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Just a follow up question. You know the three strips of rubber pad that sit along the top of the shield, are these meant to compress between the lid and shield somewhat? Or are they not meant to be in contact with the lid? I thought they were to stop the plastic case resonating so needed a contact point? This would mean I wouldn't want the bolts sitting too high.

As someone who has in the last few weeks upgraded to a Warneck in my 200, I have to say it sounds like a pillow has been removed from the speakers. Mines an early 200 with an early if not earliest amp. It was hissy past 65% despite replacing a few components. My friends 200A had clarity and quiet all day, but his was probably 10 years after mine.

I did need to upgrade the shielding of AC cables as directed by Tim Warneck, I believe up to the later 200A standards. I'm really pleased with the tone.

That confirms my thoughts guys, just having them pertrude sufficiently clear of the shield. I don't think I need any washers up top as I can adjust the nuts on the bolts to sit lower down the threads thus raising the bolt heads higher on tightening

The bolts the are drilled out to
Accept the music rack screws. How far should they pertrude pas thevreed bar shield?

On mine the bolt heads pertrude through the reed bar shield holes but no more. I noticed that with a keyboard on top the case was interfering with the action. I'm presumed the bolts meet to clear the reedbar shield sufficiently to avoid compressing the reedbar shield when the case is tightened down, more so with a keyboard on top.

I always set my reedbar shield with a sustain pedal so that depressed it sets the clearance of the shield by pushing the dampers up to full height before tightening it down.

Got my reply from Tim, and I'm sure he won't mind if I post it here incase other people have an LED fitted prior to purchasing his amp.

'Hi Gary,

Simply solder the LED leads into the pads marked VARIVIB (OPT).  RED is +28VDC, and BLK is GROUND.  The LED must have a resistor in series with it- it hopefully already does.

This tap is protected through a self resetting fuse such that if it gets shorted for some reason it doesn't take down the whole piano.  This is much better than going direct to the power supply caps.

I don't know what voltage your LED was originally set up for, so if it isn't bright enough or too bright, you may need to change the resistor that is (hopefully) in series with it.

Any other questions, please let us know.

Best,
Tim'

Hi guys.

I have emailed Tim but thought I'd throw it out here whilst I wait.

I have the VV led mod on my 200 tapped off at the 50v capacitor as suggested. However now I'm installing Warneck 200 board there is no dedicated led feed as it's assuming your still using neon off mains.

Now there is s 63v cap in the place where the old one would be, albeit laid flat on old board. So would I be correct in thinking just tap it off at that 63v cap and alter resistor value on back of led which is configured for the far right 50v cap on old board?

When they switch to wood core, how do you voice them? They are so mechanically noisy it's hard to listen to. Headphones?

Do you switch to fundamental voicing, and do you taper the volume or match it to the rest of Piano?

I could do that Steve, I currently have all my tine bars set at 3/8. How far beyond the 3/8 is practical?

I'm even tempted actually to pull out the hammer comb an octave up and drop that in to see if it is bridle issue. I have spare felts and for the purpose of the test would not matter if I was striking them with wood core tips.

I have added more torsion but go too crazy and the damper rail actually fouls the back of the damper arm where the curve is more acute. I'm not sure if dampers can just wear out over time and constant manipulation. They certainly don't have the torsion of the lower octave damper module but then again they shouldn't with the cut away being longer? They have more vibration when just plucking them with the finger.

Really could do with Vintage Vibe releasing those long awaited damper modules....

The damper felt doesn't vibrate unless it's something only a high speed camera could see. I can't see it being the bridle straps, I prestretched them and used the guide on the hammer to set the length. Should I try increasing the tension of the bridle strap?

Literally brand new, VV brand. Tried tightening tine block to tonebar but no difference. Truly bizarre given notes below and above those mentioned are fine. Damper felts all at the same height, even applied extra torsion at the base but it seems related to the front (damper felt) end. Literally nothing else i can try aside from different felt manufacturer.







I see no reason why those 4 shouldn't dampen as well as the others

Having real trouble with damping the last 4 notes in the mid damper section. E5 to G5. The damper arms at that point becomes cut away more, so less stiff whilst still retaining the mid dampers until G# where they become treble dampers.

I have straightened all of the damper arms in that module. Even adjusted once torqued at the base after mounting. New bridle straps, damper felts, grommets. All I can do now is tighten the reed up in the tonebar, maybe add a bass spring or a second lighter spring to the mid springs fitted.

Bridle straps are new, not tight at rest with similar slack too rest of the piano.

I do notice slight resonance when I have my finger on the front (closest to keys) when it's struck, that isn't there in the Eb next to it.

It's almost like I still need the stiffer damper arms in the mid to run another four notes.

What do you guys think?

I have notes that don't fully dampen (slight ring) from 49-53. I tried adjusting but if I push the damper closer to the tine I just get a delayed pull away of the damper felt upon key depress. So I pulled the damper module out seeing as it falls nicely at the start of the problem notes, I then spend a fair bit of time getting the module flat. However once I have achieved really nice flatness of the module, when I install it again, the damper felts are way lower than the rest of the piano which has no issues. So I then bend them up but get the same problem with delayed pull away of the damper. Really frustrating!

Any ideas? I have a new set of bridal straps but to be honest they don't look stretched as they don't look loose if I hook them on the little plastic stump on the hammer which sets length when installing them.

My 200 is date stamped 1968. Never been unhappy with the sound, until....I had my friends 200A at mine for a while. Apart from volume output being greater, the clarity and definition in tone is far better on his 200A. Are any of the 200 amp upgrades able to give a 200A definition? I'm presuming my 200 amp is possibly the first revision and I believe it was quite refined over the years. But, wow it's like a blanket over mine in comparison. Mind you, is it also the speaker change? Even if I got a modern amp, would the speakers also need to be changed?

I'm talking about the main shield that encompasses the entire reed bar /damper assembly. It wasn't my hand as after I had bent the shield back (it was screwed down at the front at the time) the notes were fine, even after I removed my hand.

I'm not for keeping secrets, it's incredibly petty. I have made videos of my maintenance for YouTube, if I find anything I tell people. I'm not a piano technician but neither am I an idiot who is unable to learn how to maintain my equipment. I'm tired of over priced monopolising by firms. I had in the past paid a large amount of money to have repairs done by so called reputable companies only to find out they hadn't done much at all. I'm all for sharing as much information as possible with fellow owners who want to take the time to repair their own gear.

So last year I was trouble shooting some short sustaining notes and not really getting anywhere with shim adjustment on the reed bars. I knew it was a resonance issue but I never really did fully sort it.

So I'm doing lubrication work on my friends 200a, and having stripped all of the piano out became confident in tackling repairs, something I wasn't confident about doing last year so never got at a full strip out.

Anyway, I thought, hang on this is better than mine now! So whilst in the confident vein of getting under the hood, decided I would lube a few bits and bobs in mine.

I still have short sustain notes, until, by chance, I happen to be messing around with playing the short sustain notes, and pulled back on the reed bar shield, and all of a sudden the damn notes start giving good sustain. So the reed bar shield is obviously having an impact on the resonant frequencies. I pulled back on the shield and now the notes are good. When the shields off the piano seems to suffer
from resonance issues.

The damper assembly is off at the moment so it wasn't the fact the reed bar shield was too low that it was blocking the damper arms

Some pianos seem to suffer more than others but resonance is certainly quite an issue with Wurlitzers.

I eased the few keys initially as my first procedure. They all flop nicely with the action removed and the drop test from the front lip of the key.

The jacks all appear fine as they all fall back into rest position under a slow strike. Looking closely at the tip of the jack, the plastic coating (I presume) that makes contact with the felts under the hammer. A lot of them appeared quite scarred. Applying graphite solved the issue.



I got it reassembled last night. Only for the whole thing to distort! Now I was extremely careful in removing the amp rail. I was going to blast the reed bar with air as it has been out in the open during this process. However, I awoke this morning and had another quick peek. I traced the issue to the little preamp board that sits between the reed bars. Anyway, I reseated it, and that's cured it.

Do any of you guys know why that may have happened? Is there supposed to be any isolating grommets under that board? I'll have have a closer look today to find out exactly why that caused distortion, as I don't want it happening again.

I think I will do both. Use the mixture and graphite the fly tip.

I found some helpful information here at a piano tech forum.

http://my.ptg.org/communities/community-home/digestviewer/viewthread?GroupId=43&MID=639109

In the UK we call denatured alcohol, methylated spirits, hence enquiring as to what denatured was.

Ok, just swapped a hammer from next door which had no issue assembled, and the stiffness is still there so it's down to the whip assemblies. Next test, graphite application to fly!

RESULT! Applying graphite to the fly tip has solved the issue!

Yeah, I have no history of the piano, it's cosmetically really nice. But the fact all the action has the same squeakiness on travel I guess means it's been subject to a not ideal environment.

I haven't tried what you have suggested but will certainly give it a go. Individually the whip or the hammer pulled gave no indication of stiffness. It's only when installed does it appear.

I have had it my house for a couple of months and it's not humid in my room, so I would assume any drying has taken place.

What do you mean by denatured Steve? Isopropyl? And do you have s ratio for the mixture?

I have stripped the action out. Lubricated with Protek the whip assembly action points as dictated in the maintenance section in the manual, as well as the hammer. Yet still I have an issue with resistance. It's not the keys as it is there when key removed and manually manipulating the hammer from the point of the key pushing up. I'll take the action out and put it on a keyboard stand and see if I can actually locate the point of resistance by listening. It's not there when the hammer is removed, but seems the weight of the hammer is enough to cause it.

However, can any of you guys offer any possible point at which I'm missing that could be the issue.

When I was lubricating I rocked all the pivot points on the whip and hammer and no noise it resistance that would cause noise.

Forget it, I had a left side screw in instead of the bigger thread right.

Such an oaf.

And finally can you believe that whole sustain problem was solved when I put the shield back on. All this time I was trying to fix a problem that resolved when I got fed up and put it back together. I guess the extra mass of the reed bar shield solved it.

But, at least it forced me to go into it, and I can do repairs I was frightened to do before.

Tuning, voicing, key felt replacing etc. It can only be a good thing.

I can't seem to tighten the bolt down on the right side of the bass reed bar. The ones where they go into a metal clip. I seem to have damaged it. Does anybody know where I can get a replacement? I guess I could use a nut.

One of my whips is sitting slightly off centre on the key felt and the corresponding fly the same on the capstan above. Tried loosening the whip and centring but upon tightening reverts back to offset position. Is there anything I can do, or indeed need to do?

Hmm, the way I am reading it is under the 'Preperation Of The Piano For Servicing'

4. 'Remove the two screws at each end of the chassis that secures it to the mounting blocks. (Note Tbe screw located on the left and side and towards the action bracket is larger than the other screws and has a washer located underneath the chassis)'

I have a larger screw top left on the amp rail that tightens down on to the bracket. That's surely what it is referencing. No washer though

Just reading the service manual and I note that it stipulates a washer is located top left of the amp rail that sits under the amp rail. I notice it's missing on mine. Can anyone confirm the type of washer (steel?) sandwiched by the bracket and amp rail top left as mentioned in the manual. It may have something to do with my resonance issue.

Thanks for the input guys.

I am as you can gather, spending time doing work on my EP200. Work which I shouldn't have to do after paying £700 to a specialist in the UK four years ago to bring it up to spec. I'll be honest, I felt robbed afterwards. I was never given a list of what exactly had been done. More fool me, but you try and trust people in this life don't you.

Anyway, one of the adjustments made was that the bass register from bottom E to E two octaves up, has had it's let off set to 1/16" It then switches to 1/8"

Surely having it this close is a no no?

(Just messaged you on EBay Steve re postal cost for your let off wrench)

I also have two keys in the bass which are returning slightly sluggish on slow press, resulting in the key not fully returning to rest and the fly not resetting so if I go to play a repeat note softly, it doesn't sound.

I am having lots of fun learning how to repair my EP200. It gives great satisfaction that's for sure.

Ok, I have found the issue and it is mass related

http://youtu.be/I_3aKqe0WkI

I am wondering if there is an issue with the bolts going through the pickup shield and through the puck up. Weight on those bolts corrects the issues. I'd like to get under there and see if I can correct it without adding weight. If I take out the bolts will the pickup remain in the same position?

Yes, I loosened the bolts off and pulled the right hand side towards the front as far as possible which has made a difference to the F21 in tone. If I pushed it back it was fouling the hammers. Leave the left side bolts in situ loose. As Steve pointed out, there is small adjustments to be allowed on the right hand side with those clips that the screw goes into.

I look at it from a point of view of it being like a plastic ruler on the edge of a table. The less mass protruding over the edge the less vibration time upon bending and letting go. It's 12am here, so tomorrow is another day! I'll keep you informed of my findings. You might try pulling the right side towards the front and see what you get. Everything is so subtle in adjustments it's crazy!

I'm not moving the strike point as I'm not prepared to drill new holes or widen the existing ones. I did it to my Rhodes with great results in tone but I don't believe it's a strike point issue either given I have swapped with good sounding notes next door to no avail.

Ok, I am done with shims, it's not the answer. I do however think the answer is adding mass to the reed bar. I say this because just placing a screwdriver on one of the reed bar shield bolts on top causes dull notes to switch back on with sustain. And I'm only resting it on.

I also came across this from somebody who posted on the Yahoo Wurlitzer Board


> I seem to remember that, on some pianos, you had to add mass to the
> tone
> bar in some reed locations to cause the reed to sound properly. It's
> been quite a while but I've used washers or anything I could scrounge
> up
> to make things work.
> Without the extra mass some notes would sound dead or dull. Won't hurt
> a
> thing to remove the extra metal and listen to it - the metal might
> change over the years...


Shimming is only pushing the dull notes around, so I'm now convinced this isn't the way. So I'll go that approach tomorrow.

Well, I thought I had it beat. Slackened off a reed bar screw which fixed the notes B27 downover, only for it to transfer the issue to middle C. No matter what i do, i can cure the short ringing on one or two next to each other, only for it to then transfer a bit further away. Incredibly frustrating. I wonder if its the bolts/plastic washer issue. I note the bolts are elongated on the right two of the reed bar and different to the left two. Is this standard? Also there is two metal clips with holes with threads on the right two holes in the support bracket

I just don't know where to go from here. Like i say, i can fix the short rings but not without introducing it to previously unaffected notes.

Thats why i was convinced i had it, i hadnt checked above B27 as i had had no issue there.

Here's another video

http://youtu.be/haJD8LBa3tI

It's 12.40am and I'm just getting to bed. It's fixed. I ended up taking all the damper arms off one by one, numbered of course. It was a breeze then to remove reed bar and coax cable. I am so happy I managed to do it. I will sleep well tonight. I'll do another video. It may help other DIY'ers in the future.

Thanks for the assistance, it's a great friendly forum here.

Goodnight all!

I have solved the issue,but to do it i need to get a paper punching/shim under the top right screw of the bass reed bar. which is a pain because i can't get to it. Im going to have to disassemble the piano aren't I?

Ok, i managed to get the lower left bolt off without cutting a slot into the head. Sure enough, when i slackened it off the sustain returned. So its a case of packing paper punches to alleviate the issue.

I'm just in the process of cutting a slot in that lower left screw on the reed bar to get a driver on it and see if it's that one causing an issue of pulling the reed bar out slightly. It may have been torqued up using a powered drill. If hand tightening doesn't resolve it, I'll head back down to the amp rail and try some rubber washers

Right!!!! Good news!

Leaving aside the F20 key for a second.

I had short sustain on a couple of notes as I mentioned earlier just up from 20, at 27-28.

I had noticed that releasing the torque on the upper right screw of the bass harp brought sustain back to the B27.

It mentions in the manual that short ring notes can be alleviated by placing paper punches under the reed harp in that area. But I was not prepared to strip the piano down to alleviate a couple of notes having never done it before.

However.....

I had the amp rail removed today, and by chance I played the notes, and would you believe the sustain is great on those notes mentioned.

It seems the weight of the amp rail and/or tightening of the screw I believe to be top left where it actually goes through the rail into the harp support bracket is somehow affecting sustain. If I take of the torque or better still lift up the rail off that bracket, it plays great.

Have you guys noticed this before. It may be that the lower left screw that bolts the bass reed bar to the frame is too tight, and I just need to get that loose. Like I say, it's badly worn and it's going to take a little effort.

The amp rail pushing down on the lower left bracket is the issue here. Or it may just need that screw

loosening off to alleviate the twist.

How should I approach it?

Here is two videos I have taken.

Broke my little finger Xmas eve so it's become a bit more difficult to work on!

http://youtu.be/RubwQXnLm7Q

http://youtu.be/GNWhoOvI3gs

Yes, the metal washers are situated between top plastic bush and screw head.

Getting back to that F21. I checked the hammer against G23 and its uniform in angle. I swapped them, but still, not fixed. So, out of curiosity, i have a bag of old reeds that came with my 200. I managed to find an E20. I dropped that in and it sounded much better although needed to be trimmed. I noticed that the F21 reed is thicker than the E20. I measured them both with digital calipers. I thought i may have different reed designs in my bag but am not sure.

Thank you for comments so far.

Ah ok, so the paper shims go under the reed bar. Trouble is, i dont think i can get the reed bar off. The bottom left screw is quite worn and i can't remove it yet. As the fix seems to be half a turn off the upper right screw, do you guys think i can lift it slightly to slide a shim under that side with out the need for removing lower left screw?

Well, i worked too late into the night last night. Was working on a reed with the iron, and the whole pyramid fell off into my lap, so need to build that up again!

As a side note, i had a low sustain on B27. Changed reeds, same. So, i slackened off a reed bar screw to the right and the sustain returned. But, G23 then went short until i tightened it. The bottom left reed bar screw is torqued up so tight i couldn't loosen it. Need a bigger driver. I'm hoping i can find the solution there. All other notes sustain fine.

As for packing with front rail paper punchings, i presume they just sit between the plastic bush and metal washer of the reed bar screw? It says to place under the reed bar, but im not entirely sure at which point. If its just to tighten up again after being unscrewed half a turn, i presume they just sit under the washer of the reed bar screw.

Im intending to finish this before I go away on the 24th. Tuning it along the way also. I will let you know how much success I have.

Is it worth adjusting the hammer to achieve a different strike point to see if it makes a difference? And should it be pushed forwards or back over at the adhesion point that requires heating?

Its actually a good 200, plays really nice, just this niggle to iron out, and then im going to gig with it. Keeping the dream alive.

It is during amplification. I have swapped reeds, hammers, and still left with a metal resonating type clang. I have clear air either side of the reed, sustain on the note. What is hard to ascertain is how much of that is projecting out of the speaker and how much is noise from the actual mechanism.

I have just read a thread noting issue with key number 21 (F) albeit on an earlier 100 series, and im having an issue in that i cannot get it sounding good. Is there some issue with the changeover point on the pick up rail from bass pick up to mid pick up E20 -F21 that can cause issues?

Hi,

I'd like to have the true effects loop on my Rhodes. What type of Switchcraft socket do I need? There's loads on the website! VV video stipulated closed type but I'm not sure which I need as the Switchcraft terminology goes beyond that.

Thanks

Got one.

Steveo, that's exactly what I'm trying to say. RealMC, I re-read your post, but you seem to refer to external amplification and its affect on accentuating or diminishing certain frequencies. I am only using my Rhodes into my DAW via a Focusrite preamp to match the level across the board. I'm obviously not able to understand your point.

I think you may have misinterpreted what I was saying.

I am not actually using any output speakers aside from a pair of headphones. This is purely using a strobe tuner. What I'm saying is that I set the bass register as close as I can without pitch going sharp. I will make a note of the peak indicator on the graphic VU at that stage on my Focusrite soundcard, and then match the mid/upper peaks to the peak of the bass. Everything is purely DI'd for level matching using graphical VU.

As the bass register is so prone to pitch shifting under proximity, do you guys use EQ and more fundamental voicing to maximise the output in the bass, which then allows you to push the mid/upper pickup/tine distance closer for a harder sound whilst maintains a level gain across the keyboard?

I am at the end of the road in sorting my 1977 Mk1 Stage. Its taken months of an hour or so a day!

In relation to pickup distance to tine. I find I can only go so far in on the bass before it starts pitching sharp under sustain. This then dictates the level to match up the rest of the keyboard.

I realise this is due to magnetic pull in the same way as guitar pickups/strings.

Some people may use the bass sector in a very staccato way and may not see the pitch going sharp under sustain, but would you guys agree that the gain by tine/pickup distance is set by how close you can get the bass end without it pulling sharp?

Thanks guys for your input.

I'm adjusting the volume on my Rhodes. However I was wondering about the tines in the upper range. By this I mean the straight tonebars past the second harp brace. Should I set upper tine volume the same as the rest or have it lower?

Got a quick query.

I have a 77 Mk1 Stage that I always found slightly lifeless in tone. As well as lowering the shims by roughly 1/32, I did the strike line adjustment instructed in the manual. That is, leave the upper right side screw in loose and move the harp around by manipulating the lower left corner.

Anyway, BANG! the tone came alive after I moved it towards the keyboard by about an 1/8 of an inch. Much clearer and I'm happy!

Because I have moved the left side down towards the keyboard by 1/8 of an inch, should I then square up the harp on the other side so that the harp is the same distance from the ends of the harp supports. Otherwise the left is 1/8 down.

I'm surprised because it has the original factory holes. Maybe by 77 the production quality control wasn't as great as it should have been!