about Vintage Vibe grommets and screws; we have spent countless hours of research and development on both screws and grommets to ensure perfect pairing and performance.

We were the first company to offer screws and grommets jointly as a set because we were the first to appreciate how critical that pairing is. We felt strongly enough about this to make a video showing the results of mismatching grommets and screws. Since that time, it seems that the community as a whole has come to agree that one size grommet does not fit all. 

We have designed our grommets so that the outer diameter is a precise fit to the tone bar and, in kind, our screws are held to an extremely tight tolerance to mate with the grommet’s inner diameter. We tested our grommet in a variety of different durometers and settled on producing two that performed best for their intended application. The first being the standard grommet that is used throughout the entire instrument to isolate the tone bar from the harp while providing stability and freedom for vibration. The second is our hard grommet. These are used in conjunction with a custom heavy spring to provide additional stabilization in the instance that a tine is showing excessive sway or oscillation. We call this our “Tine Stabilizer”.

Our screws are produced to specifications utilizing Swiss screw machining and finished in a bright nickel plating just like the originals. In addition to proper mating with grommets, another reason for replacing screws is deformation, bending, etc. To date, with over a million screws produced, we have not found any issues with bent or deformed screws. It is of course possible when producing such large quantities that some defect can occur. If you are a customer of ours who has received screws that show such a defect, we would like to know so that we can address it and replace any defects.

Our grommets, screws and washers are installed into every single Vintage Vibe Piano as well as our many restoration and repair projects; the results of which have always been excellent and continue to please customers all around the world. We make what we believe to be the finest electric piano in the world and strive to only make and utilize the best parts. Vintage Vibe grommets and screws have met our highest standards 100%. We back our product completely and without question.

2012 Tone Bar Screw & Grommet Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUQMFdd69uQ

2016 Tone Bar Screw Comparison Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRabYzSZ4cc
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Offline David Aubke

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Re: Tines...
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2017, 02:43:59 PM »
Since that time, it seems that the community as a whole has come to agree that one size grommet does not fit all.

Is there an online Rhodes community I'm unaware of? I frequent this one and a couple of Facebook groups.
I don't recall anyone ever claiming one size grommet fits all but this is clearly an issue you feel strongly about.
Dave Aubke
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Offline Ben Bove

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Re: Tines...
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2017, 04:17:43 PM »

2016 Tone Bar Screw Comparison Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRabYzSZ4cc
This is the most comprehensive video out there about tonebar grommets and screws.  You can only create a great product having and sharing knowledge like that, and I've had great experiences myself with Vintage Vibe grommets.  Also, those tine stabilizers Vintage Vibe offers work well.  I'll come across a badly oscillating tine, one that Fender tried to mash a couple of springs together and send it down the line... the stabilizer spring and grommet work great and saved having to replace a long tine.
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Offline rhodesjuzz

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Re: Tines...
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2017, 09:42:01 AM »
Actually this video made me buy the VV grommets and screws. Maybe 1 out of 10 was a bit exaggerated but there were a few screws that had this issue very slightly. So far other VV parts like the graduated hammer tips work great on my Rhodes as well.

The lowest F and A may need the tine stabilizer Ben mentioned. They oscillate quite a lot (from left to right as well) and take about 1 or 2 seconds to get to the right pitch.
1976 Rhodes Suitcase 73 <effects loop || EHX Holy Grail Nano>
Line 6 midi keys
Scarbee Mark I, A-200 and Classic EP-88S

Offline pnoboy

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Re: Tines...
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2017, 07:13:25 AM »
I think it's fair to say that RL produces tight grommets whereas VV produces loose grommets.  That is to say, the VV grommets slide easily over the screws, but the RL grommets are too tight to slide easily.  I don't know if this difference is significant, or if it has significance to the sound and bark of a Rhodes.  Please, RL and VV, chime in if I am misrepresenting your product in any way.

Offline David Aubke

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Re: Tines...
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2017, 08:05:53 AM »
I think it's fair to say that RL produces tight grommets whereas VV produces loose grommets.  That is to say, the VV grommets slide easily over the screws, but the RL grommets are too tight to slide easily.  I don't know if this difference is significant, or if it has significance to the sound and bark of a Rhodes.  Please, RL and VV, chime in if I am misrepresenting your product in any way.

I agree with this characterization and similarly withhold judgment about which is the superior or most appropriate fit.
Dave Aubke
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