Messages

Hi Stefano,
did you get the leslie 16 in the end? I have one and a proper leslie (from Milan) but I've never tried them on the Rhodes. The leslie 16 sounds great in combination with a second amp/cab. You'll miss all the bass and the high frequencies will be less.

Clip?

The protec clp

Now that I have corrected the key dip, there is clear double striking from Eb4 up to and including C5 correspond to their single damper module.
In Steve' corner (http://www.fenderrhodes.com/service/double-striking.html), he puts the causes of double striking down to escapement, strike line and damper. Seeing as every key on that module is double-striking, it leads me to that being the cause.
Any thoughts on how best to approach this?

Gacki - good point! It's not like it evaporated! However, the pin is definitely not in the rail, nor anywhere easily accessible in the case. I'm obviously bad at this, so I'll buy a new one rather than take the whole thing apart looking for it.

And I'll buy two pins. I will not tolerate atrocity!

Any tips for addressing the overall rust? Here are two panoramic shots:


I've learned from reading the forum that the white dust is a natural outcome from the zinc coating and not a problem.

I really can't thank you (all of you!) enough!

I've been away for a while studying the piano and hope to return to my rhodes restoration in 2023.
Ok, I know you're a little nervous about doing this but it has to be done. All it requires is a bit of muscles:
you have to take the whole piano out of the case.
You will be surprised what you find fallen inside.
Just unscrew the bolts holding the piano onto the case and lift it out. I did it alone (yes, it is heavy) so perhaps ask for another pair of hands. Put it on a solid piano stand and see what you find inside the case.
A case in point: I was at my local vintage gear store. The owner let me look under the hood of 4 rhodes. Immediately, I found screws that had been missing. I myself found a screw that held the legs on my case, not to mention 40 years of dust.
Do it. You might not have to order a thing.

It's just catching. Hold onto it and shift the harp around. If it falls inside, then you'll just have to remove some keys. Is the screw the same as the other two? It looks flat face from the photo.

Yes, on both sides. Yes, I would buy extra screws as it helps with grounding issues and the sympathetic reverberations (I would imagine).
However, I would try removing the whole Rhodes from the tolexed case and see if the sustain dowel is ok. The manual will explain how to remove the bolts securing it. You'll need a strong piano stand or a table close by.

I'm still a novice on the piano so currently rarely play using the sustain pedal. In fact, it wasn't even connected for a period as it got in the way, collected dust, and was another thing to remember to remove/insert during repair work.
Now that it's back on and my piano teacher is pushing me to use it, I noticed that the very light noise interference would disappear once the pedal was fully engaged.
The piano was super silent when I first bought it. I have since brought it back to life by cleaning out all the dust, key dip, key level, and played with the voicing / pickup position. I also bought a Speakeasy suitcase pre amp. I thought the interference was coming from the pre amp, especially since it was so intermittent. However, I now believe it is the piano itself.
There is a lot of interference when the harp is not screwed onto the supports. I assume it is grounding through the screws.
What are all the causes of interference on a rhodes (mine is 1979 MK1)?
Why does engaging the sustain pedal reduce the interference?

Is it simply the case of injecting the clp into the bushings or against the pins?

the fretboard forum has many ways to keep members involved and an excellent 'cooler' system for members getting out of hand. This requires admin work. I hope they get some return, whether in gratitude or connections.

There is also a points system where other members can give you points for wisdom, humour. Some members hang out on off-topic chats I assume where they share points freely. Others, earn their points by contributing. It's a little thing but it also helps to get an idea of a person's character. Any glance at their posts or comments will quickly show if they're members just to sell and buy or if they truly contribute to the sharing of knowledge or not.
I have never met some of the members and have been amazed at their genuine kindness and pleasure to share.

The search engine is not particularly helpful, especially since it requires going through half-finished threads before any meat is reached.

A piece by piece manual on how to set up / repair / build a Fender Rhodes, where each contribution goes to building a complete manual, could be a good idea. Rhodes: the ultimate guide.

As much as the Rhodes manual is good and clear, there is much missing. First thing off the top of my head: grounding issues; if you don't screw the harp back onto the supports, the rhodes isn't grounded.

Yes, I imagine the secret sauces come from experience and maybe repairers and techs don't want to reveal their secrets to the world. Well, the world is changing regarding information. Time, equipment and experience don't. A repairman offers these at premium rate. I have spent so many hours working on my Rhodes and playing with the voicing that the bill if charged for those hours would be more than the Rhodes itself. What's more, service parts are available on the internet to one and all, further encouraging every owner to try their hand. However, I am not a carpenter and do not have woodwork tools. I am not an electrician without spectrum analysers or soldering kits or pickup winding machines. Moreover, I don't have the time. I have other obligations.

I have put my own mish-mash of quotes from the forum to support the Rhodes manual. The Rhodes is a finite instrument with few internal changes and parts over the years. Guitars on the other hand have decades of changes and production modifications, not to mention new parts and accessories.

My last point and I have to be honest here, the real reason why I chose to restore my Rhodes on my own: the thought of carrying it down ten flights of stairs, through my building complex, out to my car, fills me with horror, not to mention the 2 hour drive to get to the nearest repairer.

So, my way to get everyone back here is to not be excluded from writing the definitive manual together.

I think you can see when someone responds to a topic or post by clicking on the little megaphone icon in the top left corner. I believe there is also a way to receive notifications on threads you created by clicking the bell icon as well.

Thank you, spave. I clicked on the megaphone and behold a notification from you on another thread. That's a post/comment notification. I see that the bell icon is for any activity on a thread. Perfect. Thank you, spave.

Everything Spave wrote is spot on advice.

I would further add to the stage (passive) vs suitcase (active) advice by adding that many home players today go directly into their audio interface on their computer and use the virtual amps and pedals (such as on garageband) to get an incredible sound. Suitcases are loud. Pedals and preamps, as well as dedicated Rhodes preamps, abound in today's market. Home amplification can be though monitors. Live amplification can go through pedals and into the P.A. The requirements of the 70s are soon becoming obsolete in the advantages that today's digital and analogue technology offer. And I LOVE amps and cabinets.
I'm glad I went with a stage piano in the end, even if a suitcase is beautiful. Actually, I still plan to find a way to play live and not with headphones. So far, I've got a suitcase preamp with the L/R tremolo. Next step is a stereo amplifier. I already have a 2x12.

I am so glad this forum exists; without it, I would never have attempted any repair work on my Rhodes. Yes, youtube videos are remarkable and make it all look easy; yet, there's nothing like hearing from someone else who's been through the same doubts.

I spend a lot of time on a guitar forum from the UK (thefretboard.co.uk), a very welcoming forum with lots of advice. And all expertly shepherded by the admins. The amount of guitarists far outnumbers the rhodes players, but that isn't its strength. The members remain the members from far back when it was under another name. Members actively participate for sharing advice, gear and support (even off-topic psychological support). Its strength is supported by an easy interactive forum. It means threads (posts) are answered and completed. Much of the threads on this forum never go anywhere. Many of the most active posters were from 2008-2014.
Does the forum need to rethink its interface? Surely, there must be a way to make the posts more dynamic and encourage the amateur players and repairers to participate where the professional repairers have departed.

Am I right in thinking there is no way to directly see the threads that I have started, only the comments I have made?
Other forums permit this easy access with a highlighted star to indicate new comments (known as posts on this forum).

I am a little concerned with the hum apparent with the Normal volume below 80%. It sounds like a ground interference. The manual says 80% is the dry signal volume, so perhaps anything below acts like attenuation. No idea, but it does annoy me a little. Especially so since there's distortion with the lower register. I run the preamp into a headphone amp (https://www.behringer.com/product.html?modelCode=P0184). I thought it might be an unbalanced output from the preamp but it isn't really a noise issue, more a signal distortion.
I'll try it into a sound card when I get the chance and see if the issue persists.

I have tried swapping the valves. The originals are russian made au7A from electro-harmonix. I put in some old unbranded and the change was minimal. Not as bright. A little more smoother perhaps. Nothing extraordinary to write home about.

Hi, I had the same issue with my '79. It turned out I had put it back together wrongly. I did this post elsewhere:

Fortunately, I tried the latter and checked the action rail was properly screwed down without any shims. The key dip is perfect: 3/8 with an extra or minus 1/32 here and there.

This is the 5th time I've taken the Rhodes apart (done in 10 minutes) and I am feeling fairly confident about how I move around the Rhodes now. Enough that I've realised that ALL THE SCREWS on a Rhodes are important. How you set them and how tight they sit is as important for the harp support as it is for the grommets. It's easy to think of a rhodes as a wooden case that contains a keyboard. More attention should be given to how every component is set as there is the right way; all the rest is the wrong way. Let me explain about this particular example:

I had tightened each screw that holds the action rail to the key bed frame. However, if you look underneath, the lip of the action rail sits lower than the key bed frame. If both parts are sitting on a workbench, then resistance in tightening the screws will arrive earlier as you are effectively lifting the key bed frame up off the workbench. I assume this is what I had done which meant that the action rail sat higher than it should. Increasing the height of the action rail increases key dip.
I should also mention that special attention should be given to checking that all the hammers sit as central as they can more or less. My first attempt had them sitting all slightly to one side of the key felt. A tiny shift meant they sat perfectly.
I am starting to think that this piano was made exceptionally well but was put together poorly.

Roland JC 120H

Jenzz

Good try but it doesn't have a stereo input so the speakeasy suitcase tremolo wouldn't work.

Hi :-)

The Dyno filter has a kind of two-way signal path. 'Normal' xixex the unaffected signal to the output.

The other path runs into a fixed mid-cut, then into a passive Fender-style Bass/Treble network. Because of this, the volume can got to 0 when kompletely turned CCW. Anonthe buffer takes the signal to the output mix.

The stereo tremolo might give some impression of pitch shift / vibrato, because the signal source 'moves' in the stereo field.

Jenzz

Hello Jenzz and thank you for your post,

So I imagine the passive tone stack of mid scoop is comparable to a fender twin amp (as opposed to a Baxandall one).
I suspected they're might be a blending of two signals, where CCW on the dyno, the treble and bass would add to the dry signal. As it hits 12 o'clock, the relation becomes more apparent and the volume may need to be lightly adjusted. Full CW, the volume needs to be boosted.
As with other tremolo fx, IME a perceived volume drop occurs the more the intensity is increased.
IIRC, reverb goes before tremolo in traditional fender amp circuits. I would assume this is true for echo or other modulation, with the possible exception of the Roland Jazz chorus amp. Could anyone confirm this?

Has anyone tried swapping the valves? Sometimes I can't resist messing with equipment.

I have just picked up a Speakeasy Vintage Music Suitcase "Vintage Tub" Preamp and I'm really happy. Does anyone know how the Dyno Filter works? All the way counter clockwise, the volume drops slightly and the EQ becomes active, in the sense that EQ at 0 means there's no volume. This means the EQ can bring out the glass or broaden the wooden timbre. As the Dyno filter is turned counter clockwise, it sounds (to my ears) that the mids are being raised and the preamp EQ is dropping.
Could someone tell me how I should be using the Dyno filter and preamp?

The suitcase vibrato is quite different from the tremolo in a Fender Twin. I had always assumed they were one and the same, the only difference being stereo on the suitcase. What Leo Fender had named Vibrato on his amps was actually Tremolo; vibrato has a pitch shift. To my ears, I hear a pitch shift when I turn on the 'suitcase' vibrato as the left and right come into phase. Is this true only to this unit or is it true on recording a true suitcase?

Once I put the Rhodes back together, I saw that it had made zero difference. The hammer was born that way. The good news is it's not broken. However, I'm unsure how to adjust it so that it strikes correctly.

Fortunately, I tried the latter and checked the action rail was properly screwed down without any shims. The key dip is perfect: 3/8 with an extra or minus 1/32 here and there.

This is the 5th time I've taken the Rhodes apart (done in 10 minutes) and I am feeling fairly confident about how I move around the Rhodes now. Enough that I've realised that ALL THE SCREWS on a Rhodes are important. How you set them and how tight they sit is as important for the harp support as it is for the grommets. It's easy to think of a rhodes as a wooden case that contains a keyboard. More attention should be given to how every component is set as there is the right way; all the rest is the wrong way. Let me explain about this particular example:

I had tightened each screw that holds the action rail to the key bed frame. However, if you look underneath, the lip of the action rail sits lower than the key bed frame. If both parts are sitting on a workbench, then resistance in tightening the screws will arrive earlier as you are effectively lifting the key bed frame up off the workbench. I assume this is what I had done which meant that the action rail sat higher than it should. Increasing the height of the action rail increases key dip.
I should also mention that special attention should be given to checking that all the hammers sit as central as they can more or less. My first attempt had them sitting all slightly to one side of the key felt. A tiny shift meant they sat perfectly.
I am starting to think that this piano was made exceptionally well but was put together poorly.

Hi, did you find a fix in the end? I have to decrease my key dip too so I've tried shimming the length of the back rail felt.

So my little experiment of folding up A4 paper to shim under the back rail felt was a little excessive and put the key dip to the minimum of 11/32. Useful to understand how it feels: heavy, tinker-toy-like. Tomorrow I'll try my best to get 3/8s and see how it feels.

Is this an acceptable fix? I can get a metre long 1mm wood shim to do the job a little better. Would it be better to unsteam the felt from the wood, glue the shim down and then lay the felt?

I also wonder if I had failed to screw the action rail firmly down in its seat properly. So I will try that first.

I put the harp back on to see that the work hadn't made any difference at all. I fear this hammer was born this way. It could be the flange doesn't sit perfectly or that the drill wasn't perfectly vertical.
I'll try again but I don't want to screw too tightly and risk damaging the flange assembly.

Jenzz, that was interesting the point you made about the single flange coming from a former 12-piece flange.

The top 6 keys sit highest when it comes to key levelling. Does this suggest another defect elsewhere?

Hi .-)

Keep in mind that the top e hammerflange is not part of a 12-piece hammer flange. To achieve the 73th note, this is a single flange with its own screw. Since this piece is cut from a former 12-piece flange, the securing pins at the bottom are only on one side. This will cause the flange to have a lot of side-play if the screw is not tight.

Jenzz

Just came online to update the exact same information:the securing pin that sits in the trough now sits true. I'd say it's been this way since it left the factory. In fact, the presence of flecks of metal from the original drilling confirm so.
Not perfect by any means but better than before.

Good call, Jenzz! Thank you.

There is a good chance that the hammer flange is broken.

There is a smaller chance that the hammer is simply not seated in the hammer flange.

Thank you, Sean, for your reply. I hope to reopen the Rhodes to find a solution for the key dip so I'll take some photos of the hammer and cross my fingers that it is only sitting badly.

It could also be a simple case of the grey cable from the controls getting stuck underneath the harp support so that all the vibrations pass into the cable. At least that's what I had in a moment of panic.

What is the common cause for a hammer strike very left of the top E on a 1979 73 Rhodes? I'm happy with the strikes on the other keys but it does mean that strike line adjustment is limited.

Shimming the action rail increases the keydip. Use a thicker back rail felt to reduce key dip.

Thank you so much for your reply. You saved me from 'experimenting'.
Where can I find thicker back rail felt? I couldn't see any on your site.
Is there an alternative? Could I bit a shim under the felt where it isn't glued? I checked my photos and I measured 2mm. I see the green felt measures 3mm. Perhaps I need put a wood shim along the length of the backrail and then reapply the felt.
Perhaps some experiments with different shim thicknesses under a small area of felt will help identify the best solution.

Are they so far off center that it is affecting the sound or is it just a visual issue? On a previous thread, some members actually recommend straightening the tonebar itself as apparently they can bend over the years. https://ep-forum.com/smf/index.php?topic=8637

There is also a chance that they were drilled crooked from the factory. Here's an excerpt from Mike Peterson that describes the issue. https://www.fenderrhodes.com/models/mark4.html

One day, while Harold and Steve were inspecting a batch of harps, they observed that all of the tines and tone bars seemed to point in odd directions. After disassembly, they learned that the holes in the Finnish birch plywood had been drilled crooked, really crooked. We wondered how this could happen, so Harold and I got in the car and drove to the Fender plant in Ensenada, Mexico, where the harps were drilled and assembled. (Management had moved production from Fullerton to Mexico, to reduce costs.)

When we arrived, we were horrified to discover a rusty old drill press, wobbling on a uneven dirt floor, protruding through a hole, in a crude, rickety wooden table. The precision drill bushings in the fixture had been replaced with bushings having much larger holes. This made it easier for the operator to hit the target, as he drilled as fast as he could pull the handle.

Thank you for your reply, Spave. So it could have been simply drilled poorly. They're not badly off. They sit to the left of the pickup. I can't distinguish any loss in tone so it could be the perfectionist in me complaining.

Hi there. I'm much in the same boat as you, slowly making my way through renovations and adjustments. While I can't help with this particular problem (mine is fine), it may help if you confirm the status of other important parts, such as key dip, escapement, etc, the fundamentals in setting up a Rhodes. The videos are great for presenting the problems. A status report on all elements might help the pros on here avoid asking the same set of questions again and answer directly. This is something I need to do too.

I've replaced all my grommets and screws and levelled the keys. However, my key dip is 1.1cm, a little too much. How did the extra thick felt turn out? Mine looks to be 1.8cm as it's a little compressed over time.

Having recently replaced all the screws and grommets on my 1979 73 Rhodes MK1, some of the tone bars still sit off-centre. Any thoughts on how to correct this? All screws were originally threaded with wax.

It's an aluminium action rail.
What does shimming the action rail actually do?

Would shimming the action rail be a solution?

Odd that they didn't replace the screws, or at least the bent ones. Tine alignment to the pickup and damper would be the first casualty, not to mention the potential for Tone bars touching.
I just replaced all of mine including the grommets and the difference is clear. Two or three, however, have drill holes that are off. I wonder if there's an excess of wax inside or the wood has damaged, warped. Voicing and tuning are much easier across the board.

1979 Rhodes Mk1 73 renovation.
Key Dip measures 1.1 - 1.25 so beyond the limits (1.035) across the keyboard.
Keyboard is perfectly level except the top 5 notes, which sit a paper shim higher than the rest but nothing drastic.
Escapement is at maximum.

No shims anywhere else apart from balance rail.
Back rail felt cloth is in good condition but thin. I'd say 1.8mm.
Rather than replace the original cloth (which seems quite expensive for what it is), could I not simply shim the entire run where the cloth isn't glued?

I assume this would reduce the key dip. Would this have any impact on escapement?

Not loading on my safari browser too on my iPad.

I tried again through a Google link and this time it loaded.

Not loading on my safari browser too on my iPad.

By chance I discovered Inner Crisis by Larry Willis after hearing him play with Hugh Masaleka. This could be a tricky LP to track down without paying through the nose. Still, it gives me something to look forward to. I was almost running out of new LPs to buy.

I found this on YT Music..
https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mb_zptkjSAXDeseECusiHQ8GYA0i-03nQ

an Album called "Strazzatonic" and it looks it's a 2016 compilation issue combining three albums.. Taurus, Frames and After the Rain

Likely to be a CD or download purchase option via Amazon or elsewhere also if you don't have a streaming account. That YouTube music link should let you play it for free albeit with adverts thrown in. Will give an idea on the tracks it has etc.

Thank you, Cormac, for the youtube link for all the tracks and more importantly for identifying the 3 album CD, which will be on ny next discogs purchase. I already have Cloudburst on a couple of compilations, which pushed me to look for more of his catalogue. A true Jazz Rhodes player.

The quest for other great Jazz Rhodes players continues (other than Herbie, Chick, Joe, etc.), especially those with a foot in Soul Jazz.

Does anyone have the Lp or Cd with some phenomenal Rhodes played by Frank Strazzeri? I'd really like to find a copy without paying silly money.

I'm interested in trying the bass rig from origin effects, which has a speaker emulation on one of the outputs to go directly to an audio interface or a mixer for p.a or headphones.
https://origineffects.com/product/bassrig-64-black-panel/

Hi there,

I'm new to the forum as member but have read alot of threads over the last weeks. It's a wonderful source of information and its great see how people help each other. I'm starting the restoration of my piano but have a couple of questions before ordering parts.

First is about the balance rail felts. I feel like the general level of my keys is a little low. Some tabs of keys come really close to the front of the case. One or two keys even make noise because they hit the front of the case on a heavy blow. The thickness of the balance rail felts seems to be 2mm (0.08inch) and a thad more (plus added shims ofcourse). This already is quite thick I believe. I was able to find 3.2 mm (0.125inch) balance rail felts. Would that be a good idea for this piano? or could anything else be of influence to the keyheight? There is none in the service manual but could anyone share a reference on the keyheight? It would be nice to have an idea of how high the keys should be because it seems like on mine it's nowhere close to where it should be. 

Second is about the frontrail felts. Since the key level is quite low, the bottom of the keys should also be lower. Therefore you would expect that the bottom of the key would come close or would even touch the front rail felts. The opposite is happening however. When a key is pressed down really hard (Bending the key even) it still will not touch the frontrail felt. The tab on the key top will even hit the front of the case first before the key will touch the frontrail felt. Even when the tab of a key hits the front of the case, there is still a distance between the bottom of the key and the felt. If I heighten the key (to bring it to a normal level), this distance will become even greater. I know the key should not hit the front rail felt and the felt is only there for protection during a heavy blow but what is the idea behind a felt that the key will never be able to reach? The front rail felt is 5mm (0.2 inch). The keydip on this piano is around 11-12mm, a little to big I think.

Maybe I am way to precise but it looks like I am missing something because this seems to be unlogical.

Boye

Hi Boye,
I too am new and going through the same steps as you with my recently acquired 1979 73 Rhodes. Perhaps my limited experience might help (2 weeks):
I just finished taking the rhodes down to its bones to discover that after a good vacuum, which helped spruce up the felt on the key bed, there were some paper key shims underneath the Harp support that were throwing the escapement out. The rejuvenated keybed felt returned the key dip to its proper measurement along the whole of the keyboard. The white felt on the balance rail were missing on some keys. I will order replacements and paper washers so to level the keys. From what I understand, the front rail felts are to be left alone (I have a long green felt instead). The parts to worry about are the key bed and the balance rail. With the harp Support removed, you can see whether the hammer is sitting properly on the key pedestal and moves into the locked position when the key is pressed. In fact, you should indicate if your rhodes has the key bump mod or not.
Anything else beyond this should perhaps be avoided for the time being; until the keys and the key beds are all in the right state, and they all interact correctly with the hammers, any work on the harp or dampners will go nowhere. Still, I couldn't resist and I learnt that I will have to reset anything anyway, especially as I need a whole new set of grommets and screws.
I know this doesn't really answer your questions but I hope it will help emphasise the importance of getting these fundamental steps fixed. And at the very least, you'll have someone to bounce off.

Hi .-)

Due to dry-out, the wood of the case will bend towards the keys. This is more likely in the middle.

Jenzz

Thank you, Jenzz. I'm enjoying examining every part of my new Mk1 '79 73 stage rhodes and understanding its state and purpose, however insignificant.

Or could this indicate that there are keydip issues to be investigated? Yes, the keydip is extended on low and high keys.

Returning to the original question for key dip, is it fundamental that the back rail cloth/felt is level and in good condition? Naturally, this would mean that the keybed is level too. If there are any inconsistencies in the keybed, would shims or thicker felt be required? I noticed that ep services sells 10cm lengths in varying thicknesses (1.5mm, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6).
Does that mean that Key Dip is ONLY corrected by ensuring the correct height of of the Back rail cloth/felt, which in turn produces the correct escapement?
I ask since the escapement in the centre keys on my Rhodes Mk1 73 '79 is good, where the key dip is good too. Escapement on the bass notes is extended as is the key dip.
Therefore, should I check the wood on the keybed is level? If not level, should I sand it down or build it up with shims and then add a new thick felt? Or should I ignore wood and shims and instead apply different felt thicknesses?

I had no luck getting a driver from my local stores as the sizes are 6 or 7 mm, not 1/4 inch. Instead I found a drill point that fit and took that to the shop to find a similar driver. The assistant pointed out that it wasn't a driver tip but rather the holder for different screw tips. She sold me a handle that I could use instead of my electric drill.
Once I got home I looked at the female hexagon on the handle and tried it on the pickup screw directly without the drill tip. It fits exactly!
So if you need a driver for your pickups in Europe, use a tip holder (forgive me for not knowing the technical names of these tools; I am a guitarist after all).