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Sunrunner,

I must say, your harp cover paint job looks terrific in the pics!

I am curious to hear how it has held up over time.

I am presently restoring a 1973 Stage Model. I haven't begun to think about the harp cover yet - as there are bigger fish to fry. I'm just getting the actual piano bits back together for set up.

I installed a complete referb kit from Vintage Vibe and did other normal restoration things (like restore key caps, harp frame, etc.). I can't wait to get the action fully set up. I am excited to hear how she is going to sound.

Then I'll move on to the case. Mine needs to be completely rebuilt. Not really looking forward to that - other than as a step required to fully restore the Rhodes.

I'm hoping I won't need to do much more than heavy cleaning on my harp cover - but so far, most everything has been a bigger job than I anticipated.

-Paul

Both of mine had factory-style black shims.  Ben, you may be on to something when you mention the possibility that they may have wanted to avoid issues that come with tighter tolerances. And it's time-consuming (read: "expensive") to do a lot of adjustments on the assembly line to optimize the "playability."

Alan

Alan - I agree. I think Ben is on to something.

Surprising though. With my escapement set as high as it was. You could play it. But you certainly could not play it softly.

With my escapement corrected, it feels and sounds right to me. Of course, the "miracle mod" makes a huge difference in feel - but in a mostly unrelated way.

I guess the good folks at CBS were willing to sacrifice a lot in order to minimize setup time. On second thought, maybe that shouldn't be such a surprise.

-Paul

In recent years, I've owned two Rhodes pianos from the '73-'74 era.  Both had 3 or so shims on the bass side, and needed to lose most/all  of them to play well. I guess I assumed they came that way from the factory, even though that era is reputed to have had pretty good factory setups. 

Do you think Rhodes was shipping them like this?  Or is this more likely something that players/techs did?

Alan

Alan,

This is the only one that I have had or seen - but it had 3 black wood shims on the bass side and one on the treble side.

So, it sounds to me like a factory thing - or something that came to be very common practice. Either way - seems odd to me, because there is no reasonable way to have these in good adjustment (anywhere in spec) with the shims in place. At least not on my 1973-73.

Of course - everyone else on this forum is more qualified to comment. - Let's see what they say...

-Paul
-Paul

...Sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

So True.

-Paul

...Only thing I notice is that the left harp support block (that the harp sits on) has a number of black shims on it.  Usually in that vintage, there may be one (like on the right block), or none at all.  When you put the piano back together, you'll definitely want to measure the escapement in the bass register.  My initial thought is you won't be able to play soft notes down there, and the action may be heavy.

Ben, you were right on. The escapement was way out on the bass end - and pretty far out on the treble side.

With all shims removed, the bass end is in spec.

I had to take about 3mm of the treble end support in addition to the shim that was on it.

I don't understand why someone would have added that much shim to something that didn't need any?

-Paul

Well Done adcbicycle!

Fishing reals come to mind when you mention tension and distribution. Maybe that can provide you with some inspiration for parts, design, ideas.

-Paul

Well, it turned out to be easier than I thought.

I followed the procedure I described above.

1) Placed the head in a smooth-jaw vise
2) use x-acto blade knife to carefully cut along joint/seam
3) then tighten crescent wrench to the plastic stem and apply twisting force.

I started slowly but was easily able to rotate the head through 15-20 degrees of rotation. At first I was thinking that I would take it off (and then reattach), but then realized that I could simply re-glue in a corrected position.

Much less trouble than I was expecting. Happy that I won't have to replace the hammer.

Many thanks David - that diagram that you posted was key.

-Paul

I bought replacements from ebay for a much more reasonable price.

At the time, I came to the conclusion that not all hybrid hammers were super-brittle. The set I replaced were but the set I replaced them with weren't.
http://ep-forum.com/smf/index.php?topic=8258.0

Perhaps there were some variations in the chemistry during production - or variations in environment since (that's a certainty).

I don't have any indication that the plastic parts of my hammers are brittle. But I'll find out more trying to fix the one (worst) hammer.

I'd be okay with replacing one - just not a whole set.

I'll let you know how I make out.

Again - the diagram that you shared is invaluable to the attempt.

-Paul

Many of those early hammers are extremely brittle. Not all, but many. I've replaced an entire set before because I didn't trust the originals to hold up and I'll bet that's why Vintage Vibe replaced all hammers on a restoration they recently posted to Facebook.
https://www.facebook.com/vintagevibeepc/posts/10154499739223435

YIKES!

Replacing all of the hammers isn't going happen in my case. That's $440 for a set (w/out bridle straps) of the new all-plastic repros from VV. I have more than that in the restoration so far, but I'm not going to spend an unlimited amount of money to finish the job.

If it actually needs to be done, then I guess I will have just gotten the old piano "close" to restored.

I'll see how she goes.

-Paul

Here's what you're dealing with.


Seems like a risky undertaking to me.

When I'm presented with a misaligned hammer, I usually try to resolve the issue by swapping hammers around.

David,

THANK YOU!

That's what I was wondering. If there was something about the attachment that I couldn't see.

This diagram is exactly what I needed.

So, it looks like I could probably work on the joint edges (with x-acto). Then grasp all of the head in a vise, then grasp the sides of the arm (at the joint) - and apply a twisting force to break the joint loose.

Worst case scenario is that I'd have to replace the hammer. But VV has them available (original as well as revised repro). So, not a huge down side risk.

Has anyone ever attempted this?

I see that VV has a video on bending the all-plastic hammers on purpose (thanks adcbicycle). So, I may want to check where that hammer is going to hit before I straighten it out.

I just assumed that you would want all of the hammer heads to straight from tip to tail (no yaw). But apparently, that's not always true.

Things seem to always be more complicated than they first appear.

-Paul

adcbicycle,

I hope I never have to rewind a pickup - but I think it's fairly common.

I would like to see some pics of what you have done though. And if I did have to rewind one, I'd probably be very interested in one of your jigs.

-Paul

All,

So - the restoration of the 1973 Stage 73 is coming along. Thanks to all that have been very generous with their time and help.

I finished prepping the hammers for new tips last night and I noticed there are a couple of hammers which have the head affixed at an angle.

It's a 1973, so it has the plastic arms with wooden heads.

My question is, can the head be safely separated from the arm in order to straighten this out? It appears to be a simple butt joint - probably glued with a cynoacrylate type adhesive. But I don't know if there is anything hidden that I can't see.

I also don't know if there is any procedure for separating (and then rejoining) the two.?.?

I'm sure I could leave them as-is. But if it's "correctable", I'd rather make it a bit more right.

Thanks again.

-Paul

...When I work on my Rhodes, I try always to think of myself as a caretaker and not an owner--these pianos will never by made again, and it's nice to think that mine, at some point, will go to a new owner and not the trash.

New caretaker! 

...When I work on my Rhodes, I try always to think of myself as a caretaker and not an owner--these pianos will never by made again, and it's nice to think that mine, at some point, will go to a new owner and not the trash.

Amen.

I think the same way about most vintage/historical items. It gives me a great deal of satisfaction to restore things so that they may by enjoyed by the next generation.

BTW - I decided to replace the damper arms with the revised design from Vintage Vibe. I decided that it would be worth the cost to reduce potential problems with proper function. Plus, if you replace the damper arms - you don't have to clean the old ones, or remove the old damper felts. 

Here is a pic of the damper arms being separated from the bridle straps and the hammers being prepped for new tips...


And I thought building a new case was going to be all of the work. 

-Paul

Make sure the bridle straps are tight within the slot of the hammer.

CAREFULLY apply thin super glue carefully to the rounded interior of the slot in the hammer. Remember, the super glue provides a mechanical connection as well as an adhesive connection. Once the glue dries, it's shape simply cannot be pulled through the slot without breaking (glue or hammer) apart.

Be careful not to apply to much! you don't want excess glue dripping all over the place, like the flange or pedestal in particular. You also don't want excess glue wicking up the bridle strap, making it stiff.

Thanks Fred!

I may be affiliated with VV, but I can objectively respond to this as I am not compensated in any way for Damper Arm Sales...

Thanks Fred.

So it sounds like wholesale replacement of the bridle straps is not necessary. I'm glad to hear that, because the replacement process looks quite time consuming (if doing all 73). And this restoration has already proven to be very time consuming.

Good idea to get a few though, just in case any are damaged when separating from the original damper arms.

How would you suggest "re-gluing" original straps that don't require replacement?

Thanks again,
-Paul

All,

I am restoring a 1973 Rhodes and am considering replacing the damper arms (with revised design from Vintage Vibe) and bridle straps.

Both bridle straps and damper arms appear to be fine - but I have seen videos where people have quite a bit of trouble with getting the dampers to function correctly. And I'd rather replace the damper arms than have a lot of trouble with the originals. I just don't have a sense of how likely it is to have problems getting original damper arms to function. If it's unlikely that I will have problems, then I'd continue with the originals. If you think it's likely that I will have trouble getting the original damper arms to function - then I'd opt for the revised design from Vintage Vibe.

As I will be installing new damper felts, I want to decide before doing that.

The bridle straps look good - but perhaps it also makes sense to replace those when refurbishing (regardless of appearance)?

Would like to know what you experienced restorers think.

Thanks!

-Paul

...Rit's Apple Green dye will make those straps look original.

I'm sure you could get even closer if you did more experimenting with ratios.

David - Great idea!. I think your color is very close to what it should have been new. Regardless, looks perfect in a complete set by themselves.

-Paul

...Although I don't replace the glue at the bridle strap hooks (I think it's unnecessary), I do replace the bead that runs just above the mounting screws.

David,

Thanks again! The heat gun worked like a charm. Now I can access the space normally cover by the damper arms for a thorough cleaning. As well as removing individual hammers for the same.

Now a follow-up question. What sort of adhesive would be appropriate to replace the bead along the damper arm mounting screws?

Thanks!
-Paul

I use a heat gun to soften the glue then use an awl to push the bridle strap tabs off their hooks from above. Gotta be careful not to break the hooks...

David,

Thanks for the info and suggestion!

-Paul

All,

I'm sure this is very basic - but I don't want to do any damage "learning" the correct way.

I want to remove the dampers (arms, not just the felts) from my 1973 Stage model. I removed the damper release bar and removed one of the damper mounting screws. I believe that is all that is required. However, the damper arm did not want to separate from the action. It appears that all of the damper arms have some kind of adhesive applied on the damper mounting screws and also where the bridal straps attach.

I don't want to destroy the damper arms in the process of removing them. Is there a special or preferred process to remove the damper arms once the mounting screw has been removed?

Thanks,
-Paul

David - regarding the filler.

Is the white a good match - or do you use transparent?

-P.

...Here's a story about a particularly extensive repair on a cabinet of the same vintage as yours.
http://www.shadetreekeys.com/2011/12/04/case-preparation-32766/

If you're going to build a new one, it looks like you should be able to take measurements from your old one. But if you're interested, I did a model of a cabinet like that in SketchUp. Each of the constituent parts can be pulled apart and dimensioned virtually.



For gouges in keytops, I use Rex-Lith Polyester Filler.

Wow - David. Thank you so much!

I'm not familiar with SketchUp but I will look in to it - as it may be very helpful to use as a reference.

It might be possible to save some of the existing cabinetry, but I feel it will be easier for me to build all new. I also think that the result will be more sound.

Also - thanks for the tip on the polyester fill for the key cap. That sounds like something I should be able to use.

-P.

So, I have just been working on cleaning things up, while waiting for my referb parts (from Vintage Vibe) to arrive. They would be here, except for the two feet of snow that fell on the east coast early this week. 

I have been cleaning pickups, tone-bars, blocks, tines. Prepping the harp frame and brackets for paint (would rather plate, but weighing convenience, cost, and benefit, I decided paining was my choice). Also cleaning up and repairing some key caps.

Judging by the number of cigarette burns and the condition of the case, I think this piano led a full working life before it met me. 

But as you guys know - you can do a LOT to save the keys without having to replace. I will be able to have all of mine looking better than new - except for this one...



This was by far the worst damage. Though here (about 95% done) you can see that the remaining damage won't be that distracting - and will pay tribute to it's once hard life.

I'm sure a good piano tech could fill this and make it like new, but I'm happy with leveling out the high spots (it was LARGE) and getting all of the discoloration out. And since the damage is so far up the key, I don't think it will be much of a distraction while playing. But I'm a guitar player, what do you guys think?

-P.

You sure got lucky there I would have expected the metal key pins to be corroded as well, but the piano looks clean in comparison to that case.

Only thing I notice is that the left harp support block (that the harp sits on) has a number of black shims on it.  Usually in that vintage, there may be one (like on the right block), or none at all.  When you put the piano back together, you'll definitely want to measure the escapement in the bass register.  My initial thought is you won't be able to play soft notes down there, and the action may be heavy.

Ben,

Thank you for mentioning that. That sort of set-up and adjustment stuff is where I will likely need the most help. But It will be a little while before I get that far.

First I need to complete the basic refurbishment. I ordered the complete referb kit from Vintage Vibe plus the missing tines, key shims, and tone-bar spring kit. Also ordered replacement repro cheek blocks - as the ones on mine are very badly burned from cigarettes.

I haven't started on the case yet - other than disassembly and assessment. I may stick with the piano referb until I get that mostly complete before I actually start on the case.

Again, many thanks for your comments and observations!

-Paul 

So, Here are a couple of pics of some of the wood interior. Will post more later - but wanted to get a couple posted this eveing as promised (though later than I intended)

Here is the lowest key on the 73. #8. It has an interesting (to me) date stamp and probably inspection stamp that the other keys do not have...



And here are a couple of pics of the "base frame" (not sure what the proper term is). It has been vacuumed up, but not really cleaned here. But all of the wood looks as clean as the key.





-Paul

Just a question, but before getting into the case rebuild on this piano - how are the wood keys and the wood internal frame of the piano?  The piano itself is its own modular unit - removed from the case it has its own wooden frame, housing a wooden action rail and wooden keys.  Your era has a lot of wood inside.

I would remove the name rail that goes across the keys, and pull a few keys out in different sections.  Check to see that the sides of them aren't laden with mold.

Ben,

Thanks for asking. I really appreciate all of the help.

I have most everything disassembled and no mold visible on any of the piano bits. I'll post some pics later (after work).

As you can see by the pictures of the case, it clearly suffered water damage - and there is mold in some of that wood. But mostly what would be the "bottom". It must have been sitting someplace where it got wet with some frequency - or stayed wet for some time. Hence the mold. However, it hasn't been wet in the years that I have have owned it. Thankfully, the mold seems limited to the case.

I'll post pics of the internals so everyone can have a look.

Thanks again!
-Paul

You're right about that:)
You did a great job on the Vox, so the rhodes case won't be a problem!

Thanks RhodesJuzz.

The Vox turned out great. But (almost) all of the work I did on it was on the inside. I can't take too much credit for that beautiful cabinetry. That came from North Cost Music.

I replaced all of the the electrolytic capacitors, cleaned pots and switches (standard service), and tweaked some resistor values that were causing a transistor biasing problem in the mixer/limiter section of the pre-amp. That was the super-tricky part. As I am not an amp tech. I am a software engineer.  But I do build vacuum tube guitar amps as a hobby and have done some other EE type work.

That Super Beatle is an amp that I gigged around the Detroit area back in the early 80s. I'm planing to use the Super Beatle with the Rhodes.

I should do okay with the Rhodes case though (I think).

-Paul

I know ep-service in the Netherlands produced a few. I have seen 1 or 2 standing there in a corner. Might be interesting enough t inform?!
Good luck

--Roy

Roy,

Thanks. I'm a little surprised that someone isn't making them here - given the popularity of the pianos.

I recently restored (re-capped and other repairs) a 1967 Vox Super Beatle - and found a company (North Coast Music) that is reproducing the original enclosures. Not only for the amp heads, but also for the large speaker cabinets. 

I'm sure the Rhodes Stage is more popular with greater numbers than those old solid state Beatle amps. But maybe the Stage cases don't generally deteriorate as badly as the one I have.

Looks like I will be building a new case from scratch. Which is okay - that's what I was figuring before I got started. But I'd rather spend time working on the actual piano parts.

Here is the finished Super Beatle...

Certainly looks like it has been sitting on its back in water.
So you are right about a case rebuild - in particular this wood looks like it has grown some mould. Once this occurs it is nearly impossible to kill the spores, so the case will always smell mildewy.
You need to be sure you don't use any of the old wood that is affected - it will contaminate your new case.

David

Thanks David.

Won't be hard to not use any of the old - as it's in such poor condition.

Any idea if there are any commercially manufactured cases that a Stage 73 will drop in to? Or anyone that repros the original style cases?

-Paul

Okay - so, the piano is a late '73 (week 42).

Let me see if I can insert some pics...











The lid / top is really falling apart - and the base / bottom isn't any better. I like the idea of just repairing (vs scratch build). But I don't think any of this wood is up to the challenge.

-Paul

Hey, welcome to the forum. If there is a way for you to show us pictures of the cabinet damage, we should be able to point you in the right direction. I agree that you likely do not have to replace the whole cabinet unless it has severe water damage.

Be prepared, it sounds like you will have quite a (fun) challenge ahead. It can get expensive too, so don't just start buying parts unless you are positive that you need them.
I recommend getting all new grommets, and of course the missing tines. After that, you will find things as you go that you will need to replace.

PianoTuner Steveo,

Thanks very much!

Yes, I will post some pics of the cabinet damage. I just started disassembly, and pulling the tolex off of the lid, I can see why things were so "sloppy". Wood appears to have suffered some extensive water damage. Thus the structure of the wood seems to be pretty well shot.

None the less, I'll be happy to post pics.

As poor as the case is, I don't think the piano is too bad. But I'm sure there will be more there than I can see.

Will post case pics later (probably sometime today).

-Paul

Try this article.

http://ep-forum.com/smf/index.php?topic=5136.0

It is not usually necessary to build a new case from scratch - even extensive repairs to an existing case can be hidden by re-tolexing and black stain.

David

David - thank you for the link!

Fair point about not necessarily needing everything new from scratch.

I will have to see what I think about the integrity of everything after I get a chance to disassemble to that point. I just want everything to be good and solid when I'm finished.

-Paul

Hello to all.

I am new to The Electronic Piano Forum - and this is my first post.

I came to own an old "Stage" model several years ago. It is basically functioning (at least it was the last time I plugged it in). It just has several tines missing and the "case/enclosure" is shot. It's also missing the legs and sustain pedal assembly, but those seem easy enough to replace.

Anyway - I finally have the urge to restore this old classic to very good/excellent condition and I figure the folks on this forum are likely to be some of the best resources that I could possibly find.

The first thing I want to attack is building a new case/enclosure. I assume that's relatively straight forward and fairly common. But I haven't found many references by way of Google.

Anyone know of any good links with information regarding this task? Is it so straight forward that no one has felt the need to document/post? Or perhaps I just haven't managed to find the right search terms.?.?

Anyway - looking forward to participating in the community for the next few months - and getting to know some of you.

Kind Regards,
-Paul