Tine Question

[Oliver Sheen]

Some of my tines are almost impossible to tune. Even though they maybe the same length as others they are quite a bit higher in pitch. I can't move the spring far enough down towards the end to get the note low enough. Is this a sign that the tine is dead or corroded in some way?

Also what it the optimum length of the tine/position of the tuning spring? I notice you can buy tines cut to length but is this strictly necessary when it will be tuned with the spring?

Cheers!

[pianotuner steveo]

Tines should be cut pretty close to the length shown on the chart. If they are cut too short, that is one possible cause of not being able to tune low enough. In most cases, if you add a second tuning spring to the tines that are too sharp, that should do the trick.
I am guessing the tines that you are having trouble with are in the bass. The bass tines use a larger,heavier spring, so you could possibly have the wrong size spring on those tines.

Adding another tuning spring will likely be the first easiest solution. The position of the spring(s) will vary from note to note, but you don't want the springs at the strike point of the hammer.

Your issue has nothing to do with corrosion (unless they are severely rusted)

[sean]

Attached is the tine cutting chart that I use.

This is just a cleaned-up and corrected version of the tine cutting chart from the Cutting Instructions for Tone Generators that came with the kit of six tines.  Vintage Vibe has this posted as the very last page of their version of the Rhodes Service Manual (pdf).  (Scroll down to the 97th page.)

In the version attached below, I only show the new-style tine numbering, and I converted the fractional measurements to decimal inches and millimeters.  The fundamental frequencies copied copied from Michigan Tech.

If you want the original spreadsheet so you can format and play with it yourself, send me a PM.

oops:  I think you might not see the attachment unless you log in.  Hilariously, the first pdf that I attached was missing key 88.  It is fixed now.


Sean

[sean]

For a given note, the length of the tine affects the position of the tuning spring, the size of the tuning spring required, or the need for more than one tuning spring.  If the tine is cut too short, you will either need a large-diameter spring, a longer-length tuning spring, or two tuning springs.

I have the best luck with tone, tuning, and pitch stability when the tines are cut the correct length – so that  there is a single tuning spring located at a reasonable length from the end of the tine.  A "reasonable length" is not a well-defined thing.  For me, I think I want 3/8" to 3/4" in the bass, 1/8" to
3/16" in the middle, and 1/8" to nothing for the shortest tines.

There was a time that I thought I wanted to thoroughly test this experimentally, but I got tired of it after just three tines.  Here are three tines that I was fussing with months ago:




The take-away lesson is don't cut your tines too short.  Too long is easier to deal with than too short, and too long can be filed down gradually until perfect.

Sean

[Oliver Sheen]

Thanks for that in depth reply. It did seem weird that my piano would have tunes that had been cut too short and now I think about it I probably haven't put the correct tuning springs on. I think I may some more. Once again thanks for great advice

Oliver

[sean]

So you don't have to log in, here it is again...


Rhodes Tine Cutting Chart

Note   Tonebar    Tine Length  Tine Length   Fundamental
Name   Number     Inches       Millimeters   Frequency
         1-7      6.156 in     156.4 mm       
E         8       6.156 in     156.4 mm        41.20
F         9       6.000 in     152.4 mm        43.65
F#       10       5.844 in     148.4 mm        46.25
G        11       5.656 in     143.7 mm        49.00
G#       12       5.531 in     140.5 mm        51.91
A        13       5.344 in     135.7 mm        55.00
A#       14       5.172 in     131.4 mm        58.27
B        15       5.063 in     128.6 mm        61.74
C        16       4.953 in     125.8 mm        65.41
C#       17       4.781 in     121.4 mm        69.30
D        18       4.641 in     117.9 mm        73.42
D#       19       4.453 in     113.1 mm        77.78
E        20       4.359 in     110.7 mm        82.41
F        21       4.266 in     108.4 mm        87.31
F#       22       4.141 in     105.2 mm        92.50
G        23       4.063 in     103.2 mm        98.00
G#       24       3.969 in     100.8 mm       103.83
A        25       3.875 in      98.4 mm       110.00
A#       26       3.750 in      95.3 mm       116.54
B        27       3.656 in      92.9 mm       123.47
C        28       3.531 in      89.7 mm       130.81
C#       29       3.438 in      87.3 mm       138.59
D        30       3.344 in      84.9 mm       146.83
D#       31       3.219 in      81.8 mm       155.56
E        32       3.141 in      79.8 mm       164.81
F        33       3.063 in      77.8 mm       174.61
F#       34       3.000 in      76.2 mm       185.00
G        35       2.938 in      74.6 mm       196.00
G#       36       2.813 in      71.5 mm       207.65
A        37       2.766 in      70.3 mm       220.00
A#       38       2.672 in      67.9 mm       233.08
B        39       2.609 in      66.3 mm       246.94
C        40       2.547 in      64.7 mm       261.63
C#       41       2.500 in      63.5 mm       277.18
D        42       2.438 in      61.9 mm       293.66
D#       43       2.359 in      59.9 mm       311.13
E        44       2.281 in      57.9 mm       329.63
F        45       2.219 in      56.4 mm       349.23
F#       46       2.125 in      54.0 mm       369.99
G        47       2.094 in      53.2 mm       392.00
G#       48       2.031 in      51.6 mm       415.30
A        49       2.000 in      50.8 mm       440.00
A#       50       1.969 in      50.0 mm       466.16
B        51       1.906 in      48.4 mm       493.88
C        52       1.828 in      46.4 mm       523.25
C#       53       1.781 in      45.2 mm       554.37
D        54       1.734 in      44.0 mm       587.33
D#       55       1.688 in      42.9 mm       622.25
E        56       1.641 in      41.7 mm       659.25
F        57       1.594 in      40.5 mm       698.46
F#       58       1.563 in      39.7 mm       739.99
G        59       1.500 in      38.1 mm       783.99
G#       60       1.469 in      37.3 mm       830.61
A        61       1.422 in      36.1 mm       880.00
A#       62       1.375 in      34.9 mm       932.33
B        63       1.344 in      34.1 mm       987.77
C        64       1.320 in      33.5 mm      1046.50
C#       65       1.297 in      32.9 mm      1108.73
D        66       1.266 in      32.2 mm      1174.66
D#       67       1.219 in      31.0 mm      1244.51
E        68       1.172 in      29.8 mm      1318.51
F        69       1.156 in      29.4 mm      1396.91
F#       70       1.125 in      28.6 mm      1479.98
G        71       1.094 in      27.8 mm      1567.98
G#       72       1.063 in      27.0 mm      1661.22
A        73       1.031 in      26.2 mm      1760.00
A#       74       1.016 in      25.8 mm      1864.66
B        75       0.984 in      25.0 mm      1975.53
C        76       0.969 in      24.6 mm      2093.00
C#       77       0.953 in      24.2 mm      2217.46
D        78       0.938 in      23.8 mm      2349.32
D#       79       0.906 in      23.0 mm      2489.02
E        80       0.890 in      22.6 mm      2637.02
F        81                       .          2793.83
F#       82                       .          2959.96
G        83                       .          3135.96
G#       84                       .          3322.44
A        85                       .          3520.00
A#       86                       .          3729.31
B        87                       .          3951.07
C        88                       .          4186.01