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These measurements were taken from a VV bump


Here's a SketchUp model I made.
MiracleModBump.skp

I can offer these before-and-after images of a 1974 I worked on.


Looks like six screws. Three across the front and three across the back.

The cabinet sides are connected to each other with lap joints which are glued. The top is glued and stapled to the sides.
Here is an exploded view of a cabinet bottom that hopefully illustrates this.


I've modeled several cabinet parts in SketcUp.
http://www.shadetreekeys.com/ShopChart/items.php?description_filter=cabinet&models=1
Here's a 1973 Mark I cabinet top
http://www.shadetreekeys.com/32766/Models/UpperSplitSideCabinetHalf32766.skp

Thanks. Sounds like you got a heck of a deal there.

Congratulations.

How does it handle the extreme treble and bass notes? That's where most tuners I've tried start to lose track, especially on the last treble octave.

Incredible find.  I've seen pictures of an unknown piano player with Harold at a showcase in Europe, and they were at this grand piano shell Rhodes.  It's not exactly similar (didn't have red knobs in the photo) but it's the same "Don Pallas" cabinet maker.  Could be the same piano?  Highly unique and definitely factory

Ohhh. I saw "Chickering" but forgot this was an old thread. I'm no expert on acoustic pianos but I did think it looked strange for a baby grand.

How did they make a Seventy Three fill the width of the keybed? I guess the cheek blocks look a little fatter than normal, maybe that's all it took.

I wish they'd taken a picture of it closed up.

So getting a new 'case screw' wouldn't do the job?

The "case screw" is the one that threads into the aluminum harp support. I don't see #1 in that screenshot but really, a #8-15 x 1-1/2" Phillips oval head wood screw would be readily available at a hardware store. I just checked Vintage Vibe's site and I don't think I'm able to find a #1 screw listed.

The screw in the upper-right corner of that screenshot would be #1 in the diagram. Though they don't list the actual size and I can't figure out what a "Mark II baffle" might be. Regardless, there's only one wood screw of that size that pairs with a finish washer on a Mark II and it's #1 in the diagram.

#2 is the 1/4-20 oval head with a machine thread. Both these screws and the finish washers should be commonly available at the hardware store. You won't be able to find nickel-plated but if you get stainless steel and polish them, they look remarkably similar.

edit I misunderstood the image. That's the 1/4-20 in the upper-right and the Baffle screw is off the screen. I thought I saw a point at the end of the screw.

The large screws that thread into the aluminum harp support are 1/4-20 x 2" Phillips oval head machine.
The smaller screws that go into the cheek block support are #8-15 x 1-1/2" Phillips oval head wood.

http://ep-forum.com/smf/index.php?topic=9351.0

These days, we have found that grinding the side of the tone bar is quick and very effective without any adverse effects.

Do you do anything to protect the metal where you've ground away the plating?

I'm always on the lookout for ways to protect metal when re-plating is not practical.

Though english/american is not my language I would rather avoid it

Um... what's the Dutch word for Rhodes?

5mm is a huge amount to raise the harp.

I have to agree. 5mm is pretty darned thick for a shim. I've got to believe you sacrificed significant dynamic range and touch sensitivity up there by jacking up the harp so much.

If it makes the piano do what you like, then go with it. Just keep in mind if you're ever wondering why notes fail to sound when you're trying to play lightly that the escapement is probably way out of spec. up there.

I normally set things up so that the wood-core hammer tips only barely fall away after striking the tine - i.e. so that the escapement is as tight as possible up there.

Since Rhodes is a last name that ends in an S, it is properly made plural by adding "es."

What are the singular and plural forms of The United States? (I went looking for plurale tantum proper nouns and that's the only example I could find.)

End of grammar lesson...  ;-)

By all means, keep going. I love this stuff.

Until I hear otherwise, I'm declaring "Rhodes" to be plurale tantum.

Also, Plurale Tantum is going to be the name of my next band.

So my answer would be "Rhodes pianos."

That's what I've been doing so far but I'm getting tired of it. Bugs me to add an unnecessary word just because I can't figure out how to leave it out.

It's a real pain avoiding the plural form of "Rhodes" but I can't figure out how to do it.

Rhodeses? Or is it a self-pluralized word like "sheep"? (Apparently those are called plurale tantum words.)

Rhodes do make a relatively weak signal but any standard guitar amplifier from a practice amp to a Marshall stack should be able to make a reasonable sound.

As suggested, check the RCA jack at the rear of the harp. The signal is ready to go directly into an amplifier from that point so if you have an RCA-to-1/4" adapter, you can test from there. The controls on the name rail are passive, the same as on an electric guitar. All they do is remove volume and/or treble. Some folks bypass them altogether and control volume and tone at the amplifier.

So, if you get a good signal from the RCA, you know your name rail controls are the problem. If not, you at least know where to start your investigation.. and the jack itself should probably be Suspect #1.

That would be a wooden-key.

If we're being specific, it actually depends on the model.

Wooden-key Stage: 44-3/4" x 14-3/4" x 22-1/2"
Plastic-key Stage: 44-3/4" x 13-1/2" x 22-1/2"

I think a Suitcase top matches the dimensions of the Plastic-key Stage but I've never measured one. I don't know the dimensions of the Suitcase amplifier.

Here are models of some cabinets I've made.
http://www.shadetreekeys.com/ShopChart/items.php?models=1&description_filter=cabinet

This is one sweet Rhodes, right?

Considering the likely costs involved combined with the hassles of moving a commodity across international boundaries.. are you sure there isn't anything comparable available domestically? Even if your contact in Mexico City is giving the piano away, I'd still think twice about something like this.

1. Small-time shipping contractors are notoriously unreliable. It's an industry that for some reason is rife with scammers. I found one such scammer and almost lost a piano I'd already paid for. Had to hustle and pay a bunch more than I planned to recover the unit.

2. There are a bunch more Rhodes in the States than there are in Mexico (that's a guess but I'll bet it's true). At the risk of bringing morality into the discussion, I'll just say that I like the idea of these pianos being distributed across the globe and that it's a bit of a shame that one would be recalled from a region where they're already pretty scarce. It probably took a lot of work to get that piano down there. Seems a waste to bring it back. But I generally hate it when people try to impose their values onto someone else's vintage instrument so that's the last you'll hear from me on this subject. If you want that piano, go get it.

I want a tuner that responds fast enough so that I can tune the bass notes either for the moment of the strike or allowing them to ring out a bit. Each way has advantages, but I'd like a tuner that allows me to do either well.  That argues for a strobe, since I understand the needle ones typically respond more slowly.

I don't know how its response time stacks up to other tuners but that FMIT program can display a 'pitch history' graph that will show how the pitch changes over time. Plus, I like the way the primary tuning view shades the background behind the needle as it swings back and forth in response to an unstable note. Makes finding the average easy.

However, the Rhodes piano does not have inharmonicity.

This is my understanding as well. Since the tines vibrate in a single arc - i.e., there are no nodes - there is nothing to introduce inharmonicity. Also, there's this study that Rob A did.
http://ep-forum.com/smf/index.php?topic=4580.msg22261#msg22261

Cormac
Instead of a photo only a no-enter-sign (if that's the right english word) shows up.

Same for me.

Oh, the irony.

By not notifying the users, it kept them from migrating to a different site by locking down their photos.

Do you not even have access to the photos yourself?

I agree the lack of notice was almost certainly a ploy to get people to pay up. There are likely many business that relied on that service who would have to pay to keep their e-commerce sites running.

Now that I think about it, why don't you start hosting your images on the web server where retrorentals.net lives? All of the links would be to your domain name so even if you have to move them to a new host, as long as you keep your domain, the links will continue to work.

The Stroboflip seems to be discontinued, but seems similar to the Strobo Plus HD I've been looking at. Why did you abandon yours to move on to a software tuner?

Almost every tuner I've tried has struggled to provide meaningful information about the entire range of a Seventy Three. Particularly in the treble, they all have trouble locking onto the fundamental pitch. After using the Strobo-Flip for a while, I wanted to see if anything else could do better. The computer in my shop is wired into the amplification system so using software tuners is actually easier than hooking up stand-alone units. Plus, the big monitor display is nicer to look at than a handheld device.


(That's actually just an oscilloscope program, not the tuner I currently use)

In addition to all that, the tuner I use now provides other information I really like. I've used its waveform display to inform my voicing process and I use its volume graph to help me equalize the pickup placement. It's got lots of other stuff that I haven't explored including an overtone graph.

http://gillesdegottex.github.io/fmit/

What's funny is, I can't write the name of the software or the forum will reject my post, presumably because it looks like spam.

Betcha Cormac could run something that would find all of your photobucket links and update them in one pass.

You might want to think twice about using another free image hosting service.

Seems like photobucket played this poorly - why no notice to the users? Why such a steep price? - but really, if they go bankrupt providing free hosting, all of those images would disappear anyway.

I used a Peterson Strobo-Flip (my most popular video!) tuner for a while but quickly switched to an electronic tuner.

http://ep-forum.com/smf/index.php?topic=6878.msg34556#msg34556

I think sean's analysis of the difference between mechanical and electronic strobe tuners is correct. The electronic versions don't provide any visibility of the overtones.

My standing question to sean is: What would you do with that information? What does anyone do with that information? Does it inform your stretch tuning procedure? Would you replace a tine if the overtones don't look right?

I agree that displaying the overtone bands on the display of an electronic strobe tuner could be considered misleading. Why are they there if they're meaningless?

Friend of mine runs a hosting operation... $20 would get you a year of storage space.

Just throwin' that out there.

Bummer dude. Funny I didn't read about it on BoingBoing or Consumerist. Kept my nose to the grindstone today, I guess.

Fatigued damper arms is not something I've ever seen.

To me it seems like you're overthinking things. Do you have any pictures of the situation?

Don't spend too much effort trying to get the felts to hit parallel to the tines. You certainly want more contact than just the leading edge but absolutely parallel is unnecessary.

It could very well be your arms are way out of whack. Several pianos that have come through my shop had arms that a previous owner had bent way out of shape trying to compensate for other structural problems. If you don't know what they're supposed to look like, you might not realize how bad they are.

Amazing how a seemingly simple modification can grow in complexity when the details are getting worked out.

When I need to reproduce the indicator arrow on the metal-flanged knobs, I use a sheet of Letraset. In addition to all of the letter characters on each sheet, there's also a big blank area at the header and footer from which you can cut custom shapes. They look dead-on original if you cut them properly and they hang on pretty well.

But now I see new Letraset sheets are apparently unavailable. But there are other dry-transfer products.
https://imagetransfers.com/blog/how-our-dry-transfers-different-from-letraset/

If the strike line has been moved presumably you need to drill new holes for the pivots in the wooden harp supports  as the old ones will be now out of position?

I think the answer is Yes.

Tight bridle straps may contribute to key bounce as they'll retain energy better than a strap that's allowed to go slack at rest.
Unfortunately, I know of no way to adjust bridle straps. They can only be replaced.

Heavy action is a hallmark of hybrid-hammer pianos. Even with the Miracle Mod, that curved hammer cam provides a less pleasing feel at the keys than the angled cam of the later design. Least that's my view. Some folks do prefer it.

Usually bridle straps have a very small amount of slack when the hammer is at rest. But an overly-tight bridle strap would only pull the damper arm further away from the tine. It wouldn't cause it to return prematurely.

Most likely, you just need to bend the damper arms a little bit. Try to bend them at the point where the bridle strap attaches. Pull them away from the tines. You're looking to strike a balance between the tine's freedom to vibrate and the felt's ability to stop it. It sounds like yours currently favors the felt too much.

I think I'll try the careful way and try not to ruin anything. The dirt I was speaking of was the dirt that's on the glue behind the pick-up.

I think you'll go nuts trying to wrap tape around wired-up pickups. I tried a few once.

I cut the bus wires to separate all of the pickups. I desolder the terminals, clean up the pickups then wire them back together. I'll bet all those steps still take less time than trying to finagle tape around connected pickups.

I use a toothbrush wetted with vinegar to clean the bobbin then use compressed air to blow away the loosened crud and also dry things out. I'm careful not to scrub the wire wraps and also not to hit the magnet wire with the compressed air.

Only one of my piano purchases involved any sort of negotiation. The rest were all asking prices.

If I was otherwise Rhodes-less, I'd be impatient and my cost threshold would be much higher.

One drawback of being a pretty solitary person is that I have little contact with members of the local music scene. Consequently, I don't hear about the "I'm moving and need to ditch my piano right now" kind of deals. But I've started to get a few local referrals so hopefully my name will come up more often when opportunity knocks. Right now, it's all Craigslist and ebay for me and they haven't been showing me any love for quite a while.

It occurs to me after reading this thread, that my website could be a good resource for folks looking to get a feel for Rhodes prices. I probably have more patience than most buyers - I can wait for decent deals - but otherwise, I have no special sources or extraordinary bargaining power.

This information is all available on my public site but it's not easy to find. Until I make a summary page, here's a run-down of the pianos I've bought. Each features a pretty thorough photographic record of the piano's condition when I bought it.


781397 - 1981 with plastic keys - $245
http://www.shadetreekeys.com/1981-seventy-three-mk-ii-781397/781397-restoration/

32766, 1973 - $600
http://www.shadetreekeys.com/1973-seventy-three-mk-i-32766/32766-restoration/

90375, 1976 - $450
http://www.shadetreekeys.com/1976-seventy-three-mk-i-90375/90375-restoration/

85966, 1976 - $600
http://www.shadetreekeys.com/1976-seventy-three-mk-i-85966/85966-restoration/

37683, 1974 - $600
http://www.shadetreekeys.com/1974-seventy-three-mk-i-37683/37683-restoration/

36345, 1974 - $750
http://www.shadetreekeys.com/1974-seventy-three-mk-i-37683/37683-restoration/

91066, 1976 - $350
http://www.shadetreekeys.com/1976-seventy-three-mk-i-91066/91066-restoration/

604073, 1977 - $600
http://www.shadetreekeys.com/1977-seventy-three-mk-i-604073/604073-restoration/

741354, 1978 (Suitcase top) - $300
http://www.shadetreekeys.com/1978-seventy-three-mk-i-741354/741354-restoration/

755167, 1976 - $450
http://www.shadetreekeys.com/755167-restoration/

I think the market has changed in the past year. A year ago, I'd have said $1,200 is way too much for a Rhodes that still needs some work and is missing parts. I've never paid more than $600 for a piano like that.

But like you're seeing out west, my local Craigslist has been devoid of any offers for quite some time. Most pianos listed on ebay right now have very high asking prices though from what I can see, they're not actually selling for those amounts.

Still seems like a lot of money for the condition you described.

Never would have thought to replace the tuning spring. Just goes to show how complicated the interaction of all the parts can be.

The escapement screw is nearest to the keyboard. The voicing screw is nearer to the pickups.

The fact that you're getting good sustain before the tone generator is installed does make me want to concentrate on the screws and grommets. Adding mass is definitely an effective way to increase sustain but I feel there is likely another issue that should be addressed.

Recently, I was helping a guy with the same issue. We tried different tines and even tone bars. As a sort of last-ditch effort, he replaced the screws and washers. He had new screws and washers to begin with but somehow replacing them with another set resolved his sustain issues. I don't know if it was really the hardware or just the act of disassembling and reassembling. But since he had already taken the assembly apart a couple of times before to swap out the other parts, I have to credit the hardware.

I doubt the springs are to blame, although one way of coaxing more sustain out of treble notes is to loosen up the escapement spring. A few folks back in the day removed the escapement screw and spring altogether. Towards the end, Rhodes began using rubber stand-offs instead of springs for the voicing screw. The rubber was supposed to keep the tines aligned without the need for two screws but nowadays those are typically replaced with the older two-screw setup.

Anyway, there are several ways to try to get more sustain.

First thing is to be certain everything is fully seated. I put an extra tine block under the tone bar, overtighten the escapement screw until the grommet begins to compress, then lift the front of the tone bar to fully seat the voicing grommet. Then I loosen the escapement screw back and remove the tine block.

After that, it's pretty much about adding mass. Try touching the escapement screw with a screwdriver. Don't apply any pressure, just let the weight of the screwdriver rest there. If that helps (it's surprising sometimes), try adding a second washer to that screw. If that doesn't work, tone bar clips might help. They're a very common, factory authorized tool for increasing sustain in the treble.

..and while I really don't want to start "a thing" here, I have to wonder what screws and grommets you're using. Some provide a much tighter fit than others and my limited experience suggests that tight fit isn't necessarily optimal.

My favorite example of felt tips.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZMXerWCH8Y

The plating on these braces I have here is falling off in large sheets like peeling paint.

Anyway, here's a model of what I've got. I don't know the year this is from but I'm pretty sure every brace I've ever seen has been exactly the same.


http://www.shadetreekeys.com/Rhodes/Models/HarpBrace.skp

This file opens in SketchUp which is free for personal use. It's pretty straightforward to rotate the model and take measurements using the Tape Measure tool.

I'll see if I can whip up a SketchUp model of one tonight. Shouldn't be too difficult.

Far as I know, they're just something like 0.050" (~1.5mm) sheet metal.

The plating on those seems different than that of any other Rhodes part. I don't know what it is but I actually have a stack of them (all spoken for, I'm afraid) that could use a re-plating so I hope to find out very soon.

A 1970 KMC 1 that came through my shop had only one factory harp brace.

Based solely on the fact that the Rhodes engineers eventually decided two braces were appropriate, I'd say yes, a second brace may have some benefits.

I left that KMC 1 with only one though and I'd do it again because I don't think it's really that important.

I can tell you this much: Once, I voiced a piano before installing the braces. After the braces were attached, I had to re-voice because the relationship of the tone bar and pickup rails changed.

I don't see why you couldn't make your own from some sheet metal.