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General => The Fender Rhodes Electric Piano => Topic started by: Student Rhodes on July 16, 2013, 03:45:08 AM

Title: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: Student Rhodes on July 16, 2013, 03:45:08 AM
This is a very cool youtube link to Ray's isolated track from "Riders On The Storm."
We've all heard the track a thousand times, but hearing the piano alone is revelatory.
Recorded in late '70, so I guess this is the sound of late Raymacs.  They sparkle on this cut, yet still have a lot of punch when he hits it. 
The piano might have had teardrop hammers, but felt cube tips at the least, no?
Interesting, shimmering vibrato.  Pictures from the session show a Stage model, so it must have been an outboard effect, I guess.

Check it out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsuAqc4Ezps&NR=1&feature=endscreen

Ray
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: Cormac Long on July 16, 2013, 05:18:08 PM
Excellent find.. that's one for my favorites list
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: Student Rhodes on July 16, 2013, 06:18:18 PM
Thinking about it, I wonder if Ray was playing through the vibrato channel of something like a Fender Twin? 
Would have been much simpler than plugging into some pedal, and the Twin was the amp Fender recommended.
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: The Real MC on July 17, 2013, 09:51:35 AM
Nice find.

That doesn't sound like the Twin Reverb.  There is clipping on that track that sounds more like transistors clipping, it's pretty obvious when he hits hard notes or when there are a cluster of notes like the descending pattern.  The tubes in the TR would overdrive mildly but not clip harshly like that.  You can hear the clipping wade in and out with the tremolo which is a telltale of transistor clipping in the preamp.  It isn't stereo tremolo so it may had been played on a piano with the Jordan preamp which was mono tremolo, and those Jordans weren't the cleanest Rhodes preamps.

Definitely sounds like Raymacs.  The notes below middle C have that trademark "woofiness" of Raymacs and not the pleasant "furr" of Torringtons.  Ray is also playing the bass ostinato throughout the song and the tone of the bass notes have that trademark Raymac timbre of mostly fundamental and few harmonics, radically different from Torrington tines.  Raymacs have a wonderful variable timbre in the top half of the piano that can be controlled with dynamic playing, which you really hear in this track.

The green pickups in the early Rhodes saturate on hard strikes of the tine.  That's the "punch" you hear here.  If you adjust their positions right, you can sound like you're slamming the piano when you're actually not.  Since Raymacs were the least durable tines (and hardest to find replacements), the less you can slam the tines the better.
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: Tim Hodges on July 17, 2013, 10:19:45 AM
Thanks for the link I've been playing it a few times since yesterday.

I wonder if that person will do anymore, I've love to download the MP3.
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: Alan Lenhoff on July 17, 2013, 10:42:17 AM
Excellent!  Thanks for posting it.

Alan
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: Ben Bove on July 17, 2013, 11:59:44 AM
I believe this classic recording was done with a Silvertop model - pre 1969 piano with Jordan preamp mono vibrato.
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: Student Rhodes on July 17, 2013, 12:26:41 PM
Quote from: bjammerz on July 17, 2013, 11:59:44 AM
Yes Real MC is correct on all points, this classic recording was done with a Silvertop model - pre 1969 piano with Jordan preamp mono vibrato.

Hey Ben,
Interesting... What's your source on this?  Photos allegedly from the session clearly show a Stage model, with no Silvertop anywhere in the room.
Ray
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: David Ell on July 17, 2013, 12:52:11 PM
Raymacs.
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: Student Rhodes on July 17, 2013, 02:55:11 PM
Found another pic where there's definitely a silver faced Fender amp that's mic'd near Ray's piano area. 

However, in the same collection of pics, I found a shot of Ray at a Rhodes with a harp cover that seems to have a slightly taller profile, which may indicate a Sparkletop, but because of lighting and angle, you can't be sure.
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: Ben Bove on July 17, 2013, 03:20:53 PM
Well I have no visual representation, but strictly on the audio side - to my ears it's a Jordan preamp with the vibrato and clipping that I hear.  Highly distinctive to me but I guess that's not to say he didn't plug it in somehow to a Fender amp.  I do recall the guitar on the track having the similar vibrato effect.

Would love to see photos of the session if they're available, but from what I'm going on that's what I hear.
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: Student Rhodes on July 17, 2013, 03:32:18 PM
Here's a link to a flickr account that has a bunch of photos from the LA Woman sessions at the Doors Workshop.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/18739723@N00/8470318169/in/photostream/

I certainly can't say if the days they took these photos were also the days they may have recorded "Riders", but some pics clearly show the equipment they were using.

Not that it matters.  Just topics for conjecture and discussion.
Best,
Ray
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: The Real MC on July 17, 2013, 03:44:14 PM
It still doesn't sound like the Twin Reverb.  It may not had been the Jordan preamp or sparkletop, but Fender did have solid state guitar amps during that time.
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: Ben Bove on July 17, 2013, 05:33:18 PM
Thanks for the photo links.  The stage Rhodes in the main pics is from 1970 with the 3rd hinge in the middle of the back of the piano.  So this piano would have most likely had the felt cube tips, wouldn't have been rubber tips as of yet.

I also see a pic of what looks like a Silvertop with Ray's hand on his head, but then I looked closer and it's a vox organ with the Silvertop Piano Bass on top (and a beer on the right). 

Still, the sound of the vibrato to me is the Jordan preamp.  Especially at 1:26 when it's turned on, there's that classic delay happening until the effect completely kicks in.  Not sure how to explain it, but it's like the circuit doesn't get 100% juice on immediate turn on of vibrato.  Also around 3:26 when the double striking is going on it really sounds like the heavier tear drop hammers flapping around, but as you said it's good conjecture and discussion at this point.

If I get a moment, I'd like to compare audio with my Silvertop at home.  The only things I can't compare are a 1970 or a vibrato channel on a fender amp.
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: pianotuner steveo on July 17, 2013, 06:01:42 PM
Thanks so much for this link! It is so cool to hear isolated. I thought I knew it note for note, but heard a couple of small surprises in there.
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: David Ell on July 17, 2013, 08:42:55 PM
I have never heard a '70 stage Rhodes sound that way. Even a '69 doesn't sound that way. It sounds like un-tapered raymacs to me. The lower half of the keyboard has that "bad" marimba sound. I wonder, will we ever know for sure?
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: The Real MC on July 17, 2013, 11:25:06 PM
Clearer shot of the piano

http://www.flickr.com/photos/18739723@N00/8470317717/in/photostream/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/18739723@N00/8470317717/in/photostream/)

There's a Fender tube amp under the piano with the JBL badge - with a mic on it.

Another with Ray at an old Wurlie

http://www.flickr.com/photos/18739723@N00/8471408748/in/photostream/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/18739723@N00/8471408748/in/photostream/)
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: pianotuner steveo on July 18, 2013, 08:45:26 AM
I have two theories about why the bass sounds the way it does. If you notice, the right hand part is louder than the left. i think that either :

A. He did the two parts (left hand, right hand) as seperate tracks, therefore the mix, EQ, reverb, etc is different between the two hands

OR

B. He actually used his piano bass for the left hand, because that was how he was used to playing.
That would make the bass sound different also.

Another question that I wish that I asked him about.
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: Alan Lenhoff on July 18, 2013, 10:48:45 AM
Quote from: pianotuner steveo on July 18, 2013, 08:45:26 AM
I have two theories about why the bass sounds the way it does. If you notice, the right hand part is louder than the left. i think that either :

A. He did the two parts (left hand, right hand) as seperate tracks, therefore the mix, EQ, reverb, etc is different between the two hands

OR

B. He actually used his piano bass for the left hand, because that was how he was used to playing.
That would make the bass sound different also.

Another question that I wish that I asked him about.

I'm not sure whether you're talking about the actual bass line on the song -- or just how the Rhodes sounds below middle C.  But, in case it's the former:

The bass line was played by a bass guitarist. Ray talks about it here:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZJ7xhu-wy4  (You can also see a bass player in the studio photos from the links posted in this thread.)

The Doors used a bass player in the studio quite often.

Alan
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: Ben Bove on July 18, 2013, 12:39:18 PM
Quote from: David Ell on July 17, 2013, 08:42:55 PM
II wonder, will we ever know for sure?

Exactly.

Anyhow, either way it's either a silvertop Rhodes or that 1970 stage through a vibrato channel.  Both Raymacs and felt hammered heads is they way you'll get that sound.  A guitar amp expert might chime in better.
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: Cormac Long on July 18, 2013, 12:44:09 PM
Out of curiosity.. is this track isolated from the recording using software or is it an actual master track that someone got hold of. The amount of detail being preserved seems unbelievable for something that just filtered out the rest.

I've heard master tracks before where you would hear bleed through of other music.. however they were mostly from vocal tracks which picked up leakage from headphones playing back session demos that were used to then lay down individual tracks again.
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: Ben Bove on July 18, 2013, 02:59:04 PM
I will note though - at 1:35 when the vibrato kicks in, I feel both hands are playing and there isn't a break for a hand to grab the vibrato knob - it sounds like continuous playing and maybe vibrato was activated by a foot switch to a guitar amp or I don't know if they were messing with effects on the mix end of it / punching recording.  My feeling after hearing it at this point, Ray isn't grabbing the silvertop vibrato knob if he's playing live.  Which is highly interesting to me.  So it's room for argument on the 1970 stage thing.  Can't say for certain either way.
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: The Real MC on July 18, 2013, 05:26:51 PM
Did the early stage pianos have the square resonators or twisted flat ones?
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: David Ell on July 18, 2013, 06:27:29 PM
 Twisted flat bars for '70. 
I worked on two '70's in the last 6 months and they sure didn't have that marimba sound in the middle of the keyboard. I have seen many '70's and none had that sound. In the treble yes, or more so. But not that funky wooden thunk. The two '69's I owned didn't have that marimba sound. But the first '69 I had was loaded with 47 dead tines. They had a sound somewhat like what we hear.
It could be a '70 with dead tines or a '70 with an older harp. But it usually went the other way around: An older harp with non tapered raymacs was replaced with a harp with tapered tines later. I have seen several Buzz Watson mods where that was done. It could be a '70 that "just sounded" that way. But at this point I could just be muddying the waters. I guess the other band members might remember.
Whatever the case may be, it's a great sound. I would love to have a '70 with that marimba sound.
 
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: Student Rhodes on July 18, 2013, 07:07:13 PM
Quote from: bjammerz on July 18, 2013, 02:59:04 PM
I will note though - at 1:35 when the vibrato kicks in, I feel both hands are playing and there isn't a break for a hand to grab the vibrato knob - it sounds like continuous playing and maybe vibrato was activated by a foot switch to a guitar amp

Notice in the shot, there's a vinyl bag for some kind of Gibson pedal (Just as you can see the Vox vinyl bag for the wah wah on top of the Wurli).  Perhaps there was some kind of Gibson/Maestro vibrato pedal in the signal chain.
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: David Ell on July 18, 2013, 07:31:06 PM
 It's the wooden marimba sound in the midrange that threw me. I had a sparkle top that sounded just like that. I hear felt, raymacs and mono vibrato. But there is something about that marimba sound that gets me. It's a sound like tines aren't flexing very much. It could very well be that '70. If it is, I want that same set up.
I just did a '70 (with my pre amp) into a twin and it was awesome. Only the twin didn't have JBL's. That could be why the highs sound so sweet. 
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: pianotuner steveo on July 19, 2013, 08:53:28 AM
Alan, I am talking about the way the Rhodes sounds for the left hand part, not the bass guitar. It sounds like it is mixed lower to me.
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: The Real MC on July 19, 2013, 09:49:31 AM
My '67 sparkletop sounds an awful lot like ROTS.  Amplitude envelope, timbre, dynamic attack unique to Raymacs with square resonators.  I've owned enough later Rhodes pianos to know the difference.

If you look at the pics of those "sessions", it looks more like a rehearsal space than a recording room.  Scant isolation, very close proximity to neighboring musicians, and microphones more suited for stage not recording studios.  That stage piano may had been for rehearsal purposes.
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: Alan Lenhoff on July 19, 2013, 10:03:37 AM
Quote from: The Real MC on July 19, 2013, 09:49:31 AM
If you look at the pics of those "sessions", it looks more like a rehearsal space than a recording room.  Scant isolation, very close proximity to neighboring musicians, and microphones more suited for stage not recording studios.  That stage piano may had been for rehearsal purposes.

Good eye. It wasn't a studio.  But it was where the album was recorded.  From a Robbie Kreiger interview:

"Well, because [producer] Paul Rothchild didn't want to be involved, we ended up saying, "Hey, let's just do this ourselves." And I think it was Bruce who had the idea of doing it at our rehearsal space rather than having to be under the gun of a big-money recording studio. So that sounded like a good idea. Bruce wanted to make it as natural and comfortable as possible for us, and that really worked. We knew the sound of that place from rehearsing in it all the time, and Jim loved the sound he got in the bathroom, singing-wise."

If you look at some of the photos, you'll see a couple of things you don't normally see in studios:  a jukebox and a pinball machine.

Alan
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: The Real MC on July 19, 2013, 10:59:27 AM
And the mystery deepens...
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: Alan Lenhoff on July 19, 2013, 11:45:57 AM
Quote from: The Real MC on July 19, 2013, 10:59:27 AM
And the mystery deepens...

After we solve this, we can move on to investigate what really happened to Jim Morrison in Paris.  ;-)
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: David Ell on July 19, 2013, 12:23:51 PM
It's sounding more like a twin to me now. Is that the spring reverb I hear? Could it be that the hard marimba sound in the midrange is just a combination of double strike plus damper kiss? It reminds me of how a fork sounds when you put your finger on the tone bar. Damper kiss and double strike sound like that. He is slamming those keys. 
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: ForkintheRhodes on July 19, 2013, 02:47:29 PM
Well what I can make out from what I hear during the solo is that you can hear the low end of the Rhodes playing the bassline, it's not a bass guitar. HOWEVER, in the beginning and during the verses he doesn't sound like he's playing a bassline. I don't see why he would play the Rhodes Piano Bass, just because it's one more thing to mike and it wouldn't sound as crisp on record as a bass guitar, hence Jerry Scheff on bass and a bassist on almost every studio track they did (except for "The End" and "When the Music's Over" where it's clearly a Rhodes bass. BUT, on the first album you can hear both Rhodes bass and bass guitar. The Rhodes has more of that groaning sound, and the bass guitar has more of that clicking, staccato sound. Prime example of that is "Soul Kitchen", it's a nice counterpoint.) Besides, putting a Rhodes bass on top of a Rhodes isn't like putting one on a Vox or Gibson organ, it's much higher up and kind of cumbersome. He probably just did the bassline in the Riders solo so he could have something to do with the left hand. Towards the mid-range the marimba sound comes out, but in the low end it's a pretty run of the mill low end Rhodes sound to me. BUT, the sound in general in the isolation sounds like it's hugging the high end, very treble-y, and the Rhodes in the photos doesn't have Janus controls, they probably did that with a Fender Twin and did the vibrato on the Rhodes itself. It sounds like it's tube drive to me in the solo when he hits the tines really hard, but I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: Ben Bove on July 19, 2013, 03:06:59 PM
Yes on this version here he definitely didn't use a piano bass - 4:15ish when the solo ends and vibrato comes on, it's on both left and right hands.

Splitting hairs, the other fuel for the 1970 fire, is at 1:26 - the bass octaves don't sound like they came from a silvertop.

I know someone that has a 1970 original stage felt tips, maybe we can do a little experiment for kicks - silvertop vs. 1970 stage / twin.
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: pianotuner steveo on July 19, 2013, 05:19:18 PM
I wasn't that serious about him using the piano bass on top of the Rhodes, I just meant it was a possibile scenario.  Good catch Ben, on the vibrato around 4:15.  Didn't notice that before.


Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: The Real MC on July 24, 2013, 04:06:28 PM
Here's something interesting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAP-EIs3AWo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAP-EIs3AWo)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFpuMFlKXjY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFpuMFlKXjY)

An early 1968 silvertop with Peterson preamp.  You can hear the stereo tremolo.  The ROTS descending lick is demonstrated in the 1st video.  You can hear how the Peterson preamp sounds cleaner and different from the Jordan preamp.
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: David Ell on July 28, 2013, 09:58:43 AM
A '70 sounds out of this world with my pre amp. I recently did one and could not stop playing it. Remove the mud with the pre amp and it's sounds like a hopped up Wurly, only better.
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: ummagumma on August 12, 2020, 12:21:13 AM
 I have been trying to figure out the bass signal in this isolated recording: at first I thought it was just room bleed, or maybe he dubbed the bass seperately...it almost sounds like a different instrument compared to the right hand, since the level is drastically lower

  *edit* I just realized Ray is not playing bass at all, until 1 minute. but you CAN hear the bleed from the bass guitar up until then. afterwards you have the bass gtr bleed plus Ray's left hand

but at 3:14 & 4:06 he hits a bass note that is almost as loud as the lead. So I think Ray was just playing the left hand much quieter than the right

if they had an 8 track I doubt they would have split up the keys

  if vibrato was a footswitch, and that Fender amp is down by his feet, I'd think you might hear the click?

I hear vibrato from the beginning of the track until 1 min. then it turns off

and at 1:35 it sure kicks up! must have been a footwitch. then 1:58 switches off again. or maybe when they mixed it later on they added something?

Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: Alan Lenhoff on August 12, 2020, 08:30:38 AM
The Rhodes chapter I wrote in "Classic Keys" tells who played bass on a number of Doors recordings (some are bass guitarists, some were done by Ray, and some had both).  This was mostly based on an interview with Robby Krieger, and supports what you are hearing: Light My Fire has both bass guitar (Larry Knechtel) and left hand bass.

The volume differences you noted of the left hand bass versus the lead may have resulted from Ray playing his bass lines on a Piano Bass, rather than playing the bass in the low register of the 73.  Stop me if I'm telling you something you already know, but the tone filter circuit on the name rail of a Piano Bass removes upper harmonics, creating a rounder, more mellow and fundamental tone than what you'd hear on a 73.  Bass played on a 73 is not nearly as effective.  (Although they both would sound identical if you took the signal from each instrument off its harp, bypassing its name rail.) I don't know which instrument Ray used for his bass lines on that song, but generally there would be a good reason to use the Piano Bass if you had both instruments available.

Alan

Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: ummagumma on August 12, 2020, 01:56:18 PM

hmm, possible, but it doesn't sound like a piano bass to me: it has the fuller sound of a regular MKI to my ears?

especially check out the 2 loud notes at 3:14 & 4:06 in that isolated track
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: Alan Lenhoff on August 12, 2020, 02:43:46 PM
Even after listening to the track carefully -- and firing up my Piano Bass and my 73 -- I'll stick with my prior statement: "I don't know which instrument Ray used."  What makes the comparison most difficult for me is that my '72 Piano Bass with neoprene hammer tips doesn't sound like the '60's-vintage bass Ray typically used, probably with square tone bars and felt hammer tips.

For what it's worth, a friend of mine plays keyboards in Robby Krieger's band, and plays Ray's parts note-for-note. He says what he hears on ROTS is Ray playing the bass line on a Piano Bass, but an octave higher than the bass guitar to keep the bottom end from being muddy.  Is he right?  Well, he's got a great ear, but the recording was done decades before he was born, so he was hardly a witness.  So who can say?

Alan

Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: ummagumma on August 12, 2020, 07:01:02 PM
 ha! well it is interesting to speculate!

why don't you ask your friend, to ask Robby what he remembers?

a piano bass would be conspicuous on top of the MKI, especially as it's not in any of the pictures of the sessions in their LA workplace

actually, I've always wondered where Robby's gtr amp was, as I think the amp by Jim's feet was a vocal monitor? maybe Robby had it in the other room? there is a darker Fender amp against the wall, but the other gtr player was plugged into it. and I saw an unused Twin beside the drum kit, against the wall on Ray's side
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: ummagumma on August 12, 2020, 07:14:09 PM
 another thing: I don't think the amp Ray used was a twin. it looks too tall to me, and the top speakers are side-by-side. so I think it's a 4x10 silver face Fender amp? SF twins had the speakers mounted diagonally

*edit* I guess I am wrong about that! the amp by Jim's feet is a twin and the speakers are side-by-side. weird my '73 SF twin was diagonal
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: Eminor on August 16, 2020, 09:51:15 PM
This isn't an isolated track but an interesting outtake (take 10) form the ROTS recording session. There's a few minutes of tuning and jamming at the beginning - maybe your ears can pick up a clue somewhere in there....?   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1z3lZC4NUpI

Also, some cool pics of the LA Woman sessions accompany the audio.

Chris
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: pianotuner steveo on August 17, 2020, 06:12:23 PM
If you look at the pics with the outtakes you can see it is definitely a stage piano. In at least one picture you can see the Wurlitzer that he used on a couple of tracks. (Queen of the Highway, I think?) and at least one track "Eye of the Storm" on Other Voices (post Morrison)
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: ummagumma on August 27, 2020, 06:19:44 PM
 Eminor, thx for posting that outtake!

and based on the photos, we can deduce the trem was the from Fender Twin & not the Rhodes, as a MK1 stage doesn't have trem

if he *was* playing a piano bass, it must have been plugged into the twin along with the MK1, as the trem syncs up right/left hand

and that twin by Jim's feet might have been Robby's, miked from behind? I don't see a mic in front of it

of course, I am assuming that the pics are depicting the setup they used, for this particular song: quite possibly they moved things around, and we don't have any photos of the actual recording in question
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: ummagumma on June 18, 2021, 06:36:27 PM
Saw an interview with Bruce Botnick, who says the Rhodes was recorded DI into the mixing console

He even isolates a few seconds of it from a mixing board

It's in the "mr mojo risin' " documentary
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: ummagumma on June 18, 2021, 07:12:36 PM
I am wondering if they took a DI out of the Twin Reverb?

Otherwise how did Ray get the trem on & off?

It would also explain the lack of footswitch noise, that surely would have been picked up, if that Twin had been miked
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: ummagumma on June 18, 2021, 07:43:56 PM
Haha, then he goes on to say:

"He wasn't playing through an amplifier"

So there goes that theory  8)

He must have had a vibrato footpedal though, as the rail on the MKI in those shots is stock
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: ummagumma on June 19, 2021, 01:57:25 PM
Thinking about this: Ray must have been playing through an amplifier, how else could the band hear what he was doing?

I don't see any monitor headphones and I doubt they had return lines from the 8 track running back into a monitor

So I bet they took a DI off the twin reverb. Although there is clearly a mic on the twin, you can see the stand in the pics
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: sookwinder on October 12, 2021, 09:33:23 AM
It's not a Rhodes, it is a Wurlitzer. 
Most likely the wooden framed one seen in a couple of the shots of their recording set up in the rehearsal room, where they all retreated to days after Rothchild told them they were playing bad cocktail music.

- The stage Rhodes (seen in the photos of the rehearsal room) does not have vibrato
- A SF Fender twin was not used as the vibrato sound on those amps is completely different and clicks come in every time you adjust the settings
- Bruce Botnick said he DI'd the keyboards for the LAW album  (most likely because if any of the keyboards where plugged into an amp it would bleed everywhere in that small rehearsal room)
- The overdrive/distortion you hear is solid state electronic distortion, exactly the same as that from the preamp in a wurli
- The vibrato sounds exactly like a wurli
- I do not know of any vibrato unit/pedal from 1971 that sounds like a Wurli vibrato

I have never been able to achieve the ROTS keyboard sound on my 73 Rhodes stage or any other Rhodes, my 200A Wurli gets it every time.

If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck ....  you don't try and create scenarios where you attempt to prove it is a cat.
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: pianotuner steveo on October 27, 2021, 07:55:44 AM
No, it is a Rhodes. He only used a Wurlitzer on 2 or 3 tracks over the years. I can't think of any other tracks with Wurlitzers other than the tracks I mentioned above.

The vibrato may sound like Wurlitzer vibrato, but the piano is a felt hammer Rhodes. The pianos sound almost nothing alike
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: sookwinder on October 28, 2021, 10:46:24 AM
Ok ... I'll take the bait;
1. How do you explain the Wurlitzer tremolo sound used on ROTS?
The Rhodes used for the LA Woman sessions was a stage Rhodes and had no vibrato of any kind.
Bruce Botnick has stated in interviews that the keyboards were DI'd and as such were not put through amps, eliminating the option of using a trem circuit in the amp
2. Your statement (paraphrasing) that there are only a few tracks that wurlitzers were used in and ROTS is not one of them thus it is set in stone that the keyboard used on ROTS is not a Wurlitzer is a circular argument and holds no water. That is what we are discussing and the fact that you have said it isn't a Wurlitzer with out any evidence means nothing
3. What do you mean they sound nothing like each other? I own a 200A (mid 70s) and a 73 stage Rhodes. If I want to get the ROTS sound I just turn on the Wurlitzer and stick it into a valve preamp and adjust the level of overdrive on the preamp and level of vibrato on the Wurlitzer
I have never been able to get even close to the sound on the stage Rhodes
The action on the Rhodes is nothing like the Wurlitzer and to achieve the note placement and feel I can only manage that again with the Wurlitzer
4. The sound of the overdrive / distortion of the keyboard track for ROTS is EXACTLY like that of a Wurlitzer when hitting this keys too heavily with the volume set at 10. It is solid state preamp distortion with the attack of the note exactly how one would expect the Wurlitzer to sound. Again not something one would expect with a stage Rhodes. To achieve the solid state distortion sound on the note attack the stage Rhodes would have to be put into a trem/vibrato unit that reproduced the Wurlitzer vibrato then into a solid state preamp and then finally into a valve preamp if the recording desk.  I lay any odds that did not occur and using the logic of Occam's razor the logical conclusion is that a Wurlitzer was used

Then the question is was there a Wurlitzer available in the rehearsal room / studio set up and the answer is yes.

Lastly this question is directed to any and all who read this thread
Why is there so much debate as to what keyboard was used on ROTS?
The answer is because basically no one over the past 50 years has been able to achieve the sound heard on the recording when using the "accepted type of keyboard ", namely a stage Rhodes (as seen in all the photos from the session)
If one removes the pre conceived notion that is MUST BE a Rhodes and looks (listens to the musical evidence then the logical answer is that it is a Wurlitzer (especially considering the vibrato and solid state distortion that can easily be heard in the recordings)
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: karnevil78 on October 28, 2021, 09:13:14 PM
On the final studio recording I can hear mainly the Rhodes. On the isolated track you can hear the unmistakable overtones of the tines. I have used an old Acoustic Corp head that had a scarily similar tremolo effect to the one on Riders. They might have used one of those as AC flooded them with these amps in 68.

With that said, they initially started working on Riders at Sunset Studios (before Paul Rothchild left) and the first demo was recorded with a Wurly (no tremolo though) and the Piano Bass. You can listen to it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUmqGggw0oc

They might have used some of these tracks in the final version and if that's the case there should be both a Wurly and a Rhodes in there. Ray said it himself that John Densmore sat in with Bruce Botnick to do the final editing and Ray couldn't even recognise his own solo in the end as it was dissected to small parts and put back together in a different order.

About the bass on the final version it's Jerry Scheff on his Fender Precision Bass, with Ray playing along the bass on the lower end of the 73.
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: pianotuner steveo on October 29, 2021, 08:45:07 AM
I'm sorry, but I tuned a piano for Ray Manzarek in 1999, and got to hang out with him. It IS a RHODES. We talked about it. He TOLD ME it was a Rhodes. That is my evidence!
Aside from the fact that it is very easy to tell the two instruments apart. Wurlitzers do not have the "chime" of a Rhodes. You can't duplicate the descending part on a Wurlitzer. There is not enough sustain. ( "The rain part" as Ray says)

I've never heard a Wurlitzer sound like a Rhodes, but have heard some Rhodes sound a bit like a Wurli, especially the early felt hammers or felt tips, which is what you are hearing. I have no explanation for the vibrato.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3deQXzV-qTk&t=1s


Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: pianotuner steveo on October 29, 2021, 09:27:56 AM
He likely used a suitcase, probably his own. I know the photos show a stage, but that may have belonged to the studio.
Title: Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
Post by: ummagumma on August 25, 2022, 02:54:05 PM
For anyone who thinks otherwise, Ray says himself he used a Rhodes, check it out: