To Backcheck, or not to Backcheck...?

[Student Rhodes]

My 74 Suitcase just seems to have a clangier action than any of my other pianos. It's also a little more prone to the weak second strike on the tine, after an initial keystrike.

I'm considering putting in a backcheck kit to cut down on some of the bounce, damper and play issues. I would appreciate any and all feedback, good or bad, on backcheck installation.  I know Vintage Vibe sells a kit, but have any of you experience with any other backcheck types?

I've just ordered some knobs and a faceplate from VV, and I'm considering piggybacking the order with a backcheck kit, and saving postage.

Pro or Con, any feedback as soon as possible would be appreciated.

Ray

[David Aubke]

I've installed a few VV backcheck kits.

I've opted to forgo them on the last two units. I'm not convinced they add enough value. Their kit, like many other solutions, is a compromise. They're much simpler than real piano backchecks. Real back checks aren't really an option on a Rhodes and the VV kit is a good solution but still a compromise.

There's very little room for error in getting them adjusted properly. Too close and they won't allow the hammer to fall back to the pedestal. Too far and they have no effect. After playing for a while, they'll need to be adjusted again. I'm not sure they won't need to be readjusted on a regular basis.

[edit](back from some quick research) Well, maybe they're not that different from standard piano back checks but I stand by my assertion that they're difficult to adjust and easily fall out of adjustment.

[Student Rhodes]

Thanks for the reply, Dave.
I get your point that the backchecks may need to be repeatedly adjusted in the future.

I'm wondering if, when you installed the backcheck kit, it was for a piano that had serious issues, or just a piano you were looking to get whatever additional performance enhancement you could achieve.

It would seem that if the piano were really clanky, and loose with bouncy hammers, it might still be worth installing backchecks, even if they require additional adjusting.

I'm still on the fence.  I'd still appreciate some input from the rest of you guys... and gals, if such a thing exists on this forum.

Ray

[David Aubke]

If you think the piano is 'clanky' and that its hammers are particularly loose and bouncy then I think you should go for it. They do have a real effect on bouncy hammers.

I installed them because I figured they were an improvement.. and they are, but it's not something I personally notice while actually playing. In a small way, my decision to skip the back checks is driven by my stated goal of restoring pianos to their factory condition. They weren't installed in the factory.

[Student Rhodes]

Yeah, I get what you're saying about keeping things in stock condition.  As a long time vintage guitar player, I'm in the same camp. 

However, my main Suitcase is already a 72/75 hybrid, with a sparkle top, and my Student models came to me custom painted -- a big improvement on the Avacado color, by the way.  So aside from garish preamp modifications on the name rail, as long as the mods are tasteful and/or improve function, changes from factory issue is not as much of a buggaboo for me.  (I've actually got plans to stick a stereo preamp into one of my Student models, to power a pair of matching sattelite speakers.)

I just think I'll enjoy the piano in question more if it didn't feel so loose and clacky under the fingers.  I'm also on occassion not getting a clean strike on consecutive notes, as well. 

That said, I'd only want to go through all this trouble installing backchecks which, as you've pointed out, forever change what was done at the factory, if I were assured to get definitive results on the classic hammer/damper/bounce issues.

It sounds like you're saying I'll see the kind of improvement that may make it worth my while.

Any one else have any experience with backchecks they'd like to share?

Ray

[David Aubke]

Let me be clear: I don't advocate for keeping your piano in original condition. I wouldn't give that a second thought if I was you.

It's just the goal I've set for units I work on under the Shadetree Keys name.. which are the only units I work on. In some respects it's as arbitrary as any other goal from restoring basic functionality up to installing MIDI circuitry and name rail lighting.

[The Real MC]

I think a better solution is shimming the harp assembly - at the ends between the harp and harp support.  This changes the strike point on the tines.  It worked on my sparkletop.

And agree that you shouldn't strive for authenticity.  Most of them sounded inferior leaving the factory!

[Max Brink]

I installed a handful of back checking systems before coming to the same conclusion as David. I'm not a fan.

From my experience, I have corrected bouncing hammers by rebuilding the key bed and raising the key height. The raised key height shifts the key's weight towards the back of the key and can reduce any bounce. This should be done before installing a pedestal bump modification as it might shift the placement of the bump so if you have already installed this bump on your Rhodes you might be getting more practice setting it up!

Another thing to consider would be the tension in the bridal strap. I've modified some key bed and action assemblies for shorter bridal straps in order to make sure that there is a bit of tension that will help keep everything right where it should be.


On a side note: Are the VV back check kits technically considered a back-check at all? I've only seen back-checking in reference to catching the hammer arm between the strike  before it returns to a rest position so isn't the pedestal in the upright position actually doing the back-checking?

[AFeastOfFriends]

I have been experiencing the same questions with my Piano Bass. The hammer bounce on it is horrible, you can hear them bouncing loud and clear and it makes multiple strikes a nightmare.

There are some very interesting points here that they are a compromise. I think they might be worth it in my case, since the problem is so severe, but if there's a more permanent fix, I'd like to consider that.

Also, one of my favorite things about keyboards is that function is valued more than factory originality, like with guitars. I love how a highly functional, well-working Rhodes is worth more than one that works okay but is fully original.

[David Aubke]

By compromise, I really only meant they were a simple, affordable and easily installable but maybe less precise version of (what I thought to be) the more engineered back checks found on acoustic pianos. I don't have first-hand knowledge of what I was comparing them to though.

[Max Brink]

For the Piano Bass, you might find it beneficial to add them. The bass notes are going to be where the bounce is most noticable on the muting of the tine. Also, with the piano bass the updated adjustments that David mentioned will only be performed on 32 notes instead of 73/88 so it will be a bit less of a headache.

I also have used some alternative piano felt that is more padded that I use on the bass notes that does a better job of absorbing the landing on the tine which minimizes the bounce.


...And going back on my note about whether or not it is truly considered a Back Check, wouldn't the pedestal bump (or miracle mod) be the part that is performing the function of a true back check?

Also, one of my favorite things about keyboards is that function is valued more than factory originality, like with guitars. I love how a highly functional, well-working Rhodes is worth more than one that works okay but is fully original.

--When it comes to vintage instruments, guitars or keyboards, there are parts that are valued when they are truly original and there are parts that are intended to be updated with time as they age. For instance, the pedestal bump modification and adding the VV back-check kit, updating tines, hammer tips and other parts that wear down are just part of the setup of the instrument and would be analogous to re-stringing, re-fretting, or making truss rod adjustments to use your analogy. These are all of the things that maintain the instrument's health and voice over time so they add to (or at least maintain) the value of the instrument--when done properly. Other adjustments, like custom cosmetic finishes or changing out any parts that are not true to original specs of the specific era, can have negative affects on the value. When these modifications are performed it is best to keep in mind that the modification is done for the sake of the current owner and may limit the future owners that are interested in the instrument (decreasing the value or making it hard to re-coup any value that was added in the eyes of the owner).

[David Aubke]

According to Wikipedia, the back check is there to remove energy from the hammer after the key has been returned to the at-rest position.

In the upright position, Rhodes key pedestals create a "stop lock" relationship with the hammers but I haven't heard of this being referred to as a "back check" mechanism.

[David Aubke]

OK, I really need to stop commenting on subjects I don't know about...

Max, you may be right.

From the same Wikipedia article:
"The purpose of the back check is to check the hammer by coming in contact with the "back catch" (the backward projection of the butt), at a short distance from the string in its return, and prevent the hammer from falling entirely back to its rest position, thereby preventing quick repetition."

[Student Rhodes]

Max and/or David,

I can see the diminished value being of some concern to the resale of the instrument.  But even a minty condition Suitcase Model is realistically gonna fetch somewhere between $2500 - $5000 in this market.  There are so many parts pianos out there, almost any mod to a piano can be undone cheaply.   So I don't have any issue personalizing a piano.   I think custom colors -- short of purple snakeskin etc. -- look great. 

I'm thinking of redoing one of my pianos in white of light beige.  Yes, it could make it harder to find the right buyer, but it's not like because of nice new white tolex on a dimed out piano is gonna fetch anything less than three grand.

Ray

[David Aubke]

even a minty condition Suitcase Model is realistically gonna fetch somewhere between $2500 - $5000 in this market.

Good lord, what market are you in?

[Student Rhodes]

I see a lot pianos that have higher asking prices on craigslist and ebay, and they sit for months.
Dead mint? Perhaps not.  But a lot of pianos in fine cosmetic condition seem to fall in that range.

Maybe Alicia Keyes or Michael McDonald is paying more for a Rhodes, but the average buyer isn't throwing down that much money.

What market are you in?  What would a very fine to minty condition Rhodes cost?

[David Aubke]

I think the most expensive Rhodes I've ever seen was somewhere in the $4,000 USD range. This was from a professional shop.

I don't spend much time looking at the sold-for prices on ebay but to me, $2,500 is astronomical, even for a unit in top condition.

[AFeastOfFriends]

My experience on prices is limited to Missouri, where pretty much everything is cheaper, but highest I've ever seen a Rhodes go for was around $1100 or so, and that was a really nice '74-'75 stage with a pair of similar condition Super Satellites. Never, ever seen a Rhodes, even fully restored, go for really anything above that. Maybe a sparkletop will hit up there past $1500, but those are also a bit of a niche deal too, with their upkeep being so much more difficult than MkI's and later. I think that's what they average on eBay too, only really ever topping in the low $1000s.

Also, I agree that huge cosmetic changes will lower value no matter what it is, but I just meant more of a new top and new tolex (given they're original colors) and some upgraded speakers or the like will boost the value as opposed to refinishing a vintage guitar, even if in the original style, will diminish it for sure. Making it look and work like new only ever boosts keyboard values, as far as I can tell.

That might just be a bit of confirmation bias on my part though. I've messed with a lot more keyboard sales than guitar sales.

[Student Rhodes]

I think the most expensive Rhodes I've ever seen was somewhere in the $4,000 USD range.

Which is within the spread I've cited.  I was trying to give a range that covers the apocryphal 5K piano Superstar ABC bought from Rhodes guru XYZ.

When you asked what market I was in, I thought it was because you were used to seeing Rhodes go for potentially much more.

My greater point was that even if you modify a Rhodes, you're only tampering with something that could possibly fetch $2500 on the best of days.  Whereas the vintage guitar market goes into the hundreds of thousands of dollars. 

So outside of the garish or ugly aesthetic choices, (bad colors, drilling the name rail for ugly mods etc.) I see no problem with personalizing the the average $1200 Suitcase Rhodes.    Or $800 Stage Model.

Ray


   

[sean]

OK, I really need to stop commenting on subjects I don't know about...



David,

If you stop commenting on subjects that you don't know about, you will be violating the rules of the internet.

<insert slew of emoticons here>

Sean

[chava]

Ray,

I installed the VV backchecks in my '77 Stage, and I initially had the same concern about making a permanent change. But I also came to the conclusion that a modded piano that plays well would be worth more than an "all original" piano that doesn't.

Overall, I think they do a pretty good job. Since the hammer cam is in direct contact with the key pedestal, the hammer won't fall back against the backcheck until the key is released. So it only functions like a "real" backcheck half the time. That aside, I found they really cut down on hammer bounce and improve damping. It's true that you need a little patience to set them up just right, and they do have to be adjusted occasionally, but when they're dialed in, there is next no bounce. The action returns to its resting position and stops. No bouncing hammers means they're not tugging on the bridal straps and impeding damper function.

Like you, I also have a '74 Suitcase, and I know what you mean about clangy. I've got the clang, the bounce, the double strike, all of it.
It feels really heavy too. But before I put in backchecks, I'm going to do the bump mod, which I didn't do in the Stage. Looking over the Miracle Mod sticky, it suggests exactly what Max pointed out; that the bump also functions as a sort of backcheck. If it works well in that respect, I may forgo them this time. More likely, I'll do both.

[Max Brink]

I would suggest forgoing the back check. The VV tine piano that I crossed paths with at my workshop did not have their back check system and to the best of my knowledge none of their well designed pianos include them.

Even though it can overcome some of the symptoms of a Rhodes with poor action it is only a band-aid on a wound that requires more serious surgery. Every piano's action is a little different so it's tough to say exactly what a specific piano would need but on all of the fully restored pianos that we sell have 8-10+ hours of labor just spent rebuilding the key bed up from scratch in order to get it to feel and play just right.

If you're looking for a faster and easier solution than completely re-engineering your Rhodes' action it might be the right product for you but in the end it is only masking more serious action. My own opinion is that you would be better off directly confronting those action issues now rather than later.

[chava]

I suspect that the VV pianos don't have backchecks because they've done just that, re-engineered the action. Working from scratch, they've been able to do things one couldn't do with/to a Rhodes from the '70's.

VV has a YouTube video of the guys working on Donald Fagen's piano, and at one point you can see that they're installing backchecks, so they must have some confidence in their product. Perhaps I made it sound like my piano is in worse shape than it is. It's got no serious issues, but it definitely needs the bump.

[Student Rhodes]

Mine has a bump mod, but instead of a plastic tab under the felt, it's just an additional piece of felt on the leading edge of the pedastal.  Seems to work, I guess.

You guys have any thoughts on that issue?  Felt addition v. Plastic under felt?

Ray

[Max Brink]

The felt was used in the factory for a brief period of time and if I remember correctly the Rhodes manual also suggests adding it. However, the plastic will be more reliable over time than felts.

Their product works for what it is and I'm sure that they have confidence in it. What I'm suggesting, though, is that the problems that it solves are best addressed with a more comprehensive overhaul of the action.

Working from scratch, they've been able to do things one couldn't do with/to a Rhodes from the '70's.

Starting from scratch surely gave them a lot of control over the action of their piano and they did a terrific job from my experience. But I promise that any '70's Rhodes piano can be setup for a perfect 13/32" key dip and play like a dream. Some techs claim that you cannot shim or should not shim the front guide rail felts but I have the proof in my workshop that it is possible to shim them in order to achieve nearly uniform action setup from Rhodes to Rhodes. --And the control that this gives you over the dynamics and bark of the Rhodes is unbelievable!

[David Aubke]

Some techs claim that you cannot shim or should not shim the front guide rail felts but I have the proof in my workshop that it is possible to shim them in order to achieve nearly uniform action setup from Rhodes to Rhodes. --And the control that this gives you over the dynamics and bark of the Rhodes is unbelievable!

So, you use the front guide pin felts to limit the travel of the keys? How do you manage the stop-lock relationship between the pedestal and the hammer?

[Max Brink]

How do you manage the stop-lock relationship between the pedestal and the hammer?

In short I work backwards from that stop-lock position in order to ensure that it comes out just right... But it took me many hours of studying the action to get to the final combinations of shimming/leveling the balance rail, guide rail, and key bed.

The main problems that I was running into during the many hours I spent studying the action were double striking hammers, jamming/hyper-extending/choked hammer arms, shortened throw distance, and shallow/negative escapement issues. But I have solved all of these issues and the action now comes out nearly uniform for every piano that we professionally setup.

I have this action setup process down to 9-12 hours of labor for most pianos (and I think that's nearly as efficient as I will be able to do) but every one plays like an absolute dream once I'm done!

[chava]

 I still don't get how you stop the hammers from bouncing. When the key is released and the hammer falls back to its resting position, there's nothing to absorb the energy of the impact against the key pedestal, and the hammer bounces a little. If it bounces enough, it tugs on the bridal strap and interferes with the damper function. So how do you deal with that issue specifically?

Watching video of people playing the VV piano at NAMM, you can see that the keys rise smoothly to their resting position and stop.  How do you make that happen?

[Max Brink]

When the key is released and the hammer falls back to its resting position, there's nothing to absorb the energy of the impact against the key pedestal, and the hammer bounces a little. If it bounces enough, it tugs on the bridal strap and interferes with the damper function. So how do you deal with that issue specifically?

Right now my action setup is more of an art than a science since each keyboard requires slightly different adjustments. I doubt that it will ever be perfectly uniform but it's starting to become a lot more intuitive each time.

In some cases the bounce is coming from the thin felt that is at the back of the key bed. In others, adjusting the height of the key bed and balance rail has an affect on the perceived weight when in it is coming to an at rest position. In others it's simply that the damper arm has lost some of its tension... There are a number of ways...

Watching video of people playing the VV piano at NAMM, you can see that the keys rise smoothly to their resting position and stop.  How do you make that happen?

Once again there are a lot of ways that it can be done. I haven't had the opportunity to dissect their action design yet, only 20 minutes or so to play it with the lid off... But just having healthier damper arms and making adjustments to the Rhodes' design alone will go a long way to stop the bounce.

[prtarrell]

Yo,   I'm curious as to how the action performs when   the front rail punchings are shimmed to the point where the downward travel of the key is stopped, or partially stopped,  by contact with the felts. Also,  I get better performance  (repetition/feel) with the pedal off because the damper arm is helping the action return to rest position  to prepare for the next blow.       Comments¿    Tarrell

[chava]

That all makes sense, particularly the bit about the stronger dampers. I wasn't going to replace them, they seem in pretty good shape, but now I just might...