Restoring a 1978 Stage Mk1 73- A few questions

[ianmgull]

I recently came upon a 1978 Mk1 Stage 73 in somewhat beat up condition. I've watched all the vintage vibe videos and have a decent idea of what I'm going to have to do to get things back in working order. I have a few questions though.

I know most of the repairs can be DIY'd. I'm no stranger to building/modding instruments and effects but this will be my first time working on a keyboard/piano of any kind. I know people sometimes say it's best to let a professional handle key and action problems. What specific parts are people referring to?

I'm willing to hire a professional to get the keys set and then handle the harp and electronics stuff myself. Unfortunately there aren't any rhodes techs in my area (Cincinnati, Oh). So....

1) Would you guys trust an acoustic piano tech to set the action? I talked to a guy who works on grand piano's that said he's worked on 'a few' rhodes pianos over the years. Are they similar enough that I should assume this guy knows what he's doing?

2) On my piano the harp was not attached to the aluminum mounts or the flip up hinges when I got it. I know I'll need to match the threads in the aluminium when replacing those bolts but I'm confused about the bolts for the flip up hinge. Here's a pic:



You can see that there is a pretty significant gap between the hinge and the harp. Is this normal?

Thanks!!

[paulb]

Isn't Peter Hayes in your area? 

http://www.elecedge.com

[Student Rhodes]

The gap isn't necessarily abnormal.  I've seen harps set with a stack of washers on the screw.
Ray

[ianmgull]

Thanks for the advice all.

I've decided to go ahead with the repairs myself. I'm in the process of doing a general clean-up. I was wondering what you guys used to clean the keytops? Mine are pretty gross.

[BerneseMtnDog]

I like a plastic polish called Novus #2 for polishing keys and things.  Have fun with the restoration.  I got my first Rhodes last year and have spent countless hours fiddling with it to get it just right.  I'm sure a professional would do a better job faster but I think it's good for owners to get in there and learn to do this stuff.

Steve

[pianotuner steveo]

Hahaha, you asked if you could trust a piano tech?


Piano techs have formal training in this area, so yes..... I learned on both around the same time. Too bad I am not in your area.

[Ben Bove]

most likely, the reason the swivel brackets aren't attached to the side of the harp is that someone reset the strikeline in the case, and doesn't line up with the bracket anymore.  They can't access the bottom screw of the swivel bracket because the case blocks access, so they just leave the bracket sit free.

You could tell this if there are multiple screw holes besides the standard 2 in the left harp support block.

[ianmgull]

Ok guys I've got a new question. So far I've replaced the front and balance rail felts. I've got the keys installed and the hammers installed above at this point. I'm trying to get the key-bed nice and level but noticed something strange:

Most of the hammers get stuck very high up on moderate to heavy hits. Instead of falling back down to the flat part of the hammer arm, they get stuck with the back edge of the hammer arm touching the pedestal (while I'm holding the key down).

I haven't changed the pedestal felts because they seemed in decent enough shape and I have a '78 model with the felt bump mod from the factory (I assume).

Do I need to lubricate the felts maybe? It seems like if the felts were a bit slicker the hammer would fall back down into its normal position after the hit. If so what should I use?

[David Aubke]

You're not doing this with the harp removed are you? The hammers rely on the tines to limit their upward movement. Without them, they will land very differently on the pedestal.

If that's not it, I don't think I'd try to resolve this issue with lubricant. Has the action rail been moved, possibly changing the hammers' relationships with the keys?

Opinions vary on lubricants. I currently use Teflon powder.

[ianmgull]

Hey Dave,

At the moment I do have the harp removed. I removed everything from the case to clean everything and asses the condition of everything. So to answer your question yes the action rail has been moved.

I've seen lots of videos describing the various repairs that might need to be done. What I'm unsure of is what order I should do things in I guess. At the moment I've got the keys installed with their new felts. I've also installed the hammer combs with their new tips. If this isn't the right time to set key height what should I do next? I was going to replace damper felts and reinstall those after I set the key-height but if that's not the next thing I should tackle please let me know.

Below are photos that show where I'm at in putting all the pieces back together and one of the hammers that were stuck high like I was saying.

[voltergeist]

Ok guys I've got a new question. So far I've replaced the front and balance rail felts. I've got the keys installed and the hammers installed above at this point. I'm trying to get the key-bed nice and level but noticed something strange:

Most of the hammers get stuck very high up on moderate to heavy hits. Instead of falling back down to the flat part of the hammer arm, they get stuck with the back edge of the hammer arm touching the pedestal (while I'm holding the key down).

I haven't changed the pedestal felts because they seemed in decent enough shape and I have a '78 model with the felt bump mod from the factory (I assume).

Do I need to lubricate the felts maybe? It seems like if the felts were a bit slicker the hammer would fall back down into its normal position after the hit. If so what should I use?

Your keys are probably not touching the guide rail felts (the big green ones on the player side).  When the key is depressed fully, the key should touch those green felts, and the hammer should rest flat on the pedestal.  If they don't, the green felts should be shimmed such that the key hits the felt when the key reaches the stop/lock position (where the pedestal is parallel to the flat hammer surface when the key is depressed).  If there's not enough shim, you'll see excessive travel such as you're experiencing.  If you put in too much shim, the hammer will bounce on the pedestal in the key-down position.  When the shim is right, the hammer should quickly stop, level with the pedestal.  Having the green felts shimmed properly will improve the feel, too, since the keybed tends to feel spongey if the keys aren't reaching the green felts (which seems to be a common problem in late MkI's).

[David Aubke]

Ok guys I've got a new question. So far I've replaced the front and balance rail felts. I've got the keys installed and the hammers installed above at this point. I'm trying to get the key-bed nice and level but noticed something strange:

Most of the hammers get stuck very high up on moderate to heavy hits. Instead of falling back down to the flat part of the hammer arm, they get stuck with the back edge of the hammer arm touching the pedestal (while I'm holding the key down).

I haven't changed the pedestal felts because they seemed in decent enough shape and I have a '78 model with the felt bump mod from the factory (I assume).

Do I need to lubricate the felts maybe? It seems like if the felts were a bit slicker the hammer would fall back down into its normal position after the hit. If so what should I use?

Your keys are probably not touching the guide rail felts (the big green ones on the player side).  When the key is depressed fully, the key should touch those green felts, and the hammer should rest flat on the pedestal.  If they don't, the green felts should be shimmed such that the key hits the felt when the key reaches the stop/lock position (where the pedestal is parallel to the flat hammer surface when the key is depressed).  If there's not enough shim, you'll see excessive travel such as you're experiencing.  If you put in too much shim, the hammer will bounce on the pedestal in the key-down position.  When the shim is right, the hammer should quickly stop, level with the pedestal.  Having the green felts shimmed properly will improve the feel, too, since the keybed tends to feel spongey if the keys aren't reaching the green felts (which seems to be a common problem in late MkI's).

Alright you guys, have it your way. Don't listen to the grouch in the corner trying to tell you how it was when he was growin' up. I still say Harold would roll in his grave if he heard this front-felt philosophy. It's as though you care more about how the piano plays than staying true to its mass-production roots.

[squarebubble]

The VV Key Shim kits come with shims for the front rail, so one would assume they share the same philosophy.

[David Aubke]

I wondered what those big shims were for.

[pianotuner steveo]

@ianmgull, it is common for the hammers to look like that in an old Rhodes. They are rarely in a perfectly straight line like in a Wurli or an acoustic piano. There are far less adjustments available in a Rhodes. If all the keys play well, there is no need to drive yourself crazy with one or two sitting a little higher.

I agree that the front rail felts should be used as the key depth stop. That is what they are for in Wurli's and in all acoustic pianos. The Rhodes is the only piano-like instrument in 300+ years that I am aware of that did not intend to use them that way. The back rail cloth should be used to help determine the key height at rest ( fronts of the keys) but the front rail felts and shims should be the key dip adjustment in my piano technology trained opinion.

[voltergeist]

The back rail cloth should be used to help determine the key height at rest ( fronts of the keys) but the front rail felts and shims should be the key dip adjustment in my piano technology trained opinion.

One can't look at the front rail felts as simply a key dip adjustment, because the three points of interest (hammer in stop/lock, balance rail, and guide rail) are all inter-related.  Key dip is not an independent adjustment on a Rhodes.   It's a dependent variable.

[voltergeist]

Btw, ianmgull, it's much easier to see what's going on with regards to the guiderail felts if the piano is removed from the case.  If you don't want to remove it from the case for some reason, remove several keys on one side of the key you're working on so you can look at the guiderail felt from the side.

[ianmgull]

Thanks for the advice all.

Btw, ianmgull, it's much easier to see what's going on with regards to the guiderail felts if the piano is removed from the case.  If you don't want to remove it from the case for some reason, remove several keys on one side of the key you're working on so you can look at the guiderail felt from the side.

I actually had the piano completely removed early to clean the inside of the case. I changed all the felts but the pedestal felts at this point. I have a bag of shims from vintage vibe but I haven't used any yet partially because I'm unsure about when the right time to set the depth would be. The consensus here seems to be that I should hit the standard 3/8" depth against the front felts regardless of whether or not the harp is on so I'll make that my next task.

@ianmgull, it is common fr the hammers to look like that in an old Rhodes. They are rarely in a perfectly straight line like in a Wurli or an acoustic piano. There are far less adjustments available in a Rhodes. If all the keys play well, there is no need to drive yourself crazy with one or two sitting a little higher.

I agree that the front rail felts should be used as the key depth stop. That is what they are for in Wurli's and in all acoustic pianos. The Rhodes is the only piano-like instrument in 300+ years that I am aware of that did not intend to use them that way. The back rail cloth should be used to help determine the key height at rest ( fronts of the keys) but the front rail felts and shims should be the key dip adjustment in my piano technology trained opinion.

I'm not sure if it's visible partially because I accidentally made the photos gigantic... but if you scroll over on the image with the hammers you can see that one of them is "stuck high". I'm holding down the key in that image but as you can see, the hammer hasn't settled down into its normal resting position in which the flat part of the hammer is on the key pedestal. I was wondering  why this is as it happens on a lot of the keys.

[pianotuner steveo]

Ok, now I see what you mean. Well, the harp is not in play here, so that does not really matter. If the harp was in place, and the hammer stays up, that is a different story.

[voltergeist]

Wait until you have the pedestal felts on before shimming the guiderail felts. 

[ianmgull]

Ok I wanted to provide an update and get some more advice.

As of now I've:

Replaced back, balance rail, and front felts.
Leveled keys and set dip.
Replaced Hammer tips
Replaced Damper felts
Replaced Tonebar screws, washers, and grommets.

I put the harp back on the piano today and...

IT SOUNDS LIKE s**t!!!! Lots of dead notes, metallic pings, clanks, dull notes, etc...

This is to be expected of course as I haven't done many things which are still essential. Here's what I think still needs to happen:

-Adjust bend in damper felts (some don't pull away enough, some don't pull away at all, I think I can use a paint can to put the right curve in?)

-Set strikeline. I put one screw in and moved the harp around to what I think is the sweetspot. Is it too early to tell yet?

-Set escapment.

-Tune (set pitch). Some of the springs got bumped around.

So I'm wondering what order to do things in at this point? When dealing with shitty notes, how do I know where the shittyness comes from? I know I have one bad pickup (replacement on the way). I also have a few tines coming. Aside from that I don't know what to do. Some notes just sound really funky.

Wat do? 

[pianotuner steveo]

I would adjust strike line first.

(I meant as a test not set the final strike line)

[voltergeist]

Don't commit to a strike line until you've got the bugs out.  Take out all the mounting screws, adjust, mark the position with pencil.  Once things are working well and you're confident you've got the best line, then drill new holes.

Find a decent strike line then set escapement.  It takes a lot of work to get all the bugs out of some of these pianos.  Be patient, make steady progress, and you'll get it worked out.

[Ben Bove]

Agreed I wouldn't set a final strike line, but you may want to play with moving the harp around - to see if it sounding like "s**t" is coming from being that far out of alignment, or if it's related to how the tonebar/pickup relationship is set up.  Sounds like you made a good number of changes so it could be a couple of different things.

metallic pings might indicate tines aren't getting struck in the right spot.  Is this mid to mid-high range?  Around C above middle C?  You might want to slide the harp around a bit (free of the side swivel brackets) and see if the pings clear with moving the harp.  You might also want to note if you have any tines in there that aren't the correct length (they should all be in succession getting smaller on the way up, sometimes you see some oddballs thrown in that are longer than their neighbors).

Are the dead notes in the upper register?  Not sure if I saw which brand of grommets you used.

Are you comfortable with setting tonebars and pickup distance ratio?  Let us know!

[voltergeist]

"Metallic pings" could also be tines too close to the pickups.

[ianmgull]

Thanks for the comments all,

So I realize there are probably a number of issues here but I've definitely found what is likely the easiest to fix.

My dampers are bent every which way. Many don't even come off the tine at all when I hit a key. I've heard I can bend these around a quart paint can to get them all to agree but I'm not sure which way.

Do you bend:

Around so that the felt dampers are away from the can?
or
Around so that the felt is towards the can?

I'll address escapement and strikeline after I get this figured out.

[David Aubke]

When I clean the damper arms, the rubbing action also tends to flatten them out. I install them that way and let the bridle straps do their thing.

I'm happy with the results so far but would be interested in others' opinions of that technique.

[voltergeist]

When I clean the damper arms, the rubbing action also tends to flatten them out. I install them that way and let the bridle straps do their thing.

I'm happy with the results so far but would be interested in others' opinions of that technique.

Wow, David, those look great. What do you clean them with?

[David Aubke]

I use these things which we sell at my day job.

We call them Fret Erasers but they'll erase other things.

I also use them on the pickup tabs.

[ianmgull]

Hey guys. I'm still trying to figure out the situation with my dampers not pulling away. I tried bending the dampers but I think I might have made things worse by bending the wrong way.

There's a photo below. Should the bridal straps be under more tension than they are here? In this photo I'm NOT pushing down the keys. There is a significant amount of slack in the bridal straps when they are at rest here. Any advice?

[voltergeist]

Hey guys. I'm still trying to figure out the situation with my dampers not pulling away. I tried bending the dampers but I think I might have made things worse by bending the wrong way.

There's a photo below. Should the bridal straps be under more tension than they are here? In this photo I'm NOT pushing down the keys. There is a significant amount of slack in the bridal straps when they are at rest here. Any advice?

Ideally, the damper arm should be set so there is little or no delay between when you push the key down and when the damper arm starts moving.  Make sense?

Read the section in the service manual on adjusting damper arms.

Bend the front down of the damper arms down. That will take up the slack.  Adjust the felt end of the damper arm such that the felts exert just enough pressure on the tine to stop the sound when the key is up.  The damper arm should start moving as soon as the key is pressed down.  You shouldn't have to press the key down very far at all before the damper arm starts moving.  If you do have to press the key down a significant amount before the damper starts moving, you've got the felt end of the damper arm bent too high.

[David Aubke]

That does appear to be an excessive amount of slack.

[8675309]

The dampers are raw & not plated/coated so they are eventually just going to tarnish/corrode again unless they are plated or sealed somehow which imho is diminishing returns on a non cosmetic/hidden functional part?? They do look nice!! but it really has no effect on the function of the piano having them shiny. Kind of a headache to polish them without messing their adjustment up isn't it??

As for the OP or anyone else about to embark on a Rhodes re-do.. Before you go on a shopping torrent replacing everything try doing things incrementally. Not every piano needs new everything.
In some cases a good cleaning and setup yields a fine instrument. Everyone gravitates towards replacing everything from the start and the results always seem to suck, especially around here! I see a pattern and its not a good one.  I cannot speak for everyone here but after a year of lurking around I've yet to see a "I bought $$$$$$'s of parts to fix my piano and now my piano sounds great now" threads, its always my piano sounds like "s**t" or HELP ME This **** doesn't fit or this doesn't work - "what do I do now" threads!! Everyone goes buck-wild buying parts and the results leaves this reader scratching his head thinking hmm, maybe they should get some better direction before pulling the trigger and executing their vintage instrument..

There are better processes of fixing these instruments and the path to follow to get there is doing 1 thing at a time and taking your time doing it. When you go and change every aspect of the instrument its just not a good place to start at, especially with a rhodes, they're so finicky.  Threads like this makes me weary of any "How to" videos on floating around .  Replace this, replace that- isn't working out too good! 

Find a rhodes service manual, a good deal of Valid information is inside them and its a good starting point on what to do..

[David Aubke]

The dampers are raw & not plated/coated so they are eventually just going to tarnish/corrode again unless they are plated or sealed somehow

I guess I thought they were aluminum. I've seen mild etching but never rust on damper arms.

[ianmgull]

The dampers are raw & not plated/coated so they are eventually just going to tarnish/corrode again unless they are plated or sealed somehow which imho is diminishing returns on a non cosmetic/hidden functional part?? They do look nice!! but it really has no effect on the function of the piano having them shiny. Kind of a headache to polish them without messing their adjustment up isn't it??

As for the OP or anyone else about to embark on a Rhodes re-do.. Before you go on a shopping torrent replacing everything try doing things incrementally. Not every piano needs new everything.
In some cases a good cleaning and setup yields a fine instrument. Everyone gravitates towards replacing everything from the start and the results always seem to suck, especially around here! I see a pattern and its not a good one.  I cannot speak for everyone here but after a year of lurking around I've yet to see a "I bought $$$$$$'s of parts to fix my piano and now my piano sounds great now" threads, its always my piano sounds like "s**t" or HELP ME This **** doesn't fit or this doesn't work - "what do I do now" threads!! Everyone goes buck-wild buying parts and the results leaves this reader scratching his head thinking hmm, maybe they should get some better direction before pulling the trigger and executing their vintage instrument..

There are better processes of fixing these instruments and the path to follow to get there is doing 1 thing at a time and taking your time doing it. When you go and change every aspect of the instrument its just not a good place to start at, especially with a rhodes, they're so finicky.  Threads like this makes me weary of any "How to" videos on floating around .  Replace this, replace that- isn't working out too good! 

Find a rhodes service manual, a good deal of Valid information is inside them and its a good starting point on what to do..

Point taken.

In my case though I've made significant improvement over the condition this piano was in when I got it so I don't at all regret the overhaul. Today especially.

I discovered that the reason about a third of my notes were dead and plinky and awful was that the escapement was nearly zero on the top half of the harp.

After I changed my grommets I took the standard advice of setting the tonebar 3/8" above the harp and assumed that would be good enough to get started on. For reasons beyond me the upper hammers were still touching the tines when the key was held down, effectively muting the top couple octaves.

I put a couple shims under the right side of the harp and things are MUCH better. It sounds like a rhodes now 

So...

I've heard of the lower octaves of the harp needing shims but haven't seen anyone mention the top portion. You guys heard of this? Also is there any problem with using a couple washers as a shim between the harp and the harp support? There is already a piece of cork on top of the aluminium harp support but a couple washers brings it where it needs to be.

I still haven't formally set the escapement but the thing is at least playable now.

Still fussing with damper arms though.

Also... Some notes give me what sounds like a slap-back delay. The same note being played twice in rapid succession. I assume this is related to my damper problem? It's almost like it quickly damps and then the hammer bounce briefly pulls it aways allowing the note to quickly sound again.

[Ben Bove]

Good to hear in the top register.  However, it is a rarity the escapement needs to be raised in the upper register to bring back the sound.  There may be something else going on... but if it works it works right now.  The slap-back (double striking) notes may also be related to this and your escapement in general.  If you hold the sustain pedal down and all the dampers are pulled far down and out of the way, if the double striking continues then it's not related to dampers.  You may also want to adjust your sustain rod up for extra push to experiment.

On a 1978, usually the high register factory shim is fine and the bass register shim I remove and add a much smaller shim, just as a reference.

I would advise against the washers on top of cork - mainly because over time, the weight of the harp will compress the washers into the cork - it's not a solid enough of a material.  Not immediately, but over time with a washer's small surface area they'll sink and lower the harp back.  Dry wall shims can work from a hardward store and you can cut them down with scissors, or if you need something immediate, even say an old credit card can be cut into a couple shims.

[voltergeist]

Good to hear in the top register.  However, it is a rarity the escapement needs to be raised in the upper register to bring back the sound.  There may be something else going on... but if it works it works right now.  The slap-back (double striking) notes may also be related to this and your escapement in general.  If you hold the sustain pedal down and all the dampers are pulled far down and out of the way, if the double striking continues then it's not related to dampers.  You may also want to adjust your sustain rod up for extra push to experiment.

On a 1978, usually the high register factory shim is fine and the bass register shim I remove and add a much smaller shim, just as a reference.

I would advise against the washers on top of cork - mainly because over time, the weight of the harp will compress the washers into the cork - it's not a solid enough of a material.  Not immediately, but over time with a washer's small surface area they'll sink and lower the harp back.  Dry wall shims can work from a hardward store and you can cut them down with scissors, or if you need something immediate, even say an old credit card can be cut into a couple shims.

I don't understand shimming the harp supports other than as a band-aid.  Doesn't make sense to me to do that on a restore, other than for experimental purposes.

[David Aubke]

I don't understand shimming the harp supports other than as a band-aid.  Doesn't make sense to me to do that on a restore, other than for experimental purposes.

Because you think the un-shimmed supports are exactly the right height out of the gate? Because you alter the supports to be the appropriate height rather than shim?

Elaborations, please.

[Ben Bove]

Yeah the shims give you the ability to adjust the height of the harp, because with construction every piano is different but the supports alone usually are not the right height.  I've left the bass shim off entirely on an aluminum frame piano before, another I've had 2 old black shims in there... it all depends really.  Problem I've seen on early wood frame pianos is if the harp is too low, tines start breaking from the hammer blow force.  I snapped 3 in an hour lowering a harp too much.  So there needs to be some protection from too much tine impact, though it may be less apparent on a Schaller tined piano as they are more resilient. 

Unfortunately most aluminum frame pianos have too much "protection" with big shims as the notion has been kicked around this was done to save warranty tine replacement.

[voltergeist]

Shimming the supports changes the height of the tine over the hammer, no?  That height is the escapement,  no?  Escapement can be set by the screws, no?  I can see changing the shim if the screws need too low or too high to achieve the proper escapement.   Otherwise, it doesn't make sense to me.  Maybe I'm missing something.

[David Aubke]

I think many people find the tone bar screws provide enough range to correct only minor escapement problems. A wholesale adjustment is too often needed before using the screws to dial in the final setup.

That said, for my restoration work, I like to improve on the aesthetic of the stock black fiberboard shims. They're often loose, misaligned or damaged and I replace them with more carefully fitted oak. I guess this is one place where I violate my general rule of restoring to original condition.

[ianmgull]

Regarding the escapement:

The only thing I can think of is the fact that I used medium balance rail felts instead of thin ones. I only did that because that is what was in there previously and I figured I should just match the thickness when I replaced them. Aside from that I can't think of anything I had done which would effect the key height.

The good news is that I found a nice solution. I had some scrap plexiglass (polycarbonate) lying around and I made a couple shims that work quite nice. My escapement is now much closer on both extremes.

My new problem:

I had ordered 5 replacement tines off of ebay because I have a few bad ones in the lower octaves. I didn't realize that they weren't long enough however. (I got one of the high traffic packs of tines; 4.5 inches). So...

I'm wondering if anyone has a source of longer uncut tines (6"- 6.5")? Ebay is pretty slim pickings at the moment.

[squarebubble]

There are several suppliers selling tines, it just depends on where you are. If you're in the US, try Vintage Vibe. If you're in the UK, try Electric Keys. If you're in Holland, try EP Service. These are just a few that spring to mind and they all have their own websites.

[Ben Bove]

That was always funny to me - the "replacement" pack of tines was only for the high-traffic area, and aren't long enough for a 1/3 of the piano's bass register.  At the same time... I've never seen a broken tine in the low 1/3 of the piano, ever. 

[ianmgull]

Yeah I was hoping to go the used route if possible. Vintage Vibe is definitely on the pricey side of things. In other news I have 6 uncut 4.5" tines and several 3" pickups if anyone is interested in a trade.

I need 4 long tines, sustain pedal and sustain rod.