Messages

[Big thanks to Rob A for suggesting the JB Ferox plugin]

Hey folks, thanks so much for all the knowledge, tips & advice you've given me the past few months. I just finished a preliminary mix of a tune which is 100% Rhodes. Well, aside from vocals and drums that kick in at the end.

Big thanks to Rob A for suggesting the JB Ferox plugin which really warmed up the tone. Toward the end is a "guitar solo" which is a Seventy-Three with the escapement adjusted to mucho harmonics & piped through a cheap Esteban amp cranked to 11. The opening percussion is me smacking on the low end of an Eighty-Eight. And of course big thanks to bjammer & everyone who offered invaluable advice on how to get my piano working in the first place. And james thanks for this freakin awesome site!!!

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=7026810
(click 'play hi-fi')

Hope you like it. Feel free to comment, criticize, suggest anything. It's a work in progress...

Oh, I see... What I've got is the Rogers design (not the ring lock), so I should be ok? Sounds good to me.

I guess this one just has a smaller wingnut on it. Rogers probably had a few different varieties over the years. Btw, would it also have been feasible to buy an old Rogers hi hat off ebay and use the rod from that? It's funny, Rhodes sustain rods are pretty pricey, but Rogers hi hats usually sell cheap.

Good point, I didn't realize the surrounding pickups could have an effect on the note's volume.

Well guess what, I started tapping on the pickups with a screwdriver, and they all sounded ok. Then I hit the note, and suddenly it sounds perfect.  :? I guess just fiddling around with it brought it back to life? Or maybe tiny elves fixed my piano overnight. Either way, problem solved for now.

Maybe the pickup is in the process of dying, so I'll be ready with a replacement if necessary. Good to know I can interchange red & white because that's what I've got. Thanks!

When a pickup dies, does it go dead all at once, or does it slowly lose volume? I have a note that seems to be getting quieter. No matter how I adjust the tine & pickup position I can't get much volume out of it.

And on a related question, can I mix & match old (red) pickups with new (white) ones? Or is there a significant difference in pickup design that'll make the note sound odd?

hey bjam, I'm bumping this old thread because I just ordered a sustain rod and I think it's the early thumb-tightened kind. At least, the nut doesn't look like the Rogers wingnut kind; it's much smaller (see pic). Anyway, my question is, can I just replace the thumbscrew/nut with a Rogers wingnut? I'd hate to run into the problem hibou posted about.

Does it have to be an official 140B? Here's a Model 720 with an amplifier from a 140B. The poor thing looks like hell... all carved up... but it "sounds fantastic and is a joy to play" according to the ad.

http://allentown.craigslist.org/msg/868700103.html

It's in PA, but if you're really desperate for that sound maybe shipping will be worthwhile. Good luck dude  

the screw holding the grounding wire was clamping the pin for the sustain arm meaning the pedal was pushing the piano up instead of the sustain rail. doh!!!!!

Dude, you must have one powerful pedal foot! I'm picturing the incredible hulk playing a Rhodes, stepping on the pedal and sending the piano flying into the air  :lol: Anyway congratulations on figuring it out & fixing the problem.

CP-70 for $100 on craigslist!!!!
If you're anywhere CLOSE to San Francisco, go!!
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/ele/894735626.html

Looks good to me too, and I agree '75 was a great year. The only thing that confuses me is it seems to have a wooden frame in pics 3 & 6. Shouldn't a '75 Rhodes have an aluminum frame?

know what you mean, but then had a vague memory of him with OP (maybe he should stick to breaking instruments !? )

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvQIobg0BwU

Man... Oscar SMOKED Keith's butt! (and he didn't need any knives either)  

That was fucking pathetic. I know he was pissed on the crew for constantly lightning his audience, but this is horrible.

Just like those horrible videos featuring Keith Emerson

You mean like this???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xggFzkyd288

I'm not a big fan of that either. The Billy Joel video did give me a chuckle, though :lol:

I always suspected Keith Emerson was a moron. Now I've seen proof  

As for Billy Joel... big man. I guess he got his ass beat too many times in the ring and decided to hit back at inanimate objects. lol I remember seeing his interview where he tried to explain himself, saying something like "The Russian people are afraid enough. They don't want bright lights in their faces!" Like a 250 lb Jersey oaf throwing heavy projectiles around will help that situation?  :lol:

hey pianorock, not to undercut Vintage Vibe's business, but if you go to a regular fabric/vinyl store you can get "tolex" for half the price of specialty Rhodes dealers. The fabric stores will be happy to mail you some small swatches.

For example, if you're anywhere close to Philly, there's J&O Fabrics
http://www.jandofabrics.com/categories.asp?id=15

Their prices are below $18/yard. You can also contact any Tolex distributor and ask if they can beat J&O's advertised price. 9 times out of 10 you'll save a bundle. Good luck & post pics when you're done!

It may be because the hammer is coming in contact with the vibrating tine. Try this, hit the note (normal force), then press down on the key harder. Does the note suddenly go dead? I have 2 notes that do this, and in both cases the hammer is the problem. I should fix it, but I'm too lazy. I just play softer instead.  :?

I'm guessing the note worked fine before you replaced the hammer? Your hammer tip (since it's new) may be a few millimeters too long. Does it look the same size as the others? It might be possible to sand it down with fine grit (150) emery paper. But don't take my word on that; I've never tried it.

I've recently fell in love with the CP's. I don't know what Steve used on the album, but this is a great video with the CP.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftzOFm1NXwY

Good one! Here's another classic CP70 tune
"Video Killed the Radio Star"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWtHEmVjVw8

He has a Rhodes behind him which he plays toward the end, but I don't hear it. That CP70, though... such a defining sound of the 80s ("New Year's Day" - U2, "In Your Eyes" - Gabriel, etc).

And if you've ever peeked under the hood of one, it's a marvel to see. I'm so shocked the idea of amplified string pianos never caught on.

P.S. Funkin, did you ever figure out how to pack one up?

Wow, this is the first time I've ever seen one of those "willie wonka golden ticket" harp labels that's legible. Thing must've been preserved in suspended animation for the last 30 years

I could use that logo to repair the 1979 Mark I  "hodes" I bought yesterday.

Actually, all I need is the "R" - can you send me that?

I have plenty pickups to trade.   I'll PM.

Haha, I'm working on a "Rhooe" myself. ("d" and "e" broken off)
Have you figured out some way of attaching individual letters?

Good to read all these suggestions. I've been trying to figure this out also.

I had some promising results with this method:

1. Get a dish or small tupperware container, about the dimensions of the logo.
2. Pour turpentine in the dish, about 1/16" deep.
3. Put the logo in the turpentine bath, face up.
4. Using a sponge or towel, dab off the excess turpentine so only the letters remain above the waterline.
5. Spray paint the whole thing (oh, I forgot to mention, don't use your best tupperware coz it'll be toast after this)
6. The key step (the part I screwed up)... DON'T MOVE IT. Let it sit & dry for days if necessary. It will take much longer than the usual drying time because the turpentine fumes will slow the process considerably.
7. If you've made it this far, you're home free. Carefully put your sponge in the turpentine bath to soak up as much as possible. Remove your logo. Done.

Note: I never succeeded with this method because in step 6 I knocked the bath & screwed up the whole thing. But up to that point it was working beautifully. I may try it again, but overall I don't think it's worth the trouble. Like bjam said, it's easier & cheaper to buy a new logo.

Wild coincidence... just yesterday I went through the same dilemma. I literally had the saw in my hand and was ready to slice away, but I couldn't bring myself to do it.

Like you, I decided I'd build my own replacement top. A whole new case, actually. I intend to make it out of aluminum for (1) lightness, (2) shielding, (3) easy to work with, (4) save some trees.

Imagine being able to tote your Rhodes around with one arm. Wow.

I called Steve Hayes at Speakeasy; he says it's possible but would cost too much. But I know an aluminum smith who's worked for me in the past. I bet I can have it done for a few beaners.

If anyone has precise case dimensions/specs handy, that would be a big help. If this thing works, I'll be happy to share the design with you guys for free. Take it to any aluminum shop and there you go.

What's the deal with people using the Rhodes as an ashtray anyway? Grr...

Well at least it's not as bad as one Rhodes I saw for sale... apparently someone thought it would be cool to set a candle on the harp cover. Yeah, real cool until the wick got down to the plastic

Anyway, great suggestions folks. I never considered sanding/refinishing the burnt keys, but it seems possible for most of them. Is there some sort of "liquid plastic" or resin that can be applied to the nasty areas? A few cigarette burns left some minor craters.

bjam, I'll keep an eye out for keycaps. You're right, I recall seeing the guru selling some on ebay but that was before I got this piano. You said it, though... there's some noticeable variation in key caps between production years. My late '75 piano has slightly yellower, squarish keys while my '76 has brilliant white, rounded-edged keys. The wrong replacement would stick out like a sore thumb. I'm off to check out the thread you mentioned. Thanks!

I was lucky to pick up a Rhodes 88 with wonderful action. Smooth as silk, responsive, and just enough buoyancy for my playing style. The problem? The keys look like bloody hell! Cigarette burns on a dozen of them, chips on a dozen more...

Am I correct in assuming that the keys are the most important factor that determines the action? If so, if I replace these ugly keys will I lose that magic action? What would you do in this situation?

P.S. The keys don't have any mods. They seem to be factory standard--just a great batch, I suppose. Until some chain smoking godzilla got a hold of em  :x

Ah, that would make sense because my louder piano has seen a lot less use.

But this sorta opens up a scary thought... replacing a tine isn't as easy as buying one off ebay. Ideally you should match the broken tine with a new one from the same production year with equal use.

Most tine suppliers (like vintagepartsguru whom I asked on the phone) don't know the year or style of tine they're selling you. It's all luck-of-the-draw.

I have two Rhodes, a Seventy-Three from late '75 and an Eighty-Eight from early '76. You'd think they'd sound & feel much alike.

Well, the Eighty-Eight is a lot louder acoustically. I can play it unplugged and still hear it pretty well, whereas the Seventy-Three I have to put my ear up against if I want to hear it.

Another benefit of the louder piano is that I can feel the keys vibrating more when I hit the notes. It's hard to describe, but it adds a lot to the feel.

So my question is what makes it louder? Is it just because it's an 88 (a few inches longer), or could there have been some design changes between late '75 and early '76 that made the difference?

And for those of you who have owned/played different Rhodes, have you noticed a difference in the acoustic volume & resonance?

There's a free tape sim plugin called "ferox" that has some useful presets for this.

http://www.jeroenbreebaart.com/audio_vst.htm

Best free plugin EVER. You hit it right on the head... the "Analog Circuitry Sim" preset is exactly what I was looking for. I also put "Analog Phaser" on the bass along with some EQ (scooping out the mids) and I think I hit on the bass sound I want forever.

Ideally, one day I'll be comfortable with the science of compression enough to do it myself, but til then... I love these presets! I've opted not to post the song yet because the mix is still a disaster, but I'll have something soon for anyone who's curious. Thanks Rob!

Wow, great article on compression, RobA. Definitely I'd like to slow the decay to make it sound less tinkly. I'm going for a fat, lazy sound.

On the bass end, though, I'm worried about muddiness. I recorded the right & left hands on separate tracks, so maybe I'll do heavy compression on the RH, and for the LH... is there an effect that's the opposite of compression? Something to give it a percussive attack and fast decay?

Lots of experimentation in my future, I guess.

kinetic, great suggestion on the amp sim. I tried a "direct box" setting that has a nice subtle effect. I also tried a "tape sim 15ips heavy saturation" plugin which livens things up although I have no idea what it's doing (compression w/ eq maybe?).

I'm going to mess around today and I'll try to post a link so you guys can hear it in context. Then we'll tackle EQ  

Thanks!

Not to be confused with this great thread about how to record a Rhodes...
http://ep-forum.com/smf/index.php?topic=3125

My problem is that the Rhodes (Mk I Stage) has already been recorded direct. Just a plain old guitar cable from the Rhodes "input" into a 107kOhm input on my sound card. I'm now in need of some studio wizardry to spunk it up.

What kind of EQ, plugins, etc can you suggest to liven it up? I'm on a PC, using Cakewalk Sonar to mix. Suggestions anyone? (Also if you have links to some examples you've done, post em. That would help a lot)

The song is simple & laid back... just (male) vocal & Rhodes for most of it. At the end it kicks in with some heavy Bonham-esque drums and 4-part vocal arrangements, but there are no other melodic instruments other than the piano. So I need the piano to fill the mix as much as possible.

Thanks for the info R. What does it do, and is it absolutely necessary?

The reason I'm asking is because I'm getting some hum/buzz/noise problems and I've traced it to that contraption. Jiggling the wires makes the noise go away momentarily. If I can't "clean" it, I was considering ripping the whole thing out & just soldering the wires exactly as on my 73.

As far as I know, the tone bars themselves are practically indestructible. I have one that looks like it was run over by a truck a few times but the note still sounds good.

But tines definitely go bad. Lots of good advice & info here:
http://ep-forum.com/smf/index.php?topic=4380

General consensus is that tines go dead due to internal fractures, even though they may not actually break. I didn't know that. If the note sounds like a "thunk", and the tone bar is free of obstructions, then it's probably the tine, I'm guessing

*edit*
oh I just saw that you already swapped out the tines. In that case, ignore everything I ever said  :oops:

Well here's an experiment you could do if you have the time & patience... swap a bad tonebar+tine (say 45) with a good pair (say 55) and listen if it still sounds bad with a different pickup. If so, then it's gotta be the tonebar like you suspect.

Can someone tell me what this is? My 88 has it (1976) but my 73 doesn't (1975). Is it a user mod or is it a factory design?

Screenery - glad I could help!

coach - yeah it can be a little confusing, especially since they didn't label the values. Here's what I gather...



The number (-20 to +20) tells us how many cents flat or sharp we're supposed to tune each string. So for example you'd tune the lowest E about 13 cents flat.

Most guitar/bass tuners will show you how many cents flat/sharp you are, so there's no need to do the actual calculation in Hertz. But just in case your tuner goes by Hz, here's a chart for a "theoretically ideal piano"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_key_frequencies

Now go to it!

I found a great stretch tuning chart for the CP-70 on page 11 of the Users Guide
http://safemanuals.com/user-guide-instructions-owner-manual/YAMAHA/CP-70B-_E

I'm not a pro piano tuner, but using that chart + my trusty Fender RT1000 tuner, I tuned all 73 notes in under 2 hours. Really easy & it sounds Schaweeet. Good luck!

P.S. My general opinion of the CP-70... AMAZING. The action is better than the concert grands I've played. Fast scales & runs are smooth as butter, and trills are like leetle hummingbirds wings. Try doing that with a Rhodes!

The downside: weighs a ton. A TON. Not for gigging unless you've got a team of expendable roadies to do the back breaking for you. Also, good luck finding parts for the thing. There's a company in the Netherlands who will sell you a used hammer for $80. I'm not exaggerating.

Does anyone know where I can find parts for a Yamaha CP70B? Leg braces, feet, lids, hammers... anything. Unlike the Rhodes which has tons of parts stockpiled & reproduced, I can't find a single source for CP70 hardware! (aside from a sustain pedal on ebay)

*edit*

Someone just told me that Rhodes leg braces might work on a Yamaha. Can anyone confirm/deny this?

Thanks

Wow... price check or reality check?
CP-70B in good condition (albeit dusty as hell) just sold on eBay for $210

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230277780021

how depressing...

Interesting stuff. I've never seen (or heard) a broken/dead tine, so this is good to know. The reason why I was wondering about the bump mod is that I understand it raises the hammer closer to the tine. So I imagine if a real "slammer" plays it, the force of the hammer is potentially much more damaging because it has less distance to travel before hitting the target.

I generally don't play very hard. But you know how it is... when the soundman gives you a lousy monitor mix, you end up unconsciously playing harder just to hear yourself. You can easily go overboard without knowing it.

Another thing I've noticed is that the longer tines really vibrate with a wide displacement. I'm sure this puts a ton of stress on the "stem" of the tine. I'm guessing it would break there much sooner than at the hammer point.

I'm just wondering how hard it is to break a tine. Do they typically break due to hammering them hard (force of hit), or is it due to hitting them a lot (number of hits)? Or do they just break with age?

Does it depend on the tine length (example: shorter tines break sooner than longer tines)? Or maybe if your hammer tips have hardened?

And is there anything you can do to increase the lifespan of your tines, like rubbing them down with baby oil or something? (just kidding, but if it works...)

Sorry about all the questions. Me = noob.  

*EDIT*
One last question... does the "bump mod" increase the chances of breaking tines?

the factory was inconsistent about the serial numbers (inflating them arbitrarily to make it look like more were produced than in reality)

The lousy bums. Yes, that could throw things off entirely. Every estimate I've seen is based on the serial numbers (what else can you base it on?). For example, the 50,000 estimate for "Fender Rhodes" pianos is based on the beginning serial number of 50001 for the first "Rhodes" in '75. But if that serial number is arbitrary, who knows...

I guess one thing is for sure, all these estimates based on serial numbers couldn't be any lower than the actual number (i.e. it's not possible that 60,000 Fender Rhodes were made).

As for how many are in existence today... wow, there's a mystery for someone to solve. Judging by all the orphaned Rhodes parts I see on eBay, it seems like half the pianos have been chopped up by now. Then of course there are the dumpsters...  

Bjam, have you published your Rhodes data online somewhere? I think the world desperately needs to have some idea, backed by concrete research. Even the Wikipedia page doesn't mention production numbers at all.

Thanks gang! This job will be a lot easier now. It's my first Rhodes ever, and I was worried about screwing it up. With that in mind, I'm sort of glad that it's not too rare because now I can chop away with confidence

bjam, I hear what you're saying about the colour combinations... I've seen some real doozies. I'm sure someone out there thinks lime green, black & chocolate brown is a great mix... but if you can't find that person I bet you'll have a tough time reselling it.

There was one Mark I on eBay not long ago which had a ton of weird modifications... like separate outputs for treble & bass () and a few other things stuff cut into the namerail. It sold for a pretty low price.

Thanks Spaceduck. The local one listed is now gone, but I don't know what it sold for. Since I now own three pianos, I'm not really too likely to buy anything that isn't an absolute steal.

Me too. I've spent sleepless nights debating whether to drive down to Louisiana (1200 miles!), but then I remind myself that I already have 2 pianos. Unless I sprout a 3rd hand, I think I can be content with what I've got

But it's still fun to window shop

I've been watching CP70 prices for a few months. Ebay, craigslist, google searches, etc. It's absolutely confounding what I've seen.

Last week a CP70B sold in New York for $250
A week before that one went for $1600 (eBay)
Right now there's a guy in Louisiana asking $450

On craigslist most people are asking around $800 but no one seems to be buying.

My conclusion is that the CP70 is not as prized as we may think. Yes, as musicians we all appreciate how great it sounds, but to the rest of the world it's just another heavy piano taking up space. Even though (emotionally) I'd pay $1000 for one in good condition, logically I can't justify offering more than $500 in this buyer's market (USA, that is. Our friends overseas can expect to triple the prices I've mentioned).

Regardless, even if you do decide to buy it for $800, I'm sure you'll be happy with it!

I'm in the process of restoring a 1975 Mark I 73. A few pieces are missing such as corners, logo, glide feet and a tine. It's easy enough to find reproductions of these, but I was wondering if that would compromise the value of the piano. Should I try to find real vintage parts from 1975?

What do collectors prefer?

On a related note, I have to re-do the tolex, and I was considering some of the new tolex colours (like the "sparkle" varieties). But should I just stick with factory-standard black, for the sake of authenticity?

This is a really basic question, but I can't seem to find the answer anywhere (neither with a forum search nor a google web search). How many Rhodes pianos were made?

Even a ballpark figure would be nice. But if you could break it down to specific models & years of production, that would be perfect. The best info I've found is that approximately 50,000 Mark I pianos were made under the Fender brand (up to 1975), and approximately 2000 Mark V pianos were made.

Any info would help. Thanks.