Messages

Hi .-)

The idea is great, but doesn't work in real live, or is kind of 'random'.

After doing over 100 Wurlitzers, i can say: The distance from the reed-bolt thread inside the aluminum casting to the corner where the reed 'leaves' the supporting edge differs from cast to cast by roundabout +/-1,5mm.

So, tuning with another fixture than the 'real' cast (where the reed will be mounted to) will be only a approx. in tuning in most cases.

Jenzz

I continue to disagree.
You cannot view this attachment.
If your statement was true, then Vintage Vibe wouldn't be able to sell pre-tuned reeds.

Jenzz,
I'd like to benefit from your experience. If you don't mind, I have a couple questions for you.
   
--What would you define as the manufacturer's intended mean (nominal) dimension from reed hole center to the supporting edge? You know, like '6,8 +/- 1,5' or '5,9 +/-1,5' or '7,1 +/-1,5'?
   
--For a given reed frame, how much variation do you observe in the dimension from hole center to the supporting edge?
   
--Do you find that the machining is more precise on the later pianos like the 200A, than it is say on the early pianos like the 112's or 120's?

Thanks in advance--JM

Jenzz, are you thinking that supporting edge is defined by an as-cast surface? It isn't. Both surfaces that intersect to form the edge are fully machined.

Quite accurately machined, in my experience. Maybe just good luck! Of all the Wurlitzers that I've owned (less than a dozen), I would say that the dimension from reed hole center to the supporting edge didn't vary by more than a few thousandths of an inch from piano to piano. Maybe you meant to say "...roundabout +/-0,15 mm"?

Back in the gigging days, I had great success tuning lots of reeds with this method. Although I was usually working with one piano at a time, I don't remember ever having an intonation issue stealing a reed from one piano and putting in another piano. (Admittedly, those days playing in bar-bands with guitars and saxes, I was probably a repeat offender of the 5 cent rule haha)
You cannot view this attachment.You cannot view this attachment.   

Back in the 70's, when I was still gigging with a REAL Wurlitzer (and breaking plenty of reeds), I got tired of trying to tune reeds IN the piano. I came up with this: a fixture to tune reeds outside the piano, using my (then new) Korg WT10 digital tuner! (It was revolutionary!)

More recently, after I retired, I was planning to sell new replacement Wurlitzer reeds. I figured I could maybe sell this 'reed station' along with new reeds, to tune reeds before installing them into the piano. With the advent of clip-on tuners and a 'reed station', one could easily pre-tune a reed before installing it into the piano. Particularly handy for, say 120 models where there is no practical way to tune reeds other than (1) pull the harp out (2)install the reed (3)check intonation (4)remove harp to access newly installed reed (5)pull the harp again and repeat...

When clip-on tuners were introduced, it made this method particularly practical. When I was considering marketing replacement Wurlitzer reeds in my retirement, I thought maybe this 'reed station' could be a complementary product. It consists of
•   an aluminum block, machined to replicate a section of the reed harp...
•   ...thru-bolted to a piece of hard maple
A clamp-on tuner is mounted to the aluminum block. The reed can be soldered and filed to achieve intonation, before being installed in the piano. This eliminates the iterations of putting the reed in and out of the piano, and keeps the lead filings out of the piano.

I prototyped a handful of these 'reed stations', before I got lazy and decided not to sell replacement reeds.

Anyway, just throwing this out in case anyone wants to simplify their reed tuning process, go ahead and make your own 'reed station'.

Mat,
I PM'd you about this; check and reply by email if interested.

I believe it's aluminum, I wouldnt waste the time,effort and money trying to chrome it...especially since nobody will ever see it except you..

It's actually zinc plated steel. There really isn't a way to restore the look of the existing zinc plate, because it would remove the thin 'clear chromate' conversion coating that protects the active zinc plate from corroding in atmosphere. 

In the 1970's, one could find a job-shop plater that could strip and rack-plate one piece for a reasonable cost, but that ship sailed a long time ago.
[moderator removed inappropriate text]

Of course you want the rail to look good. Now days, we own these pianos out of passion. We want them to be perfect, in and out, right? An alternative to replating the rail: Eastwood offers spray paints that replicate different plated finishes. This might be a solution. (Be sure to remove the new coating at grounding points, obviously.)  https://www.eastwood.com/ew-clear-zinc-aerosol-12-oz.html

Finish the rail with a new foil warning label printed on your printer  https://www.onlinelabels.com/materials/metallic-foil-labels?campaign=Metallic+Labels&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIuYDFnPeh9AIVVHtvBB3OxwrNEAAYAiAAEgK_v_D_BwE

Decades ago, I bought a 200 from a notable player in New Orleans. The rail was victimized by the NOLA humidity (pictured). I didn't bother restoring it then, but if I owned it now, I'd refinish it.

You probably dealt with Schaff Piano Supply every day as a working technician. If you still have standing with Schaff as a professional technician, they can supply all the standard punchings, rail pins, damper felt, bushing felt, key tops etc that are found in Wurlitzers, also tools you may need like capstan wrenches and the famous 'Schaff 4102 Let-Off  Screwdriver'. 

If you no longer have 'professional status' with Schaff:  Affleck and Vanda King are distributors for the entire Schaff catalog, and can make everything available at good prices. 

http://www.affleckpianotuning.com/
https://www.vandaking.com/

[I understand your comment about wanting to make reeds.]

If I knew what kind of steel they're made of, I'd give it a shot at making my own.

I understand your comment about wanting to make reeds. I'm a retired mechanical engineer/metallurgist and have owned a number of Wurlitzers, continuously since the 1960's. Before the resurgence of interest in these pianos, I decided to make my own reeds. Identified Wurlitzer's original steel supplier and alloy, plotted the geometries, and pursued the process to shape the reeds that would prevent stress-raising/decarbing/annealing. Wound up making hundreds of reeds of all styles. I considered selling reeds as a cottage industry in my retirement, but decided against complicating my leisure.

I had the advantage of being employed for decades by defense contractors, with access to CMM, solid modeling, FEA, FFT harmonic analysis, metallurgical laboratory, etc. Also, my position gave me enough weight with vendors to source small quantities of the alloy steel from the European steel producer. (I needed pounds, they like to ship TONS.)

So now I have hundreds of reed blanks, sitting on the shelf, both 120-style and 140/200-style. The unit cost was fairly negligible.

Where I'm going with this:
Reed steel is VERY hard. Not easy to effectively shape without serious capital equipment. Unless you have access to industrial processes, I'd advise against trying to make your own, just for a few reeds.

When you take this deep a dive into reeds, you begin to discover many, many things that Wurlitzer got wrong WRT reed longevity .

Yep VV reeds are expensive, but there when you need 'em.

Check Ebay. Someone usually has NOS reeds ror less. Right now, someone has NOS reeds for $7.50 + $3.25 shipping.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/372653110355?hash=item56c3db3453:g:vTsAAOSwqSJbWNZF

Or, if you have a spare #21-#41 reed, it can be used for #42 by shortening it to fit (diagonal cutters, bench grinder or whatever) then adding or removing solder and shaping the solder until it is in tune.

It would be slightly shorter than your installed #41 reed. As described here, the #42 should be about 1/20" shorter than the #41.

https://ep-forum.com/smf/index.php?topic=9643.0

https://paleophone.net/?page_id=1896

https://www.tropicalfishvintage.com/blog/2020/5/7/how-to-tune-a-wurlitzer-electronic-piano-reed

You'll find that Steve Espinola ('paleophone' & 'Doc Wurly') and Jon Borducci ('Tropical Fish') are great resources.

https://www.vintagevibe.com/products/wurlitzer-140-200-series-hammer-tips

Here's another original black 120.

Serial number 8755 is in the first 5% of Model 120 serial numbers--aligns with Steve's 'first year'  observation.

As the mahogany models have a brown pebble-grained film on the aluminum cover, this has a black pebble-grained film on the cover.

It's a 720 or 726(?)--   https://www.tropicalfishvintage.com/blog/2020/5/29/from-the-archives-wurlitzer-726

Hey Alan Lenhoff, that's Joey Dosik, from Ann Arbor's own Vulfpeck and My Dear Disco!!

The pedal connection on a 206 is just like on a 200. Once you remove the the speaker cabinet and 206 pedal linkage, the threaded damper rod (identical to the 200) remains. A standard (or aftermarket) cable-type pedal can be used.

I'd opt for satin. The gloss looks unrealistically shiny.

Be careful sanding so that you don't remove too much of the texture in areas. Yeah, speaking from experience here

The plastic tops are ABS (acrylonitrile butadiene styrene), vacuum formed from Royalite brand sheet. ABS accepts solvent-borne paint very well, unlike polyethylene and polypropylene that paint won't stick to, or PMMA & polycarbonate that are crazed by some solvents. There is a ton of misinformation and generalizations about painting 'plastic' out there...
   

There's a lot of low end...I mean that complex harmonic content,

Fact is, with Wurlitzers, there really ISN'T complex harmonic content, particularly in the middle registers.

The 200A series(including 206A) uses thicker reeds than the 140s and non A 200s.

Is this just more mythology? Or can someone actually document dimensional differences between 200 and 200A reeds?

I mic'ed the speaker...

Heck yeah. It works for this guy--

Least obtrusive... Headphone jack to ART ZDirect DI box to Danelectro Tuna Melt Tremolo to amp or board. About 70 bucks total, no soldering haha

[Does your piano have wooden spacers at each end under the reed bar?]

... late '59 120...

Reed bar spacer mystery--
Our pianos were made about the same time. Does your piano have wooden spacers at each end under the reed bar?

Mine does. I've shown this picture before, the spacers are about 1/4" thick, which is the same as the damper spacers on 39-54. My spacers are loose, not glued to the reed bar mounting blocks that are part of the piano case, and not coated with black shielding paint.

Has anyone else seen spacers like this?

I believe these spacers are standard from the factory, because
   --This extra elevation is necessary to locate the reeds relative to the hammers and dampers
   --I doubt that the piano had been modified before I bought it in 1967.
   --The spacers look 'manufactured', not like something a tech would make
   --The spacers are made of blockboard, not plywood or solid wood. Unusual material, but common to Wurlitzer. The keybed of the 120's case is made from 1/2" blockboard.

Speaking of blockboard, a little off-topic, but the construction of the 120 cases is really solid. They're NOT 'particle board'. If you've never seen one stripped: they are cold-molded plywood on the blockboard base, screwed together with tons of c'sunk #10 wood screws, filled and sanded before the application of the awesome Zolatone.

[first most important tool]

The foam idea is neat, but how do you regulate the dip? Do you have standard paper/ cardboard punchings under the foam?

Steveo is right, the first most important tool to have with a 120 is the letoff tool. There is a guy on ebay that has the perfect tool at a good price ;-) This tool can be hard to find, otherwise.

As far as the key dip: the thickness of the compressed foam is negligible. It doesn't really affect the key dip. The keys COULD be shimmed in the traditional manner, but in the 53 years I've owned this piano, none of the white keys were ever shimmed for key dip. If there were a fraction of a millimeter difference from one key to another, I'd never know!

The foam definitely removes the 'hard as a piece of wood' feel from the action. (This isn't as necessary on the black keys, because the player has significantly less mechanical advantage due to the shorter lever arm length of the black keys.)

Just to add a little to what Steveo said...
The black keys don't have front rail punchings either; they have little felt blocks ("Sharp Stop Felt") on the underside of each sharp key. (See illustration)  Over time, this felt can get pretty compressed from smacking the small area of the flathead screw. I took strips of soft felt and laid them over the screw heads, located by the front rail pins. That felt much better.

On the subject, the action of the 120 was very light and abrupt, like riding a bicycle over a curb. So, rather than trying to weight the keys, I tried putting light foam blocks under the white-keys, over the front rail pins, to provide progressive key resistance. Using these foam blocks, the touchweight of the white keys is now just a little over 50g. Pretty easy to set up--if the weight is too high, just trim a little foam off. If you trim too much off, use another block. 

200A ...a slightly thicker reed on these...   

Does anyone have the details on the change in reed thickness between the 200 and 200A?
     --Which reed numbers were changed?
     --What were the thicknesses before and after the change?

The OP posted this (upper) picture...

For those that might have missed it, sadly, Annie Glenn passed away last week from Covid 19 at the age of 100.

In the intro to Aretha Franklin's 'Bridge Over Troubled Waters', is that a tube Wurlitzer, maybe a 120? Or is it a Pianet or something? My ears aren't that good anymore.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9-yfeA2JZs

I think she used a 120 much earlier, in 'Soul Serenade', right? But it was mostly buried in the mix.

and then... what does it mean if a serial number has a "P" on the end?  I've only seen this on two 112A's, #7006P and #7200.

Yeah, another mystery. I thought it meant 'Pratt-Read' action, maybe not.

In my database:
     --NO 112's have a 'P' in the serial number,
     --ALL 112A's have a 'P' in the serial number.
     --Highest 112 s/n I have is 6540.
     --Lowest 112A s/n is 4954P

So there were at least ~1500 numbers that overlapped with or without 'P'.

I've got that 7200P in my collection, too! It' the highest 112A I have, before the 120's start at ~8000.

Are you sure it's 813 and not 831?

Oops, it's '831'. The '939' lines up with the 1959 date on the rectfier tube. Thanks again, DocWurly!

[You're right! PAYDIRT!]

...The most surefire way to date this thing, given all the other mysteries, is by looking on the tubes in the amp.  If any of them are the originals, the years and weeks of year will be on those tubes.  The transformer might have a date code on it, too...

You're right! PAYDIRT! Thanks, DocWurly. The (original?) Wurlitzer-labeled GE rectifier tube is dated 43rd week of 1959.

So between (1) the rectifier tube's date code, (2) the assumption of a serial number around 20700, and (3) an optimistic interpretation of the ink stamps on the keys, maybe the piano is early to mid 1960? 

The output transformer has two row of numbers neatly pressed into the metal:
     600613-C
      813939
Any idea what these numbers mean?

(FWIW, the RCA 6V6's are date code 'AT' [Sept 65], so guess these are replacement tubes installed around 1965-66.)   

[Hi Guys, can you help?]

Threads on this topic:

http://ep-forum.com/smf/index.php?topic=9303.msg50803#msg50803

http://ep-forum.com/smf/index.php?topic=9359.0
  ...With the 120 and 700, the most consistent dating I've found is a piece of handwritten masking tape hidden on the back of the reed bar.  There may be other stamps on the wood or electronics (esp speakers) in certain cases...

Hi Guys, can you help?

I'm trying to date my Model 120, and approximate the serial number.  I've owned my 120 for 52 years. Many years ago, the serial number plate went AWOL.

There are some numbers stamped here and there. (See pictures)—

Key #1 has a faint stamp that appears to be "2  560  20", but could be "2  569  20"—Thoughts?

Key #3 is stamped "[C]OMPO", anybody know what this means?

Key #57 has a stamp on the underside. Using some imagination, it LOOKS like a 1960 date stamp. The stamp style is like the date stamp in the attached 112 picture. Thoughts?

(Key #4 has a Pratt-Read [not Wurlitzer] patent number; this number also stamped on the action rail. The patent was issued Dec 30, 1958, so I guess the action was shipped from Pratt-Read no earlier than January 1959.)

Ink stamp on back of the speaker "600141"—does that mean anything?



Here's what I DO know about my piano: it is a 'later' 120, that had the...
  --Painted lid, not textured film
  --Simple (not the ornate) Wurlitzer decal
  --Incandescent (not neon) lamp
  --Two-hole (not four-hole) nameplate--Does anybody know the highest serial number that used the four-hole plate, or the lowest S/N with the two-hole plate?
  --Amplifier S/N 18628. I seem to remember that the amp serial number about 2000 higher or lower than the S/N on the piano's nameplate. Do any of you know this spread on YOUR 120's or 700's?

Alan, totally off topic-- Thanks, belatedly, for all your great work with the Michigan Daily. It was an interesting time to be in Ann Arbor. Great music!

(From Bob, retired in Traverse City)

[Here are some damper observations from my 120.]

I'm pretty sure that some were made without those wood spacers, I've seen a few without them...

Here are some damper observations from my 120.

My 120 has the damper spacers only on keys #39 and above. I assume it never had spacers on #1 thru #38. These spacers are about .250" x 250" x damper arm width.

The reed bar is spaced up with a wooden shim on each end. I presume this was from the factory. These shims are made from 6mm blockboard (NOT plywood). Have any of you seen these shims on 120's or 700's?

I bought this piano, S/N ~16500, in 1967, and assume it was original and unmolested when I bought it. It was like new, in the home of a pastor. It had the green foam dampers in it then.

Over the years, I've replaced the dampers a few times, always using regular piano damper felt from Schaff. Last time, on the 1-20 keys I used the vee-type single-string felts that are about 9/16" high overall (Schaff #1535).

[Great bench!]

Great bench! Hey, by any chance are the legs stamped 'DECAR PLASTIC CORPORATION'?

If so, that would be a fun connection to Wurlies, since Decar made the legs for the first 200's. They were primarily a manufacturer of laminated "plastic school furniture tops". (1212 N. Central Park Avenue, Chicago 51, Illinois)

...I'd love to have it more portable to take out...

This begs the question: How many of us actually take our Wurlitzers out to gig?  (This might be heresy, but) I'm happy to just take the Nord Electro. I don't think anybody in the audience cares.

I agree with cinnanon, chop but keep the parts.

I don't have the speaker cabinet for my 206, but I stashed the original "Student Electronic Piano" faceplate.

I bought my 206 from Chris Tuttle, who was Jewel's keyboard player at the time. Another 'brush with fame' haha,

Without the speaker attached, the 206 is easy to store.

I agree with you guys, for nearly fifty years I assumed that it was a 120 on 'I Can't Seem to Make You Mine' and 'Pushin' Too Hard'. But thru the wonders of the internet, we see Daryl Hooper with a Wurly with the 140-type case, as you note.

Does a 145 with a tube amp sound more like a 120?

Jason M

Here's our problem. It's never good enough... When I was a kid playing in a band, if the keyboard worked at all, that was good enough. An old Wurli or Hammond? If it plays, good enough... Sometimes good is better than best.

Having said that, I'm not going to stop reading and asking for help here.

Neither my 120 or my 206 chop have an aux out. I play them out of the piano amp into a DI box, either a ProCo CB-1 or ART ZDirect 1 ($29 of brilliance!) Knocks the signal down for pedals/amp or directly into the board.

Okay, scoff if you will, but I love my redneck 'variable vibrato': I just play thru a Danelectro Tuna Melt tremolo and DI box. Thirty five bucks new, and totally variable.

Use it to record and to play live. I couldn't ask for more. Actually, I started using this with my 120, which doesn't have factory tremolo. It worked so well, I started using it with my 206 chop. On the 206, I'd activated the 'vibrato' circuit using the VV kit, but prefer the Tuna Melt.

For a REAL wobbly vibrato, I use an old Line 6 Roto Machine.

The page in adcurtain's link seems to have expired, but there is an instructive Wikipedia page at:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retr0bright   

The last Wurly I did, I brightened the keys using what I had around the house. First by rubbing the keys longwise with a paste of Zud on a piece of old terrycloth towel. This whitened them and really got the crud off, without really removing material. (If you haven't used it, Zud is a scouring cleaner with fine abrasive and oxalic acid.) Then I polished them using DuPont White Polishing Compound.

Question: Does anyone have an foolproof way to remove the finger stains from the bare wood on the sides of the keys?

I totally agree with steveo about replacing keytops. I replaced keytops on a piano back in the 70's, and vowed I'd never do it again.

Filing "...expertly done." Haha.

I once found this reed in a Wurli that I had been gigging with for years. I sounded great, but I had to pull it out as a trophy.

. Never take sandpaper, Emory cloth or steel wool to the reeds in a Wurlitzer. It's ok to clean Rhodes tines like that, but not Wurlitzer reeds.

It is okay to clean the rust and coating off Wurlitzer reeds with abrasives like emory or silicon carbide paper, just be sure to only rub in the direction of the length of the reed. The original dry phos coating by itself provides basically no corrosion protection. One of the many Wurlitzer mysteries is why they phos'd them at all. The treatment exposed the reeds to hydrogen embrittlement.

No new aftermarket reeds that I know of have the coating, including Vintage Vibe's.

How nasty is the environment that'll cause rusty reeds? I once had a Wurly that had spent twenty years (of humid summers and cold winters) in a unheated garage. There was no rust anywhere inside the piano. 

Elegant bit of value-engineering for Wurlitzer to take a 2 cent bolt, drill and tap the end, and have it serve two functions, supporting the lid and fastening the music rack!

I couldn't find the assembled reed height in the 120 (or 112) manual. If I'm missing it, please let me know! As it is, my 120 action is perfect, with the spacers under the reed bar that were there when I bought the unmolested piano in 1967.

I misspoke (mistyped?)... the source for the Schaff 4102 letoff tool is vandaking.com. Vanda King sells sell all the Schaff tools and supplies to the general public, at very good prices. I'm not affiliated with them, other than that I've done business with them for decades. Just wanted to pass this source on. They are a good source for lots of 'standard' piano tools and parts used in Wurlies (and Rhodes'), such as rail pins and punchings, damper felts, leathers, capstan tools, damper felt material, key tops, etc.

Quick caveat about heating reeds: the temper temperature for reed steel is only about 625 deg F. Heating to 800 deg F can draw down the steel to about 80% of tensile strength (and corresponding fatigue endurance).

Cinnanon, those reeds are REALLY bent! I've seen slight bending this on my old 120 that still has many original reeds, just deformed enough to make them start to loose volume. On a 120, the eleven (I think) uppermost notes don't have dampers, so I just flipped some of the reeds over and continue to use them. Not ideal, but I hardly ever play up there anyway. 

Good! The Wurlitzer badge is real metal, not one of the plastic reproductions that someone added later. My information is that those metal badges were mounted on the last 200A's, somewhere around s/n 135*** to 153***.

My thought was this: if some owner had 'decorated' the piano with a plastic badge, than maybe they also 'decorated' with the side stickers. Since the badge is 'real', and period-correct to the serial number, then doesn't it seem more likely that the side stickers are factory-applied, too?

(The metallized plastic reproduction badges ARE very nice.)   

I agree with Tim Hodges: keep the stickers.

To my knowledge, no one has ever reproduced the smaller side stickers, so even in the absence of any other provenance, suggests that this instrument is kinda special. Is the Wurlitzer logo on the back made of metal, or plastic? What are first three digits of s/n?

SirRibin,
These 120's are wierd ducks, ain't they?

My 120 clearly never had the damper extensions. I  replaced the original green foam dampers around 1970.

Just out of curiosity, if you don't mind, what's the serial number of yours? (First two or three digits is okay.)  If the s/n plate is gone, what's the amplifier's serial number?

Thanks.

Do the hammers let off, or do they block?

If the action is fine now, raising the reed bar would require adjusting the letoff. That's a pretty quick job, using the Schaff #4102 tool (also available from Vanda Kay, I think).

But hmmm... I was just looking at the original Model 120 service manual-- the cross-section drawing with parts callouts doesn't really indicate the presence of the wooden spacers that my piano has. Okay, now I'm baffled.

I'm wondering as well if the reed bar could be sitting up higher? The reed bar is sitting on only the rubber grommets. Thanks.
[/quote]

Yes! On my 120, the harp assembly sits on wooden spacers, maybe 1/8" or 3/16" thick. I'm guessing on the thickness, haven't been in there in a while. Just cut yourself some spacers to raise the reeds up to the dampers.

I'm pretty sure that the wooden spacers under the reed bar are original from the factory; I've owned this piano for fifty years.

Originally the piano had the green foam dampers  . I replaced them initially with solid felts, but a few years ago I replaced the lower notes with the vee type dampers, similar to the 200 series. I bought the damper material (for piano bass strings) as a strip from Vanda Kay, and cut them to length. For me, these work much better than the solid felt.

Is this reed higher or lower than the reeds around it, relative to the reed bar?

Boy, still suspicious that the reed isn't centered in the reed bar... If the reed is too close to one side, the signal can be quite a bit louder.

I wouldn't worry about rust on the reeds, as long as they're holding pitch. 

I have a picture of Richard Carpenter playing a black Wurlitzer with those smaller stickers on the sides, like yours. That picture was from May 1973, playing at the White House for President Nixon.
I also have another picture where he's playing a black Wurly with the larger sticker on the back, like the one VV sells. That larger sticker can also be seen on the back of Sha Na Na's tan top 200 in the movie 'Woodstock'.

(Sorry, I just deleted my comment.)