News:

Follow us on Twitter for important announcements and outage notices.

Main Menu

Mark I hammer tip heights

Started by Alan Lenhoff, September 14, 2017, 10:49:38 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

Alan Lenhoff

I just noticed that on my 1974 Stage, the soft bass hammer tips on the first two octaves are noticeably shorter than the tips in the rest of the piano. The non-bass tips are all the same height. All the tips on the piano appear to be original square tips.   Out of curiosity, I checked some square tips I had removed from a 1973 student piano, and they were just like my '74 (short bass ones, and the rest are the same taller height).

Then I checked my '72 Piano Bass, and all the tips are the same height.

The conventional wisdom here seems to be that early Mark I's had non-graduated square tips, and later models went to tapered graduated ones.  But my '73 and '74 suggest there was some transition between those designs. The idea certainly makes sense, since the bass tines oscillate in a wider arc, giving the bass hammers a little more clearance from the tines to reduce the chance for doublestrikes. It works for me: Without a bump mod, I can play this piano soft or hard, with excellent dynamic range.

Any comments from those of you who see a lot more of these pianos than I do?  By the way, it looks like the replacement square tips that Retrolinear and Vintage Vibe sell are all of equal height across the keys.

Alan





Co-author, "Classic Keys: Keyboard Sounds That Launched Rock Music"

Learn about the book: http://www.classickeysbook.com/
Find it on Amazon.com: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1574417762/

1965 UK Vox Continental;1967 Gibson G101 organ; 1954 Hammond B2; Leslie 21H; Leslie 31H; 1974 Rhodes Mark I Stage 73; 1972 Rhodes Sparkletop Piano Bass; 1978 Hohner Clavinet D6; 1968 Hohner Pianet N II; 1966 Wurlitzer 140B; 1980 Moog Minimoog Model D; 1983 Roland JX-3P; 1977 Fender Twin Reverb; 1983 Roland JX-3P synth; Vox AC30CC2X amp.
(See the collection: https://vintagerockkeyboards.com/ )

Ben Bove

I feel like I've seen this as well, and you'd be right in the logic behind it if so.  Will check a 74 I have with original tips
Retro Rentals
Vintage Music Gear

http://www.retrorentals.net
(818) 806-9606
info@retrorentals.net

FB: https://www.facebook.com/retrorentals.net/
IG: @RetroRentalsNet

Bassics101

Well, I was about to post concerning this exact topic, and I did bring it another thread on escapement.  I'm rebuilding a '74, and all the tips are 7/16 except the bass which are 3/8.  As far as I can tell, this only happened with 74s. I bet you have three shims on both harp supports, and all middle tips are yellow (paint).

I'd appreciate any more info anyone has about this,

Bassics101

I should have added my theory.  Back in '73 a shipment of yellow hardness tips arrived cut too long so Fender just shimmed up the supports and put them all in the mid section knowing that tapered tips were about to go in the next years models.  ;)

Alan Lenhoff

>>As far as I can tell, this only happened with 74s. >>

As I mentioned, my '73 student KMC model had the shorter bass tips, too. 

>>I bet you have three shims on both harp supports, and all middle tips are yellow (paint). >>

I don't remember how it was set up when I bought it a couple years ago, but I did remove more than a few shims.  It's great now, with a single shim on the bass side and none on the treble side.  My yellow tips are the only ones that are color-coded. I think it was pretty common in that period for pianos to ship with too many shims for proper escapement. Maybe Ben can comment on that.

Alan
Co-author, "Classic Keys: Keyboard Sounds That Launched Rock Music"

Learn about the book: http://www.classickeysbook.com/
Find it on Amazon.com: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1574417762/

1965 UK Vox Continental;1967 Gibson G101 organ; 1954 Hammond B2; Leslie 21H; Leslie 31H; 1974 Rhodes Mark I Stage 73; 1972 Rhodes Sparkletop Piano Bass; 1978 Hohner Clavinet D6; 1968 Hohner Pianet N II; 1966 Wurlitzer 140B; 1980 Moog Minimoog Model D; 1983 Roland JX-3P; 1977 Fender Twin Reverb; 1983 Roland JX-3P synth; Vox AC30CC2X amp.
(See the collection: https://vintagerockkeyboards.com/ )

squarebubble

Just looked at the old original tips I saved from my '74 stage. The bass are 11/32 and the rest are 7/16 in height. Again the yellows are the only ones colour coded.

Bassics101

Quote from: squarebubble on September 15, 2017, 05:08:20 AM
Just looked at the old original tips I saved from my '74 stage. The bass are 11/32 and the rest are 7/16 in height. Again the yellows are the only ones colour coded.

Thanks squarebubble.  I'm curious, when you changed them, did you use available 3/8", and if so, did you have to change the escapement beyond using the tone bar screws.  Cutting the blocks or removing shims?

Ben Bove

#7
I have a very late 74, almost 75, and has the same shorter bass tips.
Retro Rentals
Vintage Music Gear

http://www.retrorentals.net
(818) 806-9606
info@retrorentals.net

FB: https://www.facebook.com/retrorentals.net/
IG: @RetroRentalsNet

squarebubble

To be honest Bassics101 my piano was a complete disaster when I acquired it. At the time VV only sold the graduated tips and as there were no shims to remove, there wasn't a problem installing them and setting a decent escapement with new screws and grommets.

Alan Lenhoff

Thanks to all for your responses. They certainly confirm my thought that my short bass tips were original. Rhodes was always tinkering with its design, so probably none of us ought to be surprised by finding all sorts of little variations that came and went.

It makes me wonder what I might do if I ever wanted to replace my bass hammer tips and not disturb the bass escapement.  (I love the feel of the piano now.) So far, I've avoided the need to replace any tips by rotating a few grooved ones by 180 degrees to present a flat surface to the tine. 

Alan
Co-author, "Classic Keys: Keyboard Sounds That Launched Rock Music"

Learn about the book: http://www.classickeysbook.com/
Find it on Amazon.com: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1574417762/

1965 UK Vox Continental;1967 Gibson G101 organ; 1954 Hammond B2; Leslie 21H; Leslie 31H; 1974 Rhodes Mark I Stage 73; 1972 Rhodes Sparkletop Piano Bass; 1978 Hohner Clavinet D6; 1968 Hohner Pianet N II; 1966 Wurlitzer 140B; 1980 Moog Minimoog Model D; 1983 Roland JX-3P; 1977 Fender Twin Reverb; 1983 Roland JX-3P synth; Vox AC30CC2X amp.
(See the collection: https://vintagerockkeyboards.com/ )

Bassics101

Quote from: alenhoff on September 16, 2017, 07:18:50 AM
It makes me wonder what I might do if I ever wanted to replace my bass hammer tips and not disturb the bass escapement.  (I love the feel of the piano now.) So far, I've avoided the need to replace any tips by rotating a few grooved ones by 180 degrees to present a flat surface to the tine. 

Alan
I think the problem would arise replacing the middle tips.  3/8 square bass tips are available form VV, but 7/16 middle range tips are not available anywhere that I can find.  I think VV also sells 7/16 wood-center tips, so the treble end would be fine.  One solution is to add a 1/16th inch shim and use 3/8 tips.  Another is to remove any sims present on e harp supports.  Finally, you can cut a bit off the bottom of the harp supports or make new ones if you want to keep the originals. 

I, like you, have rotated some tips, but I've had to replace a few, and since it was a few, I opted to add a the shim under the 3/8" replacement tips.  Works great.

Alan Lenhoff

Bassics101:

That's really helpful info, which I plan to file away in case I want to replace tips at some point.

A little more detail would be helpful:  What did you use for the shims?  And can you share your technique for trimming and applying the shim material?

Thanks.

Alan
Co-author, "Classic Keys: Keyboard Sounds That Launched Rock Music"

Learn about the book: http://www.classickeysbook.com/
Find it on Amazon.com: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1574417762/

1965 UK Vox Continental;1967 Gibson G101 organ; 1954 Hammond B2; Leslie 21H; Leslie 31H; 1974 Rhodes Mark I Stage 73; 1972 Rhodes Sparkletop Piano Bass; 1978 Hohner Clavinet D6; 1968 Hohner Pianet N II; 1966 Wurlitzer 140B; 1980 Moog Minimoog Model D; 1983 Roland JX-3P; 1977 Fender Twin Reverb; 1983 Roland JX-3P synth; Vox AC30CC2X amp.
(See the collection: https://vintagerockkeyboards.com/ )

Bassics101

Quote from: alenhoff on September 17, 2017, 08:37:33 AM
A little more detail would be helpful:  What did you use for the shims?  And can you share your technique for trimming and applying the shim material?

I got this idea from the repair manual, page 9-3 has a diagram, where they describe replacing felt teardrop hammers with hammers that have neoprene tips, except I used 1/16" material instead of 1/8".

I'm not sure where the material I used came from or what type of wood it was. It was just something I had in the shop. I did this initially as a test to see how it would work, and it has worked quite well. I only needed two or three replaced.  If you have access to a table saw, you could cut some thin strips off of any wood you choose, and I might do that with maple for additional repairs. You may also find something suitable at a hardware or woodworking shop, maybe even at hobby/craft stores. What I used was not quite 1/16" but close enough for my test. 

I rough cut the shim with a box cutter blade and attached it using a very small drop of super glue so that I could remove it easier if needed down the road. Being thin, there was no trouble trimming the shim to the size of the hammer head.   I then attached the tip to the shim but used a bit more glue.  In my case I had used tips, so I had to scrape the old glue off. 

This was simple and quick enough that I would have no reluctance to doing it on all the hammers if I wanted to replace all the 7/16" tips.  How it will age, only time will tell.  But it is working well for now.


Alan Lenhoff

Thank you!  Lots of good info that will be of use if I need to replace some tips.

Alan
Co-author, "Classic Keys: Keyboard Sounds That Launched Rock Music"

Learn about the book: http://www.classickeysbook.com/
Find it on Amazon.com: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1574417762/

1965 UK Vox Continental;1967 Gibson G101 organ; 1954 Hammond B2; Leslie 21H; Leslie 31H; 1974 Rhodes Mark I Stage 73; 1972 Rhodes Sparkletop Piano Bass; 1978 Hohner Clavinet D6; 1968 Hohner Pianet N II; 1966 Wurlitzer 140B; 1980 Moog Minimoog Model D; 1983 Roland JX-3P; 1977 Fender Twin Reverb; 1983 Roland JX-3P synth; Vox AC30CC2X amp.
(See the collection: https://vintagerockkeyboards.com/ )