Removing or rotating tines on tone bars?

[AFeastOfFriends]

I got the vv grommet set and started on the left 0 bars. I'd read about how the original screw.s can be bent, but I figured it was only on the later Rhodes. Not so.

Is there an easy and effecient way to rotate the tines a couple degrees? They aren't perpendicular with the tone bars and end up being too far away from the pickups. And what size is the bolt? I had a 5/16 driver, but it was either the wrong size or the tines are on there too well for me to get off by hand.


Sorry for the iffy picture, computer died and I have tp use my phone.

[oliisfullysick]

If you have access to a vice, you can place the square part of the tine in between the jaws. loosening and tightening the tine becomes nice and easy then

[David Aubke]

Like oliisfullysick said,


This also helps with alignment as the vice jaws give you another line for your eye to follow.

I wouldn't try changing the alignment without loosening the screw. The top of the tine block is toothed to keep it from rotating.

[Alan Lenhoff]

Be careful not to over-tighten the bolt when you put it back together. The archives are full of people advising you to make sure it is really tight, but  I can tell you (from experience) that if you have the tine in a vice, and push hard with a socket wrench, you will sheer off the top of the bolt, and you'll be looking for a bolt extractor.

The spec for tightening this bolt is 35 INCH pounds of torque. That's not all that tight.  If you use a wrench and exert force on it at a point 6 inches away from the bolt, you'd be about right if you pushed it with six pounds of force. I'd think the force you can exert with three straight fingers pushing the wrench ought to do the job.

So, if you're using a long wrench, or you're pushing from your shoulder, or leaning your body weight on it when you tighten, or leaving a "Craftsman" imprint in your palm when you push, you're probably about to have an "Oh crap!" moment.

Alan

[AFeastOfFriends]

I needed a vice and socket wrench to get the tines off since on a whole lot of them the tine and screw rusted together with the tone bar. I just used a driver to tighten though. Enough to where I could get it off again without having to use a vice (but to where it was tight too), since the work bench is in the exterior garage and the Rhodes is in the house.


While the thread's open, a lot of the tines have this kind of chunky rust on them and I've been thinking about sanding it off for cosmetic/ease of tuning/handling reasons. I'd be using 320 for the really thick rust and then 400 when the majority of the exterior rust is gone. Would there be any effects on the tine such as tone, pitch, durability?

[David Aubke]

While the thread's open, a lot of the tines have this kind of chunky rust on them and I've been thinking about sanding it off for cosmetic/ease of tuning/handling reasons. I'd be using 320 for the really thick rust and then 400 when the majority of the exterior rust is gone. Would there be any effects on the tine such as tone, pitch, durability?

Looks like they're using Scotch-Brite at VV.

Mine were pretty rusty.


I cleaned the entire unit with a wire wheel.


Very pitted.

I've been playing on the tines for a couple of months now without incident.

On another set, I used sandpaper on the tines. They weren't in bad shape to start. I haven't reinstalled those yet.

[AFeastOfFriends]

I had completely forgotten about scotch-brite. I've already sanded about 15 tines, but there's still rust. It looks like the scotchbrite gets it all off. And fortunately, I think I have very minimal pitting. It looks like all the rust is sitting on the edges.

I think scotch brite would work on the pickups too, which are way worse than the tines. Would it work for the tone bars as well, or do they need to be plated?

[oliisfullysick]

I used a wire brush on the end of a drill. Mine had a fair amount of rust as it was left in a flooded basement that scotchbrite, sandpaper and kerosene were useless. They are in this thread http://ep-forum.com/smf/index.php?topic=5933.msg33394#msg33394.

I mounted the tine in the vice and very lightly went over them with the wire brush. Worked a treat just had to be more carefull with the longer ones but for them i mounted them halfway down the tine in the vice using the soft plastic attachment grip on the it. Didnt break a single tine.

I coated them in a thin layer of clear coat to stop them rusting again. Even with the pitting and clear coat it didnt effect the tone.

[David Aubke]

I think scotch brite would work on the pickups too, which are way worse than the tines. Would it work for the tone bars as well, or do they need to be plated?

I love my wire wheel. It's a six inch wheel on a bench grinder. I use it to clean everything including the pickups and tone bars.

I don't think the tone bars need to be plated any more or less than any other steel part. Of course, with no protection, they'll tarnish prematurely. If plating is not an option, I'm liking the idea of hitting them with a thin clear coat. The bare metal tone bars and other parts can be brought to an impressive shine with no plating (and even if they will be plated, they should get the same treatment anyway). If I may... [shill]these polishing 'cloths' do an incredible job in this department.[/shill]

The plater I used recently has a $50 minimum which he charged to do a complete set of 73 bars. Not too bad.
Summit Finishing in Moraine, OH. 937-424-5512

[LDS]

Regarding tone bars and tines - is the plating on it a health hazard? I thought the yellowish zinc on the tone bars and the harp frame itself was zinc chromate. Commercial electroplaters remove it using an acid bath because it is a known carcinogen.

The tines themselves don't appear to be plated, but the tine blocks do. Mine have a shiny silver plating on them. Possibly another hazard coating? Zinc cadmium?

[David Aubke]

Regarding tone bars and tines - is the plating on it a health hazard? I thought the yellowish zinc on the tone bars and the harp frame itself was zinc chromate. Commercial electroplaters remove it using an acid bath because it is a known carcinogen.

Yes, the iridescent yellow did historically involve toxic chemicals. But platers apparently have other means at their disposal now to recreate that finish. I don't know any of the terminology, but I have this less-toxic process done on my parts when having them zinc plated. It looks pretty good but, if I understood the guy correctly, doesn't provide as much protection as the "chromate conversion" process of old.

http://www.shadetreekeys.com/2011/11/10/plating/

[David Aubke]

I love my wire wheel. It's a six inch wheel on a bench grinder. I use it to clean everything including the pickups and tone bars.

I don't do this anymore. I bought a little blast cabinet from Eastwood and use glass bead. As I said earlier, it does leave a satin finish but it only takes a few seconds on a buffing wheel to bring it to a shine.

The wire wheel works pretty well but it took longer and sometimes if I was too aggressive, it would cause damage. I don't know the details (but I'd be very curious to find out if anyone knows), but there seems to be a second plating under the zinc. Nickel? If it's nickel, then why even bother with the zinc on top? Whatever it is, if I kept at it with the wire wheel, it would begin to kind of smear across the base metal and there was nothing to do but stop working on it.

[rhodesjuzz]

If there is much corrosion on the tone bars it might be very useful. But what if they look pretty good? Isn't it just eyeball candy? The tone bars on my piano might use some TLC but I'm afraid to damage the bars while it's not of any use 

--Roy

[David Aubke]

If there is much corrosion on the tone bars it might be very useful. But what if they look pretty good? Isn't it just eyeball candy?

The zinc plating does provide protection. Even assuming nobody ever spills a drink on your piano, I think bare tone bars would corrode or rust just from the atmospheric humidity. But zinc by itself is not yellow. And whereas, the old yellow chromate did add protection, the newer non-toxic yellow just adds appearance. Again, this is my recollection of a conversation with my plating guy. I'm not an expert on this.

[David Aubke]

If there is much corrosion on the tone bars it might be very useful. But what if they look pretty good? Isn't it just eyeball candy?

The zinc plating does provide protection. Even assuming nobody ever spills a drink on your piano, I think bare tone bars would corrode or rust just from the atmospheric humidity. But zinc by itself is not yellow. And whereas, the old yellow chromate did add protection, the newer non-toxic yellow just adds appearance. Again, this is my recollection of a conversation with my plating guy. I'm not an expert on this.

Or maybe I misunderstood your question. I certainly don't replate tone bars that still have their original plating intact. Only when some or all of them are corroded. Another thing I think I know about zinc plating is that it's not weatherproof. It protects the metal not by being impervious to moisture but by sacrificing itself. It corrodes preferentially to the metal. The white powdery look is what's left after the zinc has corroded. Once that white powder falls away, your tonebars are defenseless. So, in a way, zinc plating could be considered a consumable - something you'd expect to replace after a period of time.

[rhodesjuzz]

The white powdery look is what I've noticed on several tone bars. So actually you've already answered my question about when it is time to replate the bars. It is just I don't have the possibilities and facilities. Thank you David!

Have you never noticed the sound had changed after replating?

--Roy