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Messages - icemanaman

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1
Hi guys,

So I was adjusting my piano when I noticed that keys didnt return properly or fully to reset position. So I went ahead and fitted weights to them (acquired from ep-serivce.nl).

Anyways.. So I am in process of adjusting the lost motion now. How exactly do I adjust this evenly?
Can I measure how much a key dips before the hammer starts to move?

Till now I have just kind of "felt" how much the keys move before the the hammer starts to move, but this is very inaccurate.

Thanks!

2
cinnamonrolli, thanks for taking the time to do the experiments!
I'll look into the keys rubbing against adjacent keys. Thanks for the tip.
So, I'm just going to do the following and see how it ends up..

-Adjust key height to 2"
-Level keys
-Make sure no keys are rubbing against each other
-Adjust lost motion to 1/32"
-Adjust hammer let-off to 1/8"
-Adjust key dip to 3/8"-7/16"
-Maybe, add key weights

I have already done the following:
-Lubricated all action centres
-Eased keys
-Removed paper shims under reedbar

It's a shame if the problem doesn't decrease though. I play quite a bit of riffs that hit the same notes fast and frequently, resulting in muted notes.

3
Great video cinnamonrolli!  :)
This is the exact same behavior as my piano..
(Maybe the only way this wouldn't happen is if the hammer has more energy than the downswing of the reed?)

So, pianotuner steveo, are you still convinced that this problem can  be reduced or eliminated?
You have to let us in on the secret if you do!  ;) :)

4
Thanks cinnamonrolli! Looking forward to it :)

When you say that you push the damper arm lever instead of pressing the pedal, is this because you can't replicate the problem simply by holding the sustain pedal in?

5
Hi pianotuner steve,

Thanks for the info once again! :)

It's very helpfull to know that there is something that I can do about the problem. I've been feeling like it's a hopeless case lately.
But I will try to follow the manual very strictly now. Regulating one parameter of all the keys at a time. Starting with Key height.

A. I am still working on adjusting the key dip. I have started to adjust it, and I am adjusting it between 3/8" and 7/16.
Question: Are the black keys adjusted to the same specs? Just by measring how much the black keys dip compared to a white regulated key?

B. I am also adjusting the letoff. This I am adjusting to 1/8" from top of hammer to bottom of reed when hammer is at it's top.

C. The keys on my wurli have a general keyheight of 2.0". Some keys might be 1/32" - 1/64" above or below this. Is this a nokey starting point for key leveling? I don't need to adjust this by adding/removing hard paper shims between the balancing rail and the keybed?? (see page 6 of wurlitzer manual).

So looking in the manual, I will adjust the keys in the following order to the following specs if key height is good:

1. Key squaring.
Seems to be good. I WILL NOT ADJUST THIS.

2. Key leveling.
Will adjust this so that all keys are close to 2.0" as possible. Black keys I will adjust in accordance with manual.

3. Key spacing.
Seems to be good. I WILL NOT ADJUST THIS.

4. Striking point.
I WILL NOT ADJUST THIS AT THIS POINT.

5. Hammer blow distance.
I noticed that from key 15 or so, the Blow is 1/32" (approx 0.031") greater than the spec'd 1 5/64 (1.078").
Is this a problem? How would i be able to adjust this if so?? My wurli has a hammer rail on which the hammerbutts rest.

6. Lost motion.
I will adjust this to 1/32". My piano has little or no lost motion.

7. Let off.
Will adjust this so that hammers fall when 1/8" (0.125") from reed, on all keys.

8. Key dip.
Will adjust this so all dip on all keys are 3/8" - 7/16". Flat and sharp keys.

After this the manuel describes the damper servicing. I don't think this is the problem.

If i do all this, the problem should disappear. Right? If not, strike line still needs to be adjusted?
Can you please tell me if I can proceed with the above, and if it SHOULD solve the problem?

6
So what you both are saying is that the problem I am having is not just how it is with the wurlitzer?
It is an actual problem that can be solved by regulating the action or replacing parts?
And that it is possible to regulate a key so that it never mutes when playing it repeatedly and fast with the sustain pedal depressed?


1. I didn't remove the plastic spacers. I removed a couple of paper shims under the reed bars.

2. I pulled the reedbar towards the keys when screwing it down this time.

3. I trying to adjust the key dip to be between 0.375" and 0.410"

4. I am now adjusting in the order that the service manual describes. I'll be done with the bass harp soon. I will try to reinstall the amp and speakers then to check wheter it made any difference.

5. The jack springs don't seem weak. I have been onto that thought myself before.

7
I did take off the reed bar. There were 2-3 very thin shims there. I just removed those.
When re-installing the reed bar, I pushed it toward the back to make the hammers hit the reeds closer to the reed screw.
We'll see if that makes any difference.

I have no started adjusting each key to these specs:
-Key height (2.0")
-Key dip (0.375"-0.410")
-Lost motion (I chose to adjust this to less than the 0.030", but have some noticeable lost motion when looking at whip and hammerbutt)
-Blow distance (1.078")
-Hammer Let off (0.125")

So far I have adjusted the two bottom octaces. I haven't re-installed the dampers yet, and I try to observe the vibrating reed to hammer action.. I haven't tried with the speakers, but from what I can see up close and hear, the problem seems to persist here still.

To me.. It really still seems like the problem occurs when the hammer hits the reed at the "wrong" time, and most of the vibrating energy in the reed is transferred to the hammer, muting/choking that reed.
I don't see how the action regulation has anything to do with this..
And I don't understand how this problem can be solved? Can it be solved at all?
The only thing I can think of is adjusting the strike line so that the hammer hits the reed closer to the reedscrew, where the vibrations are less.. But then the ring time will decrease I guess..? That's just my theory though..

Please advise! :)

8
Hi again guys!
Thanks for sharing your thought on this.
Feeling lost on the matter here, I hope we can find some solution to solve this!

1. The piano was acting like this even before i tried adjusting the lost motion. And before I adjusted it, the piano had no lost motion.

2. I guess I could try adjusting the strikeline. BUT: It seems like (at least on the hammers I pulled out) that the hammers are adjusted as forward as possible. Meaning that I don't see how I could adjust them any closer to the reed screw. But maybe I'm wrong?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/lztf8ooz7z9bjjn/Photo%2011.03.15%2C%2007.21.02.jpg?dl=0

3. I will adjust the first key to correct lost motion and hammer drop and film it from the side in slowmo. Then maybe it will be easier to see whats happening. I'll upload it in this post:

4. They weights are not interfering with the action. I checked that already.

5. Cinnamonrolli: What you are saying about the hammer being flung back so quickly makes sense.

6. Could it be that the harps are too high somehow?

7. Is there a rule of thumb where about the hammertip should hit the reed?

8. Could key height and key dip be the problem? I just read that if the key dip is off, it could affect a lot of things in the action.
http://ep-forum.com/smf/index.php?topic=8394.0

9. Can I file the hammer tips to remove the groove in them??

9
Yeah I would say that all the keys act that way. Only the 10-14 uppermost keys seem less affected by this kind of problem. But then again, higher notes, and harder to hear clearly.

I took out the hammer. Doesnt seem to be VERY grooved. But I can feel a small groove. Maybe 0,5 millimeters.
Picture: https://www.dropbox.com/s/utuq3ol6zguv8sn/Photo%2010.03.15%2C%2017.59.17.jpg?dl=0

I´ll try to swap it out with one of the higher keys.

Yeah, I´ve been suspecting double strike as well. But I can´t hear that happening.. My GF has an iphone6 with slowmo video on it! I´ll try filming with it and see if it can clarify anything ;)

Edit: yeah, no.. I tried quickly with the hammer of key 64. Didnt helpt..

Edit 2: WOW! Check this out.. I might have discovered something.. This is a different key, but it acts the same way. Some random hits are muted. Hammer drop distance is about the same.. Watch it all the way through. I stopped playing as soon as i heard a muted hit. That last hit might actually be a double hit!?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qbn5ju2c2o4s9p0/IMG_4067.MOV?dl=0

10
So, an update!

1. A movie of a key being triggered slowly. Gap is like you said 1/8 to 3/16. Lost motion is less 1/64 to 1/32.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9p9civiycaqbo7c/Video%2010.03.15%2C%2016.24.47.mov?dl=0

2. Then I added weight to the key. First I added 15 grams (ca. 0.5 oz). Then I added even more to a total of 20 grams. (I also tried a key different key with 29 grams just to check..not pictured)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/n38616dbmplrjbf/Photo%2010.03.15%2C%2016.27.34.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/51f52mxnl5n9tks/Photo%2010.03.15%2C%2016.31.15.jpg?dl=0

3. The results: Did not work. I tried adjusting the hammer drop up and down, adjusted the lost motion up and down. Here is a video after added weight and adjustments back and forth. At the end of the video I drop the key up and down.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/giji1or6ef9ugkt/Video%2010.03.15%2C%2017.06.38.mov?dl=0

Soooo.. now what? Am I doing something wrong? Is there something else I should be checking now? Confused

11
Hi again Steveo,

Thanks again! I will make a video tonight hitting the keys slowly so you can see the hammers rise and be able to see the distance to the reed just before it drops.

So I will adjust all the hammers to drop at about 1/8"-3/16" (which is 3,2-4,8 millimeters) from the reed. That one I understand.

But what about "lost motion"? I saw the vintage vibe video about this and they said that lost motion in the key should be 1/32" (which is 0,8 millimeters). This seems A LOT to me.. My piano when I got it had basicly no lost motion. So I adjusted it to have a tiny bit.. But, how do I do this correctly? Measuring the gap between the top of the fly and the hammer is not doable. Do I just measure how much the key moves before the hammer starts moving (by measruing the key movement??).

Also, I checked ep-service.nl who are the vintagevibe distributor in europe. They sell key weight mod for wurlis. Each weight is 15 grams. Is this enough?? seems like very little weight.
I got a hold of a couple of weights which are 14,8 grams here at work. I'll try to temporarily tape them to the keys to see if this helps and make a video of this as well for comparison! :)

I'll upload later today!
Thanks again :)

12
Hi guys,

Thanks for helping with this!

I made another video (different key this time, but most of the keys act like this and are adjusted about the same).
I filmed from two different angles. Seems to me like the key is about 3 millimeters from the reed before it drops down again when played slowly.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/w2jkbix0dhyc5qx/Video%2008.03.15%2C%2022.17.57.mov?dl=0

As you mentioned, it does indeed act normally without the sustain pedal depressed. The problem only occurrs when i play with the sustain pedal depressed.
The thing I am not completely understanding is that the keys even mute/choke at slower tempos (see 0:30, maybe its not that slow??)..
So I don't understand how the key can use so long before it returns to default position. I mean, the keys don't feel sluggish, and they seem to return quite fast.. but perhaps like your sayind; not fast enough?

Could the strikeline be a part of the problem? If the hammer is hitting the reed too far out (where the vibrations are larger??)

Let me know if you need me to take any other movies or pictures! :)

Thank you so much both of you! :)

13
Hi there guys!
So, first of all Thank you for replying to my questions! :)

So I just adjusted my wurli in the weekend.
I lubed all the action points, lubed all the key pins, eased the holes in the keys..

But my problem with random notes being "thumped" or muted stil persists..

I have to say that it seems like maybe cinnamonrolli may have been right:
The hammer simply hits the reed on its upswing and sometimes dampens the note. The damper eliminates the possibility of hitting the reed on the upswing.

I uploaded a video to dropbox of me playing a key fast and repeatedly.. But.. I have noticed that the tempo doesn´t really matter.. when striking the key once a second, the same problem can still occurr...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/h7j5djbko9na408/File%2008.03.15%2C%2011.45.29.mov?dl=0

Not sure what I am supposed to do here...  :o

14
The Wurlitzer Electric Piano / First wurli, first post, first problem
« on: August 29, 2014, 07:29:54 AM »
Hi folks!
Aman from Norway here :)
I am brand new to the forum and the electric piano game!

I finally got my self a Wurlitzer 200A about 4 months ago, after a long time of dribling and searching on the web!
Not many of those in Norway, so I had to get it shipped from the states! Totally worth it!

My wurli is in quite good shape, however there is a couple of small issues I would like to get adress.
I did try to search the forum, but couldn't find exactly what I was looking for.
So I am hoping to get someone to point me in the right direction or help me out :)

First problem:
When playing, the action is quite fast and easy. No gooy or sluggish keys. When playing without depressing the sustain pedal, I am able to play the same key quite fast (3-4 times a second ish..) and every strike gives me a good sound.
However, when I depress the sustain pedal, and hit some of the keys at the same pace, every 3 or 4 note the key will not strike the reed properly, and the sound gets muted.. So to illustrate, if I was hitting a key with the sustain pedal pressed in at 3-5 times a second, here is kind of what it would be like:


tone tone tone tone mute tone mute tone tone mute mute tone tone tone mute tone tone.. you get the picture.

Is this a common fault and what is the remedy for this? Is it a fault at all??

Hope to get some help and get my Wurli playing without any issues! I am originally a guitar player, but I think I love the wurli more than any other instrument I have!

Thank you!

Aman

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