Messages

Wow! That is so cool! It does seem to have a Fender Twin built in. Incidentally, those RCA tubes and JBL speakers are pretty coveted. Would love to see a video of you playing that thing!

Chris from Vintage Vibe (Quadrapuss) mentioned plans to create some additional tips with different shores, but I don't think they have been developed yet or if they still have plans to do so.

http://ep-forum.com/smf/index.php?topic=6295.msg30866#msg30866

I have a few keys in the middle that are tilted. I replaced the bushing felt and also replaced the balance rail cloth punchings and they're still a little tilted - and unevenly spaced :-( I guess the next most likely cause is bent (or leaning) balance rail pins, isn't it? Unfortunately, it's hard to tell if that's the case by looking.

The recommended method seems to be placing a board against the balance rail pin and tapping it with a hammer. One question: Where should the board be placed? At the top or bottom of the pin? Also, is that better than placing a nut driver over the pin and pushing it gently to the side. I'm terrified of breaking the pin. How great is the risk of that happening and how severe are the consequences? Maybe I'll try to live with the tilted keys.

Thanks.

Thanks, as always, Chris! I'll give it a try.

Goof Off did the trick.

Thanks for all of the suggestions. I wanted to start playing right away so I just decided to bring it into a tech and he fixed it and added the true effects loop, which also enabled me to use my pre-amp (including the vibrato) with the effects :-)

Yeah, I'm familiar with the wax. This is something else that appears to have been spilled. I'll try Rob's suggestion. Thanks, guys!

When replacing the grommets, I noticed that the wood on my harp has a sticky substance on it and I'm not sure what to use to clean in off without damaging the finish in any way or wiping away the stamp. I'm thinking of trying Pledge, Murphy's, or a furniture polish of some type. I was also considering Goo Gone or Windex if they don't do the trick. Any ideas? Thanks.

Any word on whether the tops for the new Vintage Vibe EPs will fit on a Wurlitzer? That would be way cool.

Monroe: Several of the bushing felts had fallen out in the treble section. It really does appear as though something was spilled on the keys a long time ago because the key frame and the keys in the treble section also had some water damage and needed to be sanded. Fortunately, most of the rust is at the base of the front rail pins where the punchings were. I have already re-done the key bushings. I just want to make sure my pins are nice and clean before I put in the new punchings and put the keys back in.

bumpy/steveo: I tried the dremel tool with a buffing wheel (512E), but it wasn't doing a very good job and I went through 2 of them pretty quickly. This time I used a more coarse buffing wheel and it worked quite well; much less grueling than trying to use the sandpaper with my fingers. The coarsest wheel worked the best and lasted the longest. I'm glad the balance rail pins are ok b/c it would be much more difficult to get the buffing wheel between those pins. The next step will be to use some Mother's/Flitz to polish and protect and then apply some lubricant.

I've also been wondering if it would be a bad idea to swap out the key frame with that of another piano, or if they're interchangeable? A friend of mine has one that he's been using for parts so I might be able to pull the key frame from that -not at this point after all that work, but maybe sometime in the future. Also, has anyone ever re-created a key frame? You could just place the old one on top of the new board and drill right through it to get the proper placement of the holes. It might be difficult though, since the surface slopes down for the black keys.

Thanks, again!

Well, the scotch-brite didn't do much, so I took some 220-grain sandpaper to it and that has been working pretty well. I sanded both the key frame and the pins themselves and they don't seem to have been damaged. Unfortunately, my fingers didn't fare so well. Trying to sand between those pins was difficult business. I probably could have done something more clever, like wrap the paper around a sponge brush or something.

If I was to do it again, I might take the pins out so that I could use a sanding block and soak the pins in some kind of solution. Can anyone comment on how much trouble it would be to remove and re-install the pins? Thanks.

After taking apart my Wurlitzer 200 over the weekend, I discovered that it has experienced a problem with moisture over the years (maybe a spilled beer?). The treble end had several loose keys due to bushing felts falling out, and after finally disassembling and pulling out the keys, I discovered a fair amount of rust on the pins. I'm wondering how to address this. I was thinking of just using a scotch-brite pad and then some McLube 444. I'm curious to know what others have used for this. Any tips? Would steel wool be appropriate for that if the scotch-brite doesn't do the trick?

Also, the wood has been slightly damaged from the moisture. Nothing serious - it's still pretty solid; just some discoloration. Should I take the time to remove the pins and sand it down - or even sand around the pins?

Thanks.

Follow up: I put some medium backrail cloth (.0185") next to what's currently there and it was a little thinner so I ordered some medium-thick (.215").

Also, would you recommend installing it, as many piano technicians do, by gluing only the front half of the felt so that some of it stays loose in the back, providing a softer landing and quieter action? It is currently glued completely in place and, if anything, there is some slight play at the front. I'm just wondering if it was done that way for a reason.

Finally, the cloth that I have is 1" wide, but the cloth that is there appears to be 3/4" wide. Will 1" cloth be ok? It's difficult to find cloth any narrower than that.

As always, thanks for sharing your knowledge!

Chris mentioned in another topic that you can get more snap out of a 200 model by reverse bending damper flange springs:

"Another trick of many to get more snap out of your action is to reverse bend your damper flange springs, they get worn and weak leaving the action compromised. If you note on later 200A pianos the Damper flange spring is much stiffer thus causing a snappier action than say an early 200 or a 140 series piano."

Does anyone know what the proper technique is to do that? Do you have to pull out each of the damper levers or can it be done with them installed? Thanks.

Chris: Thanks for your input. Reverse bending the damper flange springs is a great tip.

Steveo: I appreciate what you are saying about not taking on some of the more complicated repairs if you are inexperienced, as I am.

I think I'll wait for now. I'd like to see what lubricating and shrinking the action with the fast action remedy solution and reverse bending the damper flange springs will do first. I'm also anxious to see what difference reconditioning the hammers and installing the reed bar shield has made. I feel confident enough to take it apart later, if necessary.

Thanks, again, Steveo. I pulled out some of the whip assemblies and when I pull it back and release it, it bounces a little off of the other side, indicating that the spring has lost some of its strength - slightly more than shown at the beginning of this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwwPXFcMe6I&feature=related

Is that a sign that I need to replace them? The guys at VV recommend replacing them if you have your piano apart, but I don't know how common it is for people to actually undertake such a task. From Steveo's experience, it seems very rare. I wonder how often the guys at VV do it.

Also, I have the new jack felts, but am not sure if I should go ahead and replace those as well. They seem to be in pretty good condition, but I'm sure they have never been replaced. Is this a task that should be done as long as you have the piano apart? Seems like it wouldn't be as bad as replacing the jack springs, but maybe it's not worth it.

Thanks, Steveo!

I have my piano completely taken apart right now and am lubricating all of the joints in the whip assembly. I'm wondering if it's a good idea to lubricate the joints on the hammer assembly (for lack of a better term) as well. Will that make my action lighter? I'm not so sure I want that. I like to have a bit of heavier action so that it plays more like an acoustic piano.

As long as we're on the subject, what would replacing the jack springs accomplish? Would it make the action a little heavier? Return the key a little more quickly? How do you know when you need to replace them?

Hi everyone,
I just took my Wurlitzer 200 apart and noticed that my backrail cloth has hardened pretty significantly. I'm thinking of replacing it, but am wondering what thickness to use. Has anyone ever replaced it on a 200 and what thickness did you use?
Thanks!

It's a Moogerfooger MF-102. Do you think that if I install the "true effects loop kit", it will fix that issue, or is it just to allow the chain to work so that the pedals can be after the pre-amp in the chain?

Regarding the test: When I plug a cable into Accessory 1 only, I can still hear the piano with the vibrato. When I plug a cable into Accessory 2 only, I can also still hear the piano with the vibrato.

I think you might be right about there being a short or bad connection. I think I'm going to bring my pre-amp to a tech this week to look at it.

Thanks for all the help! I'm pretty clueless when it comes to this.

I found a few other posts from people saying that you need to change the electronics in order to do what I would like.
http://vintagevibe.forums-free.com/how-do-i-add-effects-to-a-suitcase-t1025.html

Here is a video on YouTube demonstrating how to create the effects loop:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68dM_6FU_Pc

I guess that's what this kit is: http://www.vintagevibe.com/p-470-suitcase-true-effects-loop-kit.aspx

My question is: Is this supposed to replace the electronics in the suitcase or do you have to drill holes for it?

Also, is it possible to use effects in any way without modifying the existing electronics? If not, why is it called an effects loop? If you can't use it for effects, what the heck is it for?? Very confusing.

Thanks for the information, Cormac. I actually tried connecting it the way you described; by running the top 1/4" jack (Output to Accessory) on the pre-amp through the "In" of my pedal (a ring modulator), and then returning it from the "Out" of the pedal to the bottom 1/4" jack (Input from Accessory) on the pre-amp. This is according to the diagram here: http://www.fenderrhodes.com/img/service/guides/suitcase-mark1/p2.jpg. The 4-pin power amp cable is also plugged in.

When I do that, the piano signal is fine, but when I turn on the pedal, I can barely hear the effect. When I turn the knobs of the ring mod, I can hear the frequency and rate changes, but it's barely audible, even though the level of the piano is still fine. Not only that, the quiet sound of the ring mod is constantly coming through the cabinet, not just when I play the piano. Any idea why that would happen if I have the path correct? I know the pedal is ok because I used it with a guitar.

Regarding what you said about the pre-amp, I saw that VV sells a "True Effects Loop Kit": http://www.vintagevibe.com/p-470-suitcase-true-effects-loop-kit.aspx. Here is the description: "Rhodes had what are called accessories jacks one open one closed, this way you could tap off your harp and bypass the pre amp, but you lost all controls on your pre amp when doing this. You can use this with effects, but it is not a true effects loop."

Is it true that the 1/4" jacks on the pre-amp go directly to harp and bypass the pre-amp so you lose your pre-amp controls? I really want to keep them. Do I really have to mod my suitcase pre-amp in order to keep my pre-amp controls when I use effects pedals or does my particular model not need it? Does it just mean that the kit allows you to use the vibrato/tone controls before the effects chain, but you can still use it after the chain?

Thanks!

Hi, everyone. I have some effects pedals that I would like to use, but I can't figure out how to connect them. This is a '75 Mark I and has the 4-pin and 2 quarter-inch jacks on the piano. The amp/cabinet has "External", "Amplifiers", and "Stereo/Phones" jacks. Can someone please explain how I should connect my pedals and what the other jacks are for? Are they ins/outs? In what situations would I use them? Ideally, I would still be able to use the tone and tremolo controls on the pre-amp. Please don't direct me to the manual because I looked there and couldn't figure it out from that (at least not the one that's posted on the site). Thanks!

Flight cases can be made custom, but we are DEFINITELY looking into a soft case as well.

This is interesting. I have been wanting a flight case for my Wurlitzer, but I'm not satisfied with the options I've seen. Do you guys have one designed for them? I bet there would be a lot of interest.

bumpyrhode is right. Be very careful when using the "key bushing tool". You can damage your keys with it if you're not careful. Most experienced piano techs would advise you against using it. They would instead use key easing pliers (or a soldering iron with easing bits). However, these tools might cost more than you'd like to spend. It's fine to use the key bushing tool as a cheap solution to ease the keys if that's what you're looking for. Just be careful. Be gentle and don't force it in too hard or the keys may crack/split. I would never whack any of my keys with the other end of that thing.

You could also try turning the front pins to reduce the side-to-side movement. The pins are oblong for that reason. If you decide to go this route, you can use needle-nose pliers with the jaws covered with electrical tape. Make sure you grab the pin at the base below the cloth & paper punchings. Ideally, you would buy an offset key spacer for that. Personally, I would suggest replacing the felt if it's too loose. I don't mind re-felting the bushings, though. It's a big job and many people dislike it, but can be done well and without too much trouble with the right tools. I wouldn't do it with the clamps that come with the kit that Vintage Vibe sells because I found them very difficult to use, but I'm sure they would work fine for most people. I prefer to use cauls instead of the clamps.

For lubricating the pins, I would use a dry teflon spray lube (be careful when spraying), or Slide-All or McLube.

I discovered that the "scraping" sound (rubbing of felt on wood) remained somewhat after moving the felt to the pedestals. I left a few on the hammers and it was definitely louder with the felt on the hammers - makes sense, since the wood pedestals are not as smooth as the plastic hammers. I tried to put some McLube, silicone spray, and teflon powder on a few of the felts after they were on the pedestals to compare and it didn't seem to make a difference. Maybe I didn't put enough on, though.

I would also say that the action is just *slightly* heavier with the felt on the hammer, probably due to the increased friction of the felt against the wood vs felt against plastic. It wasn't really noticeable on just a few keys, but might be more noticeable when playing the full keyboard with them on the hammers.

In summary, I think the rubbing sound might be a normal thing and maybe is not noticeable with the cover on and the amp turned up. Initially, I thought it might not be normal b/c my suitcase is pretty much totally silent, even with the cover off (it has the bump mod and a healthy dose of what appears to be graphite on the pedestal felts).

It was really hard to pick it out of the mix :-( At least it looked cool, though.

Fred, I've been checking the epc site and haven't seen much more info about it yet. Any idea when we can learn more about it? I'm seriously contemplating buying one.

BumpyRhode: The VV tips don't have colors. They are just named as such, presumably to match how they were painted when they were originally produced, or at least as a better way to distinguish them from one another and help to determine where to install them.

Steveo: I know that when placed on the hammer, the highest point is toward you (meaning it slopes down away from you), but the tips are shaped in a way that you can place it in a few different ways and still have it slope down away from you. Should the smallest surface of the tip always be at the top? If so, the red tips are shaped in a way that leaves some of the platform of the hammer bare. Maybe that's ok, but it doesn't look right to me for some reason. I guess I was expecting the tip to cover the entire platform of the hammer like it does on the others. Thanks.

Hi everyone.

I was just installing the hammer tips from VV and was wondering which way they should face - particularly, the red ones for the bass section.

In the youtube video on this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUNQZuBX8Sk), Chris explains that the "crown" should face up and it should slope down away from the front of the piano. I believe that means that the "crown" is the side with the smallest surface and should always be at the top. However, the red tips are narrower than the others, so they don't cover the entire platform of the hammer when placed with the smallest surface at the top. If I place them so that they cover the entire platform, they don't come up as high as the others and the surface of the hammer tip that comes into contact with the tine is much larger. Perhaps that's by design, since I read that the escapement should be larger in the bass end.

My questions are:
1. Should the side of the hammer tips with the smallest surface always be at the top?
2. Should the red tips be installed so that they cover the entire platform of the hammer?

Hope that makes sense.

Thanks.

After struggling with this for a few days, I have an update:

So.. when I started, my pedestals and hammer felts were a gray color. As I mentioned, the key bed was pretty dirty when I removed the keys. I also saw some signs of graphite, so I think some of the color change was due to that. I started by sanding the pedestals with 600 grain sandpaper. This didn't return it all the way to the natural wood color, but it did remove much of the gray color and got them to be quite smooth. I put the keys back in and the rubbing sound remained, although it was a little better.

I thought that the sound must be due to the felts because the pedestals were now very smooth, so I decided to replace the felts on the hammers. I started by removing all of the felts from the hammers. What a tedious job! It took me several hours to get all of that glue off using naphtha and a rag, as Fred suggested (as well as *a lot* of elbow grease), but I finally got the hammers free of all traces of the glue. I then put the new felt on the hammers and installed them back in the piano. The rubbing sound was still there!!

I then figured it had to be the pedestals, so I moved all of the felts from the hammers to the pedestals. Fortunately, the felts weren't on the hammers very long so the glue hadn't set completely and peeled right off. After moving them to the pedestals, the rubbing sound did noticeably lessen, but it's still there to some degree. The only thing left that I can do is put some kind of lubrication on the felts. I'm thinking of using either silicone spray, graphite, or teflon powder. (I know that won't make Rob Coops very happy, but maybe it's better to put the teflon on the pedestal felt rather than the hammer felt because it won't make contact with the wood?) I might try about 3 keys with each and see what the effects are.

I left a few of the felts on the hammers so that I could compare the two. I have to say that I didn't really notice much of a difference in the action between having them on the hammer vs the pedestal (other than the sound). Maybe it's just too hard to tell with only a few keys, or maybe it's just a very subtle difference. I also might try putting the bump on a few and let everyone know my impression of the change that it makes. However, I'm afraid I won't be able to remove the felts again and retain the adhesiveness. If the adhesive on the felts loses it's stickiness, what kind of glue should I use to reattach it to the pedestal? I was thinking I would just use tacky glue.

Anyway, I just wanted to share my results with everyone. Hope this helps you, Swenz.

Thanks for your help, everyone.

Thanks, Fred & Swang! That's exactly the information I was looking for.

It would be great if someone from Vintage Vibe could provide some insight on this. I'd post to their forum but they seem to have stopped posting there the last few months - probably busy building their new pianos :-)

Yeah, sorry. I am curious about what the effects of the miracle mod are (especially how much it lightens the action), but I didn't mean to turn this into a "Miracle Mod" thread. I know there are already some pretty lengthy threads on that topic.

I guess I'm more concerned with whether there's a difference in the action when putting the felt on the hammer vs the pedestal. The quote about the felt wearing out more quickly on the hammer makes me think that there might be a little more resistance and slightly heavier action, which I actually prefer.

If the mod lightens the action significantly and there's no difference in the action when putting the felt on the pedestal, I'd prefer to put it there because I wouldn't have to worry about the felt not being aligned and hammers resting unevenly and messing with the escapement.

Rob: Your felts look brand new compared to mine. Mine are very dirty. Even the pedestals are a little black on mine. I did clean out a lot of dirt, dust bunnies, etc. when I cleaned the key bed. I think I might try using a very high grain sandpaper on the pedestals and giving the felts one more good cleaning, but I'm really thinking I will end up replacing them.

Here's the video describing how to install the Miracle Mod on a 76 piano:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UVcRvnolQQ

In this case, they left the felt on the hammer because it was in good condition. If the felt is not in good condition (as mine is), I wonder if it's worth the trouble of re-installing it back on the hammer, rather than putting it on the pedestal. My reasoning for doing so is that I could put the bump on the bare pedestal and see whether I like the difference the miracle mod makes, and be able to remove it without removing the felt.

However, I'm concerned that it will make the action too light. If it's going to make it much lighter, maybe I'll just put it on the pedestal without the bump. Can anyone speak to the difference in the action when putting the felt on the hammer vs the pedestal?

Good info. Thanks. I also found this video by the folks at Vintage Vibe that discusses this to some extent:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-Z3zoIesYU&NR=1

However, they don't mention whether you should apply the felt to the hammer or the pedestal when replacing all of the felts or if you can use the red felt on the hammer cams. They were just re-attaching the white felt to the hammer cam in this case b/c it was still in good condition.

I might try the silcone spray, but is that any better than using teflon?

A) I thought it causes the felts to fall off. Maybe you just have to use it judiciously?

B) Will that also get into the wood of the pedestal and make it difficult to apply felt to (which I may end up having to do)?

I also have McLube 444, Protek CLP, and TFL-50 (dry). Not sure if using any of those is wise in this case.

Whatever I end up doing, I'll definitely share my results.

Thanks. I actually did have the name rail removed and the felt is definitely there. I looked at the felt and it's dirty, but I touched it with my finger and it feels pretty smooth. I should also mention that the action was stiffer and the noise was more pronounced before cleaning out a lot of debris from the key bed, but the action is still somewhat noisy. I probably should have described it as a brushing sound, not a scraping sound. It sounds like felt against wood. I thought that maybe that would occur when the felt is old and worn out.

It really seems to me like it's the felt on the hammer, but I just wanted to see if anyone here experienced this problem and if replacing the felt was effective. Also, does anyone know if the red felt from VV can be applied to the hammer instead of the pedestal? Would the action change much if I put it on the pedestal instead of the hammer. I know some people find the action with the felt on the hammer very desirable.

Hi everyone.

I have a 1976 Stage with bare pedestals and white felt on plastic hammers. When I press some of the keys down, I hear a scraping sound and there is a little more resistance than other keys. It's happening for most of the keys, although seems to be a little more so in the  mid-range.

At first, I thought it was the bushings, but I lifted the hammer up and moved the key up and down and the sound was gone. Therefore, it has to be the way the hammer is contacting the pedestal. Is this a common symptom of needing to replace the felts? How do you know when the hammer felt needs to be replaced?

I tried cleaning the felt with a toothbrush and it actually did seem to help a little, but the scraping sound is still there. I'm guessing I need to replace the felt, but I didn't see any of the white hammer felt on Vintage Vibe's web site; just the red pedestal felt for $28. Are most people just putting new felt on the pedestal now, rather than putting it back on the hammer?

Also, I have some teflon powder and was toying with the idea of brushing some on the hammer felt with a toothbrush. Is that a bad idea? I thought I read a post before where someone was pleading with users on the forum not to use teflon there because it gets into the wood of the pedestals and makes it impossible to get something to stick to it later on.

Thanks.

Thanks. I contacted 3M and they said they didn't know of a better product to use. So... I guess I'll stick with the 3M 8001 weatherstripping adhesive for the hybrid hammers and cyanoacrylate for the plastic ones. Although, I saw a YouTube video where Chris from VV was using cyanoacrylate on hybrid hammers. I wonder if there's a reason why he doesn't use the weatherstripping adhesive.

Does anyone know what type of plastic the post-1975 hammers are made of? I'm looking to see if I can find a better adhesive than super glue (cyanoacrylate) for the hammer tips. I don't really like working with super glue and although the 3M 8001 works great for the wood hammers, I have a feeling the factory stopped using it when they switched to plastic hammers. I called 3M to see what they suggested and they said they needed to know what type of plastic the hammers are made of.

Well, the sound didn't disappoint. And that guy looked like he was really having a ball playing it. I doubt you'd see anyone enjoying playing a Nord that much. I would still like to see a video of the action, but of course there's no substitute for actually getting your hands on one.

Very cool, Fred - especially if you can customize the range of the 44-keys for individual preference. Have fun at NAMM!

I never remember to use gloves :-) Is it ok to use the Mother's on the pickups as well?

I usually use the dremel tool with a brass brush for that, but I've ruined a few pickups that way (although 2 or 3 out of 73 ain't bad).

Thanks, Fred! One more question. Do you just use your fingers to pinch the tine with the scotch brite/ sandpaper and rub off the corrosion? I don't know about you, but my hands tire and my fingers get raw awfully quickly when trying to do it that way. That's why I switched to the dremel tool with the abrasive buff, but I think that doing it by hand with the scotch brite does a better job. Maybe you just need to let the Mother's do most of the work if the corrosion isn't that bad?

I'd prefer not to use kerosene, unless people feel strongly that it's the best method. I used a dremel tool with finishing abrasive buffs. I went through about 4 of them to do all 73 tines. It worked great, but it was hard to get in near the base of the tine. I used a scotch brite pad to get in there. It was tedious work, but I was replacing the grommets anyway.

Regarding protecting them afterward: someone mentioned WD-40, but I'm afraid that will leave a sticky film. Not sure about the CRC silicone spray. I have something called "DuPont Teflon Multi-Use Dry, Wax Lubricant". Anyone have a comment on whether it would be good idea to use that? I certainly don't want to use anything that will compromise the tone in any way.

In the photos of some of the restored pianos by Vintage Vibe, the tines look brand new. Chris/Fred: can you enlighten us on what you do to them?

I did want to know, as I'm sure others did as well, so thanks for posting it. The "you're killing us" comment was just a playful remark directed at Chris and Fred to get some more information about the new pianos. I am anxious to know more about it, but I can wait. A live feed would be fun, though :-)

Excellent! I may actually be able to get one if I sell my other pianos. I seriously had trouble sleeping last night, thinking about what configuration I want :-)

I'm curious. Does the VV piano have all new parts (keys, tines, tone bars, pickups, etc.)? I'd love to know more about what those are like. Can the tone be adjusted by moving the tine & pickup, like a Rhodes?

I'm also really anxious to know what the action is like. I'm concerned that it might be too light, like a Nord Electro, which is too much like an organ action for me. Do we have to wait until NAMM to see photos of the inside and videos of this thing in action? You're killing us.

The only problem I've had with the Vintage Vibe kit is that there seemed to be some inconsistency with the sizes of the screws and washers. Some of the washers go all the way to the head of the screw with no problem, while others don't reach it, even after screwing it back into the harp. The head will stick up above the washer when it's screwed in. It wasn't a big deal, because I just used some of the old washers, since they were still in good condition. Has anyone else experienced this?

Thanks, guys. That's helpful. I might try the idea of getting a veneer and cutting it with a utility knife for the 1/32" shims.