Wulri jack springs

[Legato72]

Hello everyone. I recently purchased the whip assembly rebuild kit from vintage vibe. http://www.vintagevibe.com/p-716-wurlitzer-electric-piano-whip-assembly-rebuild-kit.aspx
So, now that I have the action out of the piano and I'm able to pull out the whips one by one, I want to put the new springs in. My old springs aren't bad, but I figure hell if I spent 15 bucks on new ones might as well throw them in.

Anyways, it seems pretty tricky as the old springs are glued in on one side. Unfortunately vintage vibe doesn't have a video that details spring replacement. I was wondering if any of you have experience with smoothly swapping them out. What is a good method for it? Glue solvent? but then I need to clean it out for new glue and I don't know it just seems like a mess. Its a pain enough just scraping those old felts off, jeez!

please make some suggestions even if you haven't done it yourself, because I don't now how to attack this

[rweav]

I bought the rebuild video from vintage vibe for the 140B and it has very detailed video on replacing the springs. They use acetone (it takes more than one application) to loosen up the old glue and an awl to clean out the hole before replacing the spring. The 140B and 200 series whip assemblies are the same.

[Legato72]

Thanks for the reply. acetone. I hear about it a lot, but have never used it. Can I pick that up at the local hardware store? also, what kind of glue did they use to set the new spring?

[Rob A]

Yes pure acetone should be available at hardware stores. Due to unfortunate uses of the stuff in manufacturing intoxicants, and certain areas laws on volatile organic compounds, you may have a hard time obtaining some depending on your locality. Luckily you shouldn't need much.

Use it in a well ventilated area.

[Legato72]

Ok, thanks. I'm going to go grab some. Also, what kind of glue should get to set the new spring?

[pianotuner steveo]

BeSURE to remove your keys and put them far away from the acetone first. Acetone EATS most plastics. It completely dissolves it like acid. So BE CAREFUL.

I do not understand why you want to put yourself through all that work if it isnt needed. Replacing jack springs is only necessary if they are broken or extremely weak.
If it aint broke, dont fix it.

[pianotuner steveo]

Oh, I use wood glue like titebond to glue them in.....you can use a toothpick to apply it to the wood, or swirl the end of the spring in glue if you can fit it in without dripping the glue.

Do a couple at a time. Don't rip them all out at once or you may regret it!

[Legato72]

hmm, you have a point about the whole if it aint broke dont fix it thing. I'll probably just skip it then. but this is good information to have out there. thanks guys.

[SlowMonroe]

Replacing springs is very hard to mess up. I you have the action out to replace jack felts, you might as well put in new springs. It is just insuring that part of the piano will be ready for another 40 years of playing. There are so many things that can go wrong with a wurli, but if you have the ability to take the action out & put it back together correctly, I would recommend replacing all the jack springs.
Eli

[pianotuner steveo]

Once again, THERE IS NO REASON to replace them unless they are broken,weak or missing. It is a complete waste of time otherwise. It usually takes 80 years or more before they start falling apart.
It isn't difficult to do, but in most cases it is POINTLESS.

I have been servicing pianos ( and eps, but mostly acoustic) for a living for more than 30 years and I have only seen ONE acoustic piano in all that time that needed a complete set of jack springs replaced.

[SlowMonroe]

@ Steveo: Of course there is no reason for him to replace the springs right now, unless they are broken or weak. But, especially since he  already bought the springs, and if he is taking whip assemblies out to replace the felts, its not that much more time.
I would only replace the springs when completely rebuilding a Wurli, when you're making everything new and shiny, and making it sturdier for decades to come. I will make a video if anyone wants the next time I do it (which is not often).

[pianotuner steveo]

Eli,
Yes,I see your point but I personally would just save the new springs in case there is a problem later. You have to remember that even though this is not a hugely difficult job, you and I do it more often than most people. Getting the old springs out can be more trouble than it is worth,especially for someone who has never done it before.

And yes, I agree that while the action is out it is a far easier job.

Remember everyone, the acetone removal method is fine, but acetone eats keytops and other plastics, so be careful of that and the fumes. One little drop can ruin a keytop.

[GetWithTheTines]

As long as we're on the subject, what would replacing the jack springs accomplish? Would it make the action a little heavier? Return the key a little more quickly? How do you know when you need to replace them?

[pianotuner steveo]

It will do nothing for your action unless you have broken or missing or extremely weak springs.
If you have any jacks that are having trouble returning to their rest position, you can check to see if the spring is the cause, but not having enough lost motion at the top of the jack can cause this problem too, also tight center pins in the jack can cause this.(lube to correct) excessive humidity is usually the culprit.

The springs do not make the action heavier.

The only purpose of the jack spring is to return the jack to the at rest position.

I do not replace them unless they are broken or missing which is rare in a wurli.

[GetWithTheTines]

Thanks, again, Steveo. I pulled out some of the whip assemblies and when I pull it back and release it, it bounces a little off of the other side, indicating that the spring has lost some of its strength - slightly more than shown at the beginning of this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwwPXFcMe6I&feature=related

Is that a sign that I need to replace them? The guys at VV recommend replacing them if you have your piano apart, but I don't know how common it is for people to actually undertake such a task. From Steveo's experience, it seems very rare. I wonder how often the guys at VV do it.

Also, I have the new jack felts, but am not sure if I should go ahead and replace those as well. They seem to be in pretty good condition, but I'm sure they have never been replaced. Is this a task that should be done as long as you have the piano apart? Seems like it wouldn't be as bad as replacing the jack springs, but maybe it's not worth it.

[pianotuner steveo]

 Again, that would be an as needed type of repair, if the felt is torn, worn, moth eaten, etc. If it aint broke, dont fix it.

Are you talking about the felts that are glued directly onto the jacks? Those are simple to replace, yes, but the felt inside the whip itself is quite difficult to replace.


Im not sure what you mean by it bounces off the other side. If a spring is weak, you will know it. the jack will hardly move at all when moved like in that video. Have you tried lubing the jack's center pin to see if that helps your situation?

[Chris Carroll]

In regards to replacing jack springs in a Wurlitzer-  If you have your action apart, it's apart for a reason, such as worn felts, sluggish action, broken whip etc.

1. Replacing jack Springs is a pretty easy thing to do and in my opinion a great thing for your pianos snap action, along with shrinking your action and tightening all action parts and replacing any worn felts.
I respectfully disagree with what SteveO is saying, seems like a stance you should not be so adament about, I respect your opinion Steve and your time served on your acoustic pianos but the fact remains, I have seen dozens upon dozens of Wurlitzers with weak springs and have rectified many issues with new springs. In light of this, it is reccomended to change out your springs along with shrinking your action and any other options you have to make improvements  for a new snappy feel.  It does make a difference in your pianos action.
Another trick  of many to get more snap out of your action is to reverse bend your damper flange springs,  they get worn and weak leaving the action compromised. If you note on later 200A pianos the Damper flange spring is much stiffer thus causing a snappier action than say an early 200 or a 140 series piano. Vintage Vibe is in the midst of making new drop in Dampers for the 200 series that will bring back the life of any piano action. Rebuilding your piano action is highly reccomended and highly rewarding, I do not reccomend anything I do not use or stand by myself.

[pianotuner steveo]

Chris, I did say that if the springs ARE weak, (broken, or missing) replace them. I was also saying that it is redundant if they do not need replacing.

What I was basically getting at is that it is sometimes better for an inexperienced person to leave the parts alone rather than risk damaging them. This is why I say, if it aint broke, don't fix it.

You have to remember Chris, that you and I do these repairs every day. A lot of guys on this forum have never done these repairs before. I just don't want to see anyone mess up their actions, or accidentally spill acetone on their keytops, etc.

The wurli action parts are far more fragile than the Rhodes.

[GetWithTheTines]

Chris: Thanks for your input. Reverse bending the damper flange springs is a great tip.

Steveo: I appreciate what you are saying about not taking on some of the more complicated repairs if you are inexperienced, as I am.

I think I'll wait for now. I'd like to see what lubricating and shrinking the action with the fast action remedy solution and reverse bending the damper flange springs will do first. I'm also anxious to see what difference reconditioning the hammers and installing the reed bar shield has made. I feel confident enough to take it apart later, if necessary.

[DocWurly]

The only purpose of the jack spring is to return the jack to the at rest position.

This is inaccurate. At least in the 140 through 200A series, the jack springs are crucial in supporting the hammer such that it can strike the reed with adequate force. When the springs are truly failing, you can tell:  No amount of raising the upper capstan --of "letting off" the let-off setting-- will result in the hammer letting off at 1/8" inch from the reeds when a key is depressed very slowly. The whippen will slide forward of its own accord as the key is depressed, and the hammer will drop too early.

I'm not sure how well these springs were doing in 2011, when this post was made. In 2024, I find that many instruments manufactured through 1977 have failing jack springs. I'm not sure why I see this less often in later instruments.  Maybe they used better springs? Or maybe less time has passed and they are all time bombs?

Jack springs start failing before that obvious let-off symptom described above. There's a phenomenon as follows: The sustain pedal is depressed, and on repeated hits of a note, the reed and hammer momentum cancel out each other, and the reed stops ringing, abruptly. The hammer lacks the force to overcome the force of the reed traveling towards it. I'm pretty sure that's a sign of a weak spring.

[pianotuner steveo]

I'm not sure why you replied to a post from 13 years ago, but after saying it's inaccurate, you basically agreed with me.... if the springs are broken,weak, or missing, the Jack can't return to its original position, which is necessary to "support the hammer" as you said. I said nothing about adjusting the Letoff if the springs are not functioning properly.