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Messages - tnelson

#1
Another suggestion: are you sure the tine is cut to correct length?  My piano had a range of incorrect-length (too short)  tines that had been tuned to pitch with extreme tuning spring positions. When I rearranged them into the correct length/pitch arrangement, they really came to life, both brightness and sustain.  Required inserting a new tine into the range and shifting others up, disassembling and reassembling the new tine-tonebar combinations.  A lot of work, but made a big difference.  I polished all the tines with Wenol and ground the ends to exact lengths while I was at it.
#2
Some nice playing by Evans in the group of Steve Wilson. Nice playing by Wilson (sax),  Ugonna Okegwo (bass) and Bill Stewart (drums), too.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=102700887

This is a live performance at Kennedy Center jazz club last October re-presented on the NPR JazzSet webstream. Evans plays about half the set on a Rhodes. Sounds like mostly DI. His Rhodes solos on Anna, Chrysalis and Ms. Angelou are impressive.

If you want to enjoy the music on your own terms, you might capture/record the webstream, edit out the NPR blab, and track the tunes.
#3
The Fender Rhodes Electric Piano / BackRail/Key End Cloth
February 08, 2009, 03:55:53 PM
I think I decreased dip by a little over 1/16 inch by going from "thin" to "medium thin" on my piano, but don't assume the same will be true for yours.  Why not take the action out and test some added thicknesses under a key, using veneers or feeler gauges of known thickness?
#4
The Fender Rhodes Electric Piano / BackRail/Key End Cloth
February 08, 2009, 05:00:51 AM
Are you replacing it to change key dip?  I used the "medium thin" backrail cloth from www.vandaking.com to slightly reduce key dip in my 1975 action. The "thin" cloth is probably same as the original in my piano. If you don't need to change key dip, you can restore some of the anti-key-bounce damping of your original cloth just by fluffing the cloth with a stiff brush and blowing with canned air.
#5
This is one instance in which the adjustment of a Rhodes is just like that for a conventional piano. If a key is tilted,  adjust its pin on the balance rail.  If it is mis-spaced, adjust its front rail pin. One way to adjust without damaging a pin is to use a tool called a key spacer (or offset key spacer).  This enables you to gently lever the pin to one side or the other from the front end of the key bed. If you don't already have a piano tool kit, you will probably need a compatible universal handle for it also.  Both are available from piano supply companies.  If you decide not to use the specialized tool, be careful not to damage the smooth surface of the pins with whatever you do use.
#6
If you tune by an electronic tuner, it's still a good idea to finish by touching up the relative tuning by ear, especially in the middle octaves.  Check the beats on intervals as for a conventional piano.  This makes a difference if you want to hear clean chords instead of the mud that often characterizes chords played on Rhodes. You obviously need the harp down to do this, and can make slight tuning adjustments by twisting the tuning springs. You'll hear the difference if you play/record direct. If you mostly play single note lines or through distortion and other effects, it probably isn't worth doing this---takes a lot of concentration.

You may be technically in perfect tune by the electronic meter, but it still might not sound optimum, because of the way the individual notes on your particular piano interact. These days I think most of the pro tuners of acoustic piano use an electronic tuning aid to get a piano in tune initially, then go through and test intervals and touch up unisons by ear. This is called "hybrid" tuning (electronic plus ear).
#7
The Fender Rhodes Electric Piano / Uneven action / feel
January 07, 2009, 08:18:40 AM
Try just cleaning and fluffing your backrail cloth before deciding to replace.  They get compacted over the years, and a wire brush or even a toothbrush can restore some of that.

If you want to replace it to change keydip, you can find them at www.vandaking.com. They come in several thicknesses.  I used a "medium-thin" backrail cloth to reduce keydip in my 1975 Mark I. Note that they are sold as backrail cloth, not felt, because they are woven. They come as a single strip of adequate length to do an 88, and you will need to trim to 73 length.
#8
Another benefit of testing and adjusting octaves and intervals by ear (after the electronic tuning gets you in theoretical tune)  is that you can use richer chord voicings because the midrange "mud" largely disappears and midrange clarity appears. It takes a lot of concentration to tune the Rhodes by ear, however, because the beats can be hard to hear and count, at least in my experience.
#9
Parts, Service, Maintenance & Repairs / Harp Shims
August 08, 2008, 05:18:20 AM
Another possible source of scraps of wood veneer is a cabinet shop that makes kitchen cabinets or other architectural woodwork.  They go through loads of hardwood veneer because much of what they make is of plywood faced with veneer selected by the customer.  I doubt that the scraps are valued enough to be saved, because they work with large areas.
#10
Parts, Service, Maintenance & Repairs / Harp Shims
August 07, 2008, 05:05:48 PM
If you're near a lumberyard or woodworking shop, just get some random pieces of wood veneers. Sheets should be available in many thicknesses, easy to cut with a utility knife. Stack as needed to add up to different thicknesses.  Much easier than cutting thin pieces to thickness on a saw.  You can glue them together when you find the total thickness you want.
#11
A couple of information sources you might find very sobering are the piano technicians' discussion groups at PTG (Piano Technicians Guild) and PianoWorld.  This is where professional techs (mostly in US) for acoustic pianos swap information. Every time the Yamaha CP's come up, almost all of the techs agree with the views you just read above by SteveO:  they are horrible to tune and maintain.  Of course, if you are amplifying the output in a rock context, the fine tuning that is the goal for tuning an acoustic piano may be irrelevant.
#12
Oscar Peterson plays Rhodes on at least one of the two-piano albums he did with Count Basie.  Can't remember the title, but you should be able to search. Haven't heard it for a while, but my recollection is that he played the Rhodes just like he plays an acoustic piano----very full and busy---but was recorded so clearly (direct?) that all those notes and huge chord voicings are distinct.
#13
You sound like you're looking for 70's fusion players. However, if you're open to straight-ahead jazz, a lot of jazz pianists (in addition to Hancock and Evans) recorded albums in the 70's with some or all Rhodes tracks.  Hank Jones, Tommy Flanagan, Oscar Peterson, George Cables, Steve Kuhn, etc. Some are trio recordings with just Rhodes, bass and drums. A lot of contemporary jazz players are recording things now at least as interesting and inspiring on Rhodes (with better recording quality, too) as the 70's stuff. Check out Uri Caine's playing with Dave Douglas, if you can handle outstanding trumpet playing along with the Rhodes.
#14
No tech support? Quite the opposite! Chris at Vintage Vibe is one of the most helpful and responsive guys around.
#15
The Wurlitzer Electric Piano / Amp for Wurly
October 25, 2007, 12:43:54 PM
Here's a tip I got from a recording engineer about using a DI with the Wurli: turn the Wurli preamp volume full on, and turn the trim pot for the AUX output jack all the way on (I have a 200A).  I tried various settings of these, and found that he was right: this gives you the maximum tonal and dynamic range out of the Wurli itself, at least with a passive DI, which usually has lots of headroom. Of course, you need to cut out the internal power amp and speakers with a dummy plug in the Phone jack, or whatever is the appropriate way for the particular model. Among the few sound  engineers I contacted when I was trying to figure out my preferred sound, the consensus seemed to be to run Wurli's direct, but to record/mix Rhodes with a blend of direct and miked speaker, either from Suitcase or a "character" guitar amp.
#16
I'd check out Uri Caine, too.  Primarily a jazz pianist, he has used Rhodes in many musical projects and contexts, from relatively straightahead postbop with Dave Douglas quintet and The Philadelphia Project, to out-there electronica with Bedrock.  His approach is more pianistic than some other Rhodes-playing jazz pianists, who have a more "synth keyboard" approach on the Rhodes, at least to my ears.  You can find in-depth interviews with him at the www.allaboutjazz.com website, including some discussion of his use of Rhodes.
#17
The Wurlitzer Electric Piano / Amp for Wurly
October 25, 2007, 05:46:34 AM
A good quality DI may eliminate most of the hum in your system. Check out the Wurli sound through a DI before assuming it is too "sterile" and needs coloring through an amp and speaker, instead of direct to a PA.  It was a revelation to me to hear it this way.
#18
The Wurlitzer Electric Piano / US: Wurly case
October 08, 2007, 03:58:38 PM
If you are shipping on airlines and trucks, you need an ATA-approved flight case or a similarly heavy-duty shipping container. I'm sure people like Chris at Vintage Vibe, Steve at Speakeasy, and other pro shops have shipped overseas, so they probably are your best sources of advice. You can find the pro flight cases (Anvil, Calzone, etc.) at the online music shops, specialty case shops, etc. They won't be cheap, though.  The Wurli insides seem relatively delicate, and perhaps Chris or others have advice about packing some cushioning inside the piano to protect the action from bouncing around too much.  I suppose you could even have it crated on a shipping palette and use an international shipper instead of checking it on your airline.
#19
I agree with Steve O as to basic strategy.  It takes extra effort to keep flipping the harp up to adjust springs, but I find it just too awkward and imprecise to move tuning springs with any tool. Much more precise to rotate the springs by hand.  At the treble end, it often takes just a slight rotation to move the spring the right amount.  Doug (dnarkosis) has success doing this, harp-down,  with a hemostat, but I wasn't able. I'll restate an observation I made in the past: it's worth doing the final critical tuning by ear, counting beats on intervals, after you have the electronic tuner satisfied.  It improves the tightness of the sound, especially in midrange. This is something that takes such small adjustments that you'll have great difficulty prodding the springs along the tine in small enough distances with a tool, even tapping it gently with a hammer.
#20
The Wurlitzer Electric Piano / Old Wurlitzer
August 15, 2007, 05:05:05 AM
I don't have personal experience with older Wurli's like the 112, but listen to the sound clips of them at the Vintage Vibe website.  Maybe not so practical for gigging, but they certainly can sound great.
#21
Two small PA speaker enclosures plus a powered stereo mixer or a mixer that has separate amps for "monitor" and "speakers." Run your two output channels from the preamp into two mixer inputs. If it has monitor/speaker paths, run input-1 to monitor and input-2 to speaker. Your two speaker enclosures are connected one to monitor output and the other to speaker output.  If it has a stereo path, pan one input full into each channel (L/R), and each channel to one speaker. You can enhance the stereo effects by placing your speaker enclosures on opposite sides of the stage.  However, even a small space at low volume can be reflective and boomy enough to make it difficult to hear yourself play through the PA speakers  if they're too distant from you, and you may want to adjust your stereo ping-pong and speaker placement to deal with cancellation/reinforcement of reflections.
#22
If you opt for a handtruck, get one with pneumatic tires, to provide some cushioning over bumps.

If your regular home-to-practice route includes a short flight of stairs, I recommend making a ramp. I made a simple one from two strips of plywood, each about 12-15 inches wide, for the two wheels of the handtruck. I added some edging to each, so the wheels cannot wander off the edge.  The space between the two plywood tracks is enough to allow you to step up or down with one of your feet between the tracks.  The advantage is that you don't subject the piano to the bumping up and down the steps, and the skids on your handtruck don't damage the steps.  If you have a long run of stairs, you can rig a winch and crank the piano up the ramp.  Otherwise, you really do need a friend to help carry.  Lifting solo will eventually injure your back.  And wouldn't you really rather be playing music than working out to become a weight-lifter or recovering from injury?  I'll bet I'm not the only person who has noticed that lifting and setting up my Rhodes immediately before playing can stress the fingers, hands, arms and shoulders enough to interfere with my playing touch for a while into the practice or gig.
#23
If it's one of the felts for lower notes, these damper felts often swell and expand over time, becoming floppy.  You may be able to cure this just by trimming it back with a razor, but if this is the problem, you'll eventually want to replace the felts in that range with firmer new felts. No need to change the metal damper parts; you just trim off the old felts and glue on new ones.
#24
Sounds to me like you are basically proposing to do what a decent PA system would do with the signal from the preamp, except packaged into the suitcase bottom.

Also regarding the clarity in the midrange, I've suggested before that another factor that greatly influences this range in particular is the precision of tuning.  The beating of sustained intervals has a big impact on how "muddy" this region sounds. Tune by the intervals, and midrange chords become more piano-like and distinct.
#25
The long tines tend to be most sensitive to the pull of the magnet in the pickup, or at least the most noticable in changing the pitch.  If your pickups are close to the ends of the tines, this is probably what you are hearing. Even with pickups at an average distance, some of this is normal, because the force from the magnet becomes relatively more significant as the energy (amplitude) in the tine decays away. You just don't hear it as soon.
#26
I've seen recommendations for  Matt Cunitz (510-527-2067) at Vintage Keyboard Repair in Berkeley for Wurli, Rhodes, and other vintage keyboards.  No personal experience with him (I'm on East Coast), but he has a good reputation. I think he does house calls in the Bay Area.  He's also a player...
Good luck!
#27
Rob,
Many thanks! This is wonderful!  As you say, your ears need to be the guide when actually making the adjustments, but your plots of what we're hearing are so revealing.  Quite true what you say about needing to avoid being misled by volume and sustain when listening for harmonic character.  I've learned that the hard way.  There's a big psychoacoustic factor in getting a Rhodes set up by ear, though. Ear fatigue, room ambience, context (what I listened to most recently, or who I'm playing with), and some Factor X about the sonic content of Rhodes output can make a particular set up "sound" completely different to me each time I play it, even though the settings of the piano and amp are the same.  I'm sure we all experience that---my ear/brain interpretation of a live Rhodes sound seems not as stable as for other instruments.
#28
It would be fascinating to see a comparison of the same note, same strike dynamic, but with the tine/pickup intonation adjusted between the extremes of "more overtone" and "more fundamental," to see visually how the harmonic content changes with this basic Rhodes adjustment.  Thanks for sharing your analysis!
#29
Have a look at the Rhodes action diagram side views in the service manual. The amount that changing the key dip affects hammer throw depends on quite a few other factors: the height of the action rail felts and punchings, shape and contact point of the key pedestal to the hammer butt cam, escapement setting, etc.  If a piano has a large key dip, chances are that the entire action needs an inspection/adjustment. The Rhodes actions were assembled and rough adjusted pretty quickly, and not all of them seem to have been within the specs shown in the manual, even when new. Also, many have been mis-adjusted over the years, and may have ridiculously high stacks of paper or felt punchings on the action rails. That slight key depression added by reducing key dip may not even move the hammer (i.e., there may be dead play in the action before the cam is even moved).
#30
A few other suggestions on leveling keys and adjusting key dip:
1. Spend some time in the Archives looking at past threads on these topics---it's naturally a topic that has been of interest to many others.

2. Clean the entire action and keybed BEFORE leveling keys or adjusting key dip. On a much used piano, unevenness and other problems can be due just to accumulated crud at critical places in the action and keybed

3. Brush and clean the woven felt cloth strip on which the key ends rest at the back of the keybed before worrying about key dip and leveling.  The thickness of this strip sets the resting position for keys when UP, and therefore the distance for key dip. The key DOWN position is limited by the hammer butts (not by the front rail punchings, as in a normal piano action). Assure that the cloth is level and the thickness you want for key dip, BEFORE going through the careful work of key leveling by adjusting the paper punchings on the action rail. A large key dip. like a large escapement distance, can make the action poor and slow-feeling. To reduce the dip, replace the cloth strip with a thicker one (available in many thicknesses from piano supply houses as "backrail cloth."). This raising of the key ends makes all of the key fronts rest at a slightly lower level, and thereby reduces key dip.
#31
Depends on what the mess is, of course, but it's probably a task not too different from furniture cleaning and restoration, for which there are loads of preparations at the hardware store, ranging from rough stuff like paint strippers to more gentle spirits.  If it's an oily lube that's maybe thickened, become sticky and dirty, it probably hasn't penetrated too far into the wood. I'd clean the surface with one of those citrus goo-off preps if it's thick and tarry, then do a very very light sanding to clean it up.  Test on a small area first, though. Good luck!  Are you sure it's oily lube and not spilled drinks or something? Have you tried water-based cleaning?
#32
See also the record & CD reviews on this very Super Site
http://www.fenderrhodes.com/cgi-bin/records

You don't say what musical styles interest you, but there are quite a few current jazz players who are doing great things with the Rhodes. One of my favorites is Uri Caine, particularly in his sideman role in the Dave Douglas groups.
#33
Sorry, I mis-remembered. It actually says "designed to withstand a drop of 4 feet."
It's still surprising enough that I'd (nearly) remembered it all these years
#34
In the owner's manual from 1975
#35
Amps, Effects & Recording Techniques / Speakers
June 24, 2007, 10:04:51 PM
I obviously don't know what the problem is with your speakers, but the usual speaker problems are blown speaker cones or fried voice coils. I've never heard of a need to replace the permanent magnets.  I'd get your speakers evaluated before investing in replacement or repair.
#36
Sounds like it should be no problem.  How well does the other gear survive your tours? Unless you have a significant accident (drop it off the stage), the only risk to hauling your Rhodes would be to its cosmetics. They used to advertise that a Rhodes can survive a 6-foot drop without problems.
#37
How does your band move its gear? Road crew? Truck? I can't say whether a moving blanket would enough to protect your 88, because it depends on how you move it, and with how much help.  If you have plenty of help, and can carry instead of roll it up and down steps, a blanket might be fine. If you add the weight of a road case, you're up in the range almost of a B3, so you need real moving equipment and strong help.
#38
If you're just talking about moving the Rhodes to gigs via your personal car or truck, and moving it to and from the vehicle on a hand truck, all you need is a quilted moving blanket or other thick blanket.  The blanket lets you slide it into place in the vehicle, and gives you a padded surface to set the piano on its logo side during set-up and break-down.  The Rhodes case itself is plenty sturdy for this kind of transport, and I wouldn't want any other cover that prevented easy access to the handles. The only damage I've had to the Tolex cover is from times I didn't use a blanket to slide it into the car.  Most valuable accessory is a friend to permit 2-person moving and set-up.
#39
Amps, Effects & Recording Techniques / Speakers
June 23, 2007, 04:13:04 AM
Have you considered just getting the old speakers reconed? Older speakers were usually made to be refurbished instead of replaced, and reconing them can be a good value.
#40
O. Lahoz:  It sounds to me like your Rhodes just needs adjustment, as bjammerz says.  Excessive escapement and/or key dip will render the action heavy and poorly responsive.  Once the action is adjusted correctly, I think you will be surprised how different it feels and plays. I would not consider any modification until you optimize the action.
#41
O. Lahoz: Is the action of your 1974 Rhodes heavier than an acoustic piano action? Perhaps you could make a quick measurement by comparing the number of coins (or something else handy) it takes to weight down a key on your Rhodes vs. a piano.
#42
Yes.
The easiest way to see this is to look at a diagram of the Rhodes action (e.g., Figure 2-1 in the online service manual at this site).

A keystrike levers up the hammer via the pedestal/cam contact. The hammer rotation pulls the bridle strap attached to the metal arm of the damper for that note.  More resistance (stiffness) in the damper arm translates into more resistance to key stroke.  That said, the Rhodes action is pretty light when all is in adjustment, and I don't think even very stiff damper arms would affect this much.  In fact, it might even improve the feel by giving you a more substantial spring to play against, to suspend your arms on.

Heavy (not sluggish) actions I think provide more range for a player to work with. The "spring back" in a good acoustic piano action is a positive feature that can be put to good use by the player, and the same is true of the Rhodes.  Once your hands, wrists and arms adjust to the weight and feel of the action, that "spring" is energy that is returned to you on key-UP strokes and helps to propel you, if you connect with the right touch. You need to find just the right hand/wrist weight that suspends you on the keys.  If you play with a heavy touch, and attack instead of join the keyboard, it's irrelevant, though. Once you find the touch and weight, you have available the dynamic range available from the action. This keyboard Zen is something mostly obsessed over by classical acoustic piano players, seeking The Sound, but it really affects how your Rhodes sounds, too. There's a cool dynamic range in that Rhodes, and it depends entirely on your body, not adjustments to the action.
#43
For shims, try to find a material that doesn't compress.  Softwoods like pine will compress slightly over time under the weight of the harp.  Maybe not a lot, but better to avoid the issue. See if you can find hardwood veneer or a composite or synthetic material. Veneers have specified thicknesses, and you can build up a greater thickness by stacking layers.
#44
When you say the action is sluggish, what exactly do you mean?  Is it slow to respond to multiple strikes? Does it feel heavy? Compared to what?  Compared to other Rhodes pianos? Compared to a synthesizer keyboard (unweighted)? Compared to an acoustic piano?  Piano players usually find that a Rhodes action is pretty light, while synthesizer & organ players almost always describe it as heavy and sluggish, unless it's been modified somehow. A lot depends on what you are used to as a player.  The more you reduce the friction on the pedestal felts (with lubricant), the more hammer-bouncing becomes an issue.
#45
Parts, Service, Maintenance & Repairs / No attack
May 31, 2007, 04:11:16 PM
Consult the online Rhodes manual and set the tonebar heights, pickup distances, and other parameters back to the factory standards. Then see the Tech Notes on this website to learn how to adjust escapement, dampers, pickup distance and intonation.  It sounds like you may have moved pickups too far from the tines, or adjusted tone generators too high above the pickups, but could be many things.  The buzzing could have been due to an escapement too small, dampers in need of adjustment, or other issues.
#46
CAE Sound has them. Part 018754. They also have the back feet.
#47
Amps, Effects & Recording Techniques / vibrato
May 22, 2007, 05:14:06 AM
If you search the forum archives with the term "vibrato" you will find quite a few prior discussions of this topic.
#48
Maybe this is a matter of musical styles, but, why don't you ask your band-mates to lower their volumes?  I thought we'd moved on from the days of competing with guitar-players for on-stage volume, once they discovered the control available from mic-ing smaller amps into better PA systems......Sorry, I don't mean to be dense or insulting, but save your ears! Let the mixer do the balancing, not competition between maxed-out amplifiers.
#49
A correction: it's the key ends that rest on the felt cloth strip at the back, but the effect is the same---the felt damps the hammer/key bounce.
#50
Rob,
I have the same action (felts on the hammer butts and bare key pedestals).
I've used dry Teflon powder on the felts for a long time without problems. If you over-lubricate with any method, I think you may find an excess of hammer bouncing. One thing I'd suggest is to clean and fluff (brush) the "backrail" felt cloth strip that the hammers rest on, because this definitely absorbs a lot of the bounce. When I replaced that strip with a thicker one, as an adjustment to my key dip, I found a noticable reduction in hammer bounce, too.