Author Topic: How to save a bad tine?  (Read 392 times)

Offline guizmo

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How to save a bad tine?
« on: February 25, 2019, 08:14:37 AM »
Hi everybody!

I post here because I have a problem on one note of my fender rhodes.
If you listen to the sample, you’ll hear the problem.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pDso46kCJmFI6b1wkIU1vzrKiWOs2FEz/view?usp=drivesdk

Note that all the others notes are perfects, so 70’ish.

Changing the tine would be the last solution, all the tines and tonebars are originals from 1972, and a new one will sound different of the fender era ones.

I dismounted the tine/TB assembly and the TB seems ok, I re-tightened the tine, left the spring, clean the tine with 000 steel wool, and nothing changed.

I noticed that the tine front edge isn’t square and that the bottom is flattered, like shown in the picture.

Do you think it would be interesting to make the front edge square with a bench grinder (like I make usually on new tines to have a perfect finish) ? I read that a square edge is very important for the sound...
Do you think it can solve my problem or not ?

I’m hesitating because I don’t want to grind too much and make the tine too sharper without being able to make it flatter with the spring...

Thanks

Offline sean

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Re: How to save a bad tine?
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2019, 03:24:44 PM »


I personally don't believe that having the tip of the tine be clean and square makes any difference.  My testing reveals no difference.  Jagged haphazard tine ends clipped with dykes sound great.  Sharp square tine ends cut with a diamond mototool blade sound great.

It sounds to me like your note is being damped by the hammer tip.  Raise the tine away from the hammer tip.
I think even the worst of grommets would not damp the tine like that.

Sean


Offline sean

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Re: How to save a bad tine?
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2019, 03:31:02 PM »


One other thought... could the square tine block on that note be contacting the wooden harp frame?  If the tine is slanted drastically downward, maybe the tine block is rubbing against the wood?  I think that is less likely than the hammer tip being blocked against the tine.

Oh, I guess I didn't ask... is the bridal strap broken?  Does the damper work on that note?

Sean

Offline guizmo

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Re: How to save a bad tine?
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2019, 03:46:14 PM »
Thank you !! I’ll check all that !
Effectively, I haven’t thought about all that possibilities ! Tine touching the wood, hammer damping the tine...

For the grommets, I thought about, but they are all originals, all the notes have a perfect sustain, the 2 grommets of this note are identicals to the others so... but I’ll try to change this 2 ones to see if it changes something.

Bridal strap ? Sorry I don’t understand (I’m french), I tried to google it, but I only found wedding dresses ^^

Offline dnarkosis

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Re: How to save a bad tine?
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2019, 05:32:10 PM »
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Offline guizmo

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Re: How to save a bad tine?
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2019, 01:00:18 AM »
Ah ok  ;D I see now !
I don’t think it’s broken but I’ll check too!

Offline pianotuner steveo

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Re: How to save a bad tine?
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2019, 06:35:01 PM »
This topic is blank...
1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
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1979 Wurlitzer 206A EP
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2009 Korg SV-1 73
....and a few guitars...

Offline guizmo

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Re: How to save a bad tine?
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2019, 10:50:39 PM »
I know... I thought that it was a problem only for me because I had replies but it seems to be blank for you too.
When I logout I can see the topic. But when I log in, it’s blank but I can see it when I press the REPLY button...
I contacted a moderator the first day I posted, but I had no reply. I wanted to delete it and post it again...

Edit : it seems to work again
« Last Edit: February 28, 2019, 08:10:13 AM by guizmo »

Offline guizmo

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Re: How to save a bad tine?
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2019, 08:37:14 AM »
I just checked everything, and all is ok.

- tine doesn’t touch the harp wood
- the bridle strap is ok
- the hammer tip doesn’t touch the tine after the hit
- the damper works fine

Here’s the pictures of the tine, what do you think ?

Offline mvanmanen

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Re: How to save a bad tine?
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2019, 09:47:19 AM »
I usually square off the ends of my tines after cutting them...this one does not appear to have been nicely cut...nor is the rest nice and cylindrical as you mentioned previously....I think you should replace the tine
« Last Edit: February 28, 2019, 09:49:27 AM by mvanmanen »
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Offline guizmo

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Re: How to save a bad tine?
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2019, 11:31:46 AM »
Thanks !

I gonna square off the tine to be sure, try with others grommets and I’ll see.

I’m a bit ennoyed to change the tine because I don’t know if it will change the sound...
I have changed some tines on later models but not on my 71... the tine is the tone generator, and the 71 sound is very specific so...

Offline Tim Hodges

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Re: How to save a bad tine?
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2019, 07:01:06 AM »
I've seen that burr on the bass tines of an 88 before (pre 75 if I remember correctly)

It's good practice to make sure the ends of the tines are straight so I think you're right in trying that out first before replacement.

Any chance we can have a sound clip?

Also what # tine is it?
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Offline pnoboy

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Re: How to save a bad tine?
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2019, 07:11:17 AM »


I personally don't believe that having the tip of the tine be clean and square makes any difference.  My testing reveals no difference.  Jagged haphazard tine ends clipped with dykes sound great.  Sharp square tine ends cut with a diamond mototool blade sound great.

It sounds to me like your note is being damped by the hammer tip.  Raise the tine away from the hammer tip.
I think even the worst of grommets would not damp the tine like that.

Sean


I have to agree--tines with square ends and tines without square ends sound the same as far as I have been able to tell.

Offline Tim Hodges

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Re: How to save a bad tine?
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2019, 07:22:29 AM »
I've found that in the mid range it gives a raspiness to the note  :)
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Offline guizmo

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Re: How to save a bad tine?
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2019, 07:24:13 AM »
Thanks for your answers !

I gonna try to square off, I’ll be sure like that !
Tim, the tine is #35.
There’s a sound clip on my first post, the google drive link.

Thanks

Offline Tim Hodges

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Re: How to save a bad tine?
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2019, 07:36:38 AM »
Thanks for your answers !

I gonna try to square off, I’ll be sure like that !
Tim, the tine is #35.
There’s a sound clip on my first post, the google drive link.

Thanks

So there is, sorry me being lazy! From the sounds of it I don't think you're going to have much luck with that tine.

I do have some spare 1974 tines and an entire set of 1971 tines but I can't part those out as I'll be using them in an upcoming restoration.

I did see this listing for #34. You could cut off a mm or so to make it for #35.

https://reverb.com/item/5782912-vintage-fender-rhodes-later-raymac-tines-1969-1971-c-34
« Last Edit: March 01, 2019, 07:45:47 AM by Tim Hodges »
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Offline guizmo

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Re: How to save a bad tine?
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2019, 07:37:36 AM »
Thanks for your answers !

I gonna try to square off, I’ll be sure like that !
Tim, the tine is #35.
There’s a sound clip on my first post, the google drive link.

Thanks

So there is, sorry me being lazy!

No problem ^^
« Last Edit: March 01, 2019, 07:43:02 AM by guizmo »

Offline pnoboy

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Re: How to save a bad tine?
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2019, 07:41:04 AM »
I agree with Sean--in my experience,  squared tine ends do not change the tone produced by the tine as far as I have been able to tell.

Offline guizmo

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Re: How to save a bad tine?
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2019, 01:05:47 PM »
I squared off the tine, now is perfectly square (picture).

But, it measures 60,9mm instead of 61,9mm (like written on my bedside topic https://ep-forum.com/smf/index.php?topic=9647.0). It seems to be better to have a smaller tine with the spring near the edge, so, will see (my rhodes isn't at home so, I'll maybe check next week... rrrrr).

I verified, it produced a D with the spring in the position shown in my picture.

Offline pianotuner steveo

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Re: How to save a bad tine?
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2019, 08:14:25 AM »
Assuming that the tine to the left of this one works fine,have you tried moving the bad sounding tine to the note next to it to determine for sure if the problem has to do with the hammer or the tine? This will instantly tell you if the problem is the tine itself. If the tine sounds fine when swapping, then it is either an escapement issue, or a mounting issue like mentioned above. It still could be the grommets, so don't just instantly buy a new tine if the problem still seems to be coming from the tine itself.

When troubleshooting, eliminate all of the possibilities, starting with the free solutions.
1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
1968 Gibson G101 Combo organ
1975 Rhodes Piano Bass
1979 Wurlitzer 206A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 200A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 270 Butterfly Grand
2000 Yamaha acoustic piano
2004 Hammond XK3
2009 73A Rhodes Mark 7
2009 Korg SV-1 73
....and a few guitars...

Offline guizmo

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Re: How to save a bad tine?
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2019, 08:31:47 AM »
Yes, I thought about changing the tine position. I’ll try as soon as possible !
Thanks

Offline guizmo

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Re: How to save a bad tine?
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2019, 10:56:45 AM »
I made the tests and I think it’s definitely the tine.

The bad tine is #35, and now it’s squared off and clean.

I tried new bushings -> nothing
I swapped with the #36 tine, and the #36 in position of #35 sounds good.
I didn’t put the #35 on #36 position, didn’t want to screw/unscrew to avoid damaging the hole.

I think, I’m good for a new tine...

Offline pianotuner steveo

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Re: How to save a bad tine?
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2019, 05:09:21 PM »
That sounds right...
1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
1968 Gibson G101 Combo organ
1975 Rhodes Piano Bass
1979 Wurlitzer 206A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 200A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 270 Butterfly Grand
2000 Yamaha acoustic piano
2004 Hammond XK3
2009 73A Rhodes Mark 7
2009 Korg SV-1 73
....and a few guitars...