Author Topic: Recommended (cheap, generic) replacement speakers for 200A  (Read 1134 times)

Offline Abraham

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Recommended (cheap, generic) replacement speakers for 200A
« on: March 29, 2019, 05:03:20 PM »
I don't need them to be exact replacement as long as I can get them fitted to the existing holes.

I know about vintagevibe, retrolinear... They sell replacements but they're very expensive, I'm looking for cheaper alternatives or anything I can get on a local store, but then I need measures and technical details I don't have.

Any help is appreciated. Thank you.
1976 Rhodes MKI '73 Suitcase
1976 Wurlitzer 200-A EP
1981 Casio VL-Tone (Yeah!)
199x Kawai CX-21D Upright
20xx Clavia Nord Electro 2

Offline cinnanon

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Re: Recommended (cheap, generic) replacement speakers for 200A
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2019, 07:21:13 PM »
Me and you both.... I can tell you they don’t exist. RadioShack at one time made some but they were 4 ohm not 16 ohm, so you’d have to wire them in series instead of parallel. That was decades ago. Save your time looking and just buy Ken rich or VV. Once in a blue moon someone lists them on the bay but they’re usually broken or sold “as-is”.  Oh, and the size is 4x8

Offline sean

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Re: Recommended (cheap, generic) replacement speakers for 200A
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2019, 09:02:40 PM »

I would drag my Wurly speaker to the local car stereo shops.  But they might not be cheaper than $140 for a pair.

Online, there are lots of cheap 4" x 6" speakers available, a few 4" x 8" too.  Some of them have mounting flanges that look like Swiss cheese, so at least some of the mounting holes should line up.  I would probably just clip the leads to the tweeter on the 2-way and 3-way speakers, and just use the main cone.

Maybe you can't get too fancy, because modern speakers will have a huge magnet assembly that might be a difficult fit.  There is space behind the speaker, but the big magnet might not let the speaker tilt back.  I dunno.  Some 200A pianos have the speaker mounting screws exposed, right?  (My non-A 200 and 206 don't.)  That's why screw location can be important.  You could probably mount a simple circular 4" speaker, and use two existing screw holes and then some precarious bracket to hold the other side of the speaker.

Sean

Offline pianotuner steveo

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Re: Recommended (cheap, generic) replacement speakers for 200A
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2019, 03:34:35 PM »
I remember those Radio Shack speakers. I worked for Tandy for over 9 years. Too bad they are gone, but I saw that coming back in the '90's. I left to go full time with pianos 1 year before they closed my service center.
Anyway, I don't remember wiring them in series, I seem to remember just adding a small resistor to each one. It wouldn't have mattered much without the resistor, the Amps were pretty low power output. (10-12watts I think)

I'm sure you could find car speakers for far less than $140. Remember, the frequency response does not need to be 20-20khz.... 50-10khz should be more than enough to reproduce the sound well.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2019, 06:49:42 AM by pianotuner steveo »
1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
1968 Gibson G101 Combo organ
1975 Rhodes Piano Bass
1979 Wurlitzer 206A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 200A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 270 Butterfly Grand
2000 Yamaha acoustic piano
2004 Hammond XK3
2009 73A Rhodes Mark 7
2009 Korg SV-1 73
....and a few guitars...

Offline pianotuner steveo

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Re: Recommended (cheap, generic) replacement speakers for 200A
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2019, 06:46:07 AM »
There are some 4 x 8 car speakers on eBay right now. The closest one to a Wurlitzer speaker is a single, used, 16ohm speaker for $25, but there is also a pair of 8 ohm ( I think) Mustang car speakers for $36 with free shipping. These Mustang speakers are brand new, and I believe they are currently in production.
When talking about low powered amps, any speaker from 4-16 ohms should be fine. The 4 ohm may sound louder than the 16, but as long as they can safely handle about 12 watts , they should be fine. You can always add a small resistor in series with the + terminal if you wish. Fitting them into the cabinet may or may not be a challenge.

They are out there...
« Last Edit: March 31, 2019, 06:52:40 AM by pianotuner steveo »
1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
1968 Gibson G101 Combo organ
1975 Rhodes Piano Bass
1979 Wurlitzer 206A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 200A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 270 Butterfly Grand
2000 Yamaha acoustic piano
2004 Hammond XK3
2009 73A Rhodes Mark 7
2009 Korg SV-1 73
....and a few guitars...

Offline Abraham

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Re: Recommended (cheap, generic) replacement speakers for 200A
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2019, 04:53:40 AM »
any speaker from 4-16 ohms should be fine

Really? I wouldn't risk blowing up my amp, but if you say so, I trust you. About the resistors, please elaborate  :)

I've checked back on vintagevibe and kenrichsound sites and I've noticed magnet piece is way bigger on vintagevibe ones. To my (un)knowledge this may translate to louder output? I don't see them very overpriced and I think it may be worth buying them, but shipping + import taxes breaks the deal.

Thank you.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2019, 05:11:47 AM by Abraham »
1976 Rhodes MKI '73 Suitcase
1976 Wurlitzer 200-A EP
1981 Casio VL-Tone (Yeah!)
199x Kawai CX-21D Upright
20xx Clavia Nord Electro 2

Offline Abraham

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Re: Recommended (cheap, generic) replacement speakers for 200A
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2019, 06:40:29 PM »
Vintagevibe $65 a pair... Not cheap, but not bad... BUT...

+ shipping to Spain $99!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WTF?!?

The problem here is, import charges are calculated including shipping cost, so...

$164 + 3% import taxes + 21% VAT + customs agent payment, makes this around:

$270 total. A single pair of speakers. Yeah. Really.






1976 Rhodes MKI '73 Suitcase
1976 Wurlitzer 200-A EP
1981 Casio VL-Tone (Yeah!)
199x Kawai CX-21D Upright
20xx Clavia Nord Electro 2

Offline pianotuner steveo

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Re: Recommended (cheap, generic) replacement speakers for 200A
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2019, 08:17:56 PM »
I'm not sure what you mean about blowing up your amp.. 4 ohm speakers would be a little louder than 16 ohm speakers. Speakers aren't going to fry your amp,unless the speakers themselves are fried and left connected to an amp that is on. It is not necessary to add resistors to these Mustang speakers, but you could if you wanted to. They appear to be able to handle the 12 or so watts without adding any.
 Most if not all headphones are 32 ohms, this is to keep the volume and bass from blowing out the tiny speakers, and to maybe protect your ears a little. Larger magnet size doesn't make them louder, it means the voice coil is larger (theoretically) which means they would be able to handle higher power than a speaker with a small magnet and small voice coil.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2019, 06:51:52 AM by pianotuner steveo »
1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
1968 Gibson G101 Combo organ
1975 Rhodes Piano Bass
1979 Wurlitzer 206A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 200A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 270 Butterfly Grand
2000 Yamaha acoustic piano
2004 Hammond XK3
2009 73A Rhodes Mark 7
2009 Korg SV-1 73
....and a few guitars...

Offline Tim Hodges

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Re: Recommended (cheap, generic) replacement speakers for 200A
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2019, 01:19:55 AM »
Vintagevibe $65 a pair... Not cheap, but not bad... BUT...

+ shipping to Spain $99!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WTF?!?

The problem here is, import charges are calculated including shipping cost, so...

$164 + 3% import taxes + 21% VAT + customs agent payment, makes this around:

$270 total. A single pair of speakers. Yeah. Really.

https://www.ep-service.nl/wurlitzer-200-speakers

VV's speakers but in Europe, 108.9 euros. Shipping is 8.5 euros.
Bristol Electric Piano
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Offline Abraham

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Re: Recommended (cheap, generic) replacement speakers for 200A
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2019, 10:09:44 AM »

https://www.ep-service.nl/wurlitzer-200-speakers

VV's speakers but in Europe, 108.9 euros. Shipping is 8.5 euros.

Total including taxes and shipping to Spain is 124,57€ = = $139,39

Definitely not cheap, way better though... They didn't state those are Vintagevibe's either.
1976 Rhodes MKI '73 Suitcase
1976 Wurlitzer 200-A EP
1981 Casio VL-Tone (Yeah!)
199x Kawai CX-21D Upright
20xx Clavia Nord Electro 2

Offline Abraham

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Re: Recommended (cheap, generic) replacement speakers for 200A
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2019, 10:11:55 AM »
Speakers aren't going to fry your amp

Thank you!
1976 Rhodes MKI '73 Suitcase
1976 Wurlitzer 200-A EP
1981 Casio VL-Tone (Yeah!)
199x Kawai CX-21D Upright
20xx Clavia Nord Electro 2

Offline pianotuner steveo

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Re: Recommended (cheap, generic) replacement speakers for 200A
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2019, 02:38:44 PM »
.......Unless they are fried.
1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
1968 Gibson G101 Combo organ
1975 Rhodes Piano Bass
1979 Wurlitzer 206A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 200A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 270 Butterfly Grand
2000 Yamaha acoustic piano
2004 Hammond XK3
2009 73A Rhodes Mark 7
2009 Korg SV-1 73
....and a few guitars...

Offline Electrickey

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Re: Recommended (cheap, generic) replacement speakers for 200A
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2019, 03:14:37 AM »
Quote
3% import taxes + 21% VAT + customs agent payment,

Where is as is.

Owning a vintage musical instrument comes at a price.

Be glad you don't live on the moon...

What happened to the original speakers in your piano?

Find what you can in your area that is close and make or have someone make a thin sturdy adapter out of wood, metal or plastic.





« Last Edit: June 16, 2019, 04:06:03 AM by Electrickey »

Offline Electrickey

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Re: Recommended (cheap, generic) replacement speakers for 200A
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2019, 04:38:15 AM »
Speakers aren't going to fry your amp

Thank you!

But if you don't use the proper impedance your amp is looking for, you won't get the same volume response out of your piano's amp if the impedance is different from the original.

The original impedance seen by the 200A amp is 8 ohms, with two 16 ohm speakers wired in parallel.

Also keep in mind that speakers are part of the character of the piano.

• If you don't use the originals or replacements that have been designed like/close to the originals, you won't get the classic sound and any aftermarket speaker may have frequency responses that don't bring out the proper sound of the piano.

Then again that may not matter to you.

With any speaker/ speaker replacement, it's a gamble as to how any one speaker will react in any instrument.

Be prepared for this gamble on the tone.

What are your priorities?






Offline pianotuner steveo

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Re: Recommended (cheap, generic) replacement speakers for 200A
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2019, 06:59:40 AM »
Yes, but since the tight space dictates finding speakers that are very close in size to the originals, will it change the sound that much? (Other than volume difference if different impedance is used)

In other words, yes, if you could physically put 8" round speakers in place of the 4x8's, then the sound will change a lot. But if you are putting in different 4x8's, would it really change that much? I don't think so, because I remember doing this when those previously mentioned Radio Shack speakers were available, and they sounded fine.
1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
1968 Gibson G101 Combo organ
1975 Rhodes Piano Bass
1979 Wurlitzer 206A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 200A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 270 Butterfly Grand
2000 Yamaha acoustic piano
2004 Hammond XK3
2009 73A Rhodes Mark 7
2009 Korg SV-1 73
....and a few guitars...

Offline Electrickey

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Re: Recommended (cheap, generic) replacement speakers for 200A
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2019, 10:27:16 AM »
will it change the sound that much?


Depends on how critical one is on how the piano will sound with other than original speakers. The size of a speaker is not the determining factor by itself. It will be a number of factors, the way the speaker was made, the materials used in assembly.

Case in point, the Yamaha NS10 studio monitors that started out as cheap bookshelf speakers, use a special white cone material that is not made anymore, which is why original NS10 speaker (raw frames) go for a lot of money because the sound is not the same and there are those who can tell.

Even speakers of the same make and model, manufacturer sound slightly different from themselves.

Not sure if this is accurate but according to a "docwurly" site history:

On the 1968 issues of the 200:

Quote
"The speaker at the bass end accents the bass notes and the one at the treble end stresses the highs, to give a stereo effect." This seems to have been achieved through cone design."

https://docwurly.com/wurlitzer-ep-history/wurlitzer-electric-piano-models-a-list/

Again, being a custodian of a prized vintage instrument comes with some responsibilities.

If it were mine I would keep it as original as possible.


Offline pianotuner steveo

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Re: Recommended (cheap, generic) replacement speakers for 200A
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2019, 04:04:31 PM »
I don't think that is true about the stereo effect, but then again, maybe it was something they tried in 1968 only.  Anyone can add a cap to filter out some bass from the right speaker, but I don't think I would do that. An external stereo effect pedal would be better.
1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
1968 Gibson G101 Combo organ
1975 Rhodes Piano Bass
1979 Wurlitzer 206A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 200A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 270 Butterfly Grand
2000 Yamaha acoustic piano
2004 Hammond XK3
2009 73A Rhodes Mark 7
2009 Korg SV-1 73
....and a few guitars...

Offline Electrickey

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Re: Recommended (cheap, generic) replacement speakers for 200A
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2019, 04:57:30 PM »
I don't think that is true about the stereo effect, but then again, maybe it was something they tried in 1968 only.  Anyone can add a cap to filter out some bass from the right speaker, but I don't think I would do that. An external stereo effect pedal would be better.

I was wondering about the use of the word "stereo" but I took it to mean there was a different sound from "two speakers" and not really a true stereo effect. That would mean there would need to be 2 amp channels going, to get stereo, not a single-channel mono.

There was no mention of the piano having a special amp for 1968.

For Wurlitzer to go the length of having different speakers designed and made to achieve the bass/treble side effect is interesting. That would mean reinstalling such speakers, one would need to have this information or install the cones in backwards.

Wurli amp designers: now you have some ideas for an upgrade amp/speaker unit.

Stereo vibrato? Reverb? Delay? Chorus? Distortion? Sky's the limit.

As far as experimenting, anyone is free to do that, adding blocker caps. It would take some time and effort. YMMV.

Offline Tim Hodges

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Re: Recommended (cheap, generic) replacement speakers for 200A
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2019, 03:23:40 AM »
I had a 200 from '68 in for servicing a while back and it had the 2 original speakers but each had a different model code. Rather than it being "stereo" each speaker was designed to accentuate the sounds of the treble and the bass.

Can't remember much about the wiring to them though.
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Offline Electrickey

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Re: Recommended (cheap, generic) replacement speakers for 200A
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2019, 07:25:56 AM »
I had a 200 from '68 in for servicing a while back and it had the 2 original speakers but each had a different model code. Rather than it being "stereo" each speaker was designed to accentuate the sounds of the treble and the bass.

Can't remember much about the wiring to them though.

Interesting.

Was the amp the normal 60's era mono 200 amp and preamp?

Offline Tim Hodges

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Re: Recommended (cheap, generic) replacement speakers for 200A
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2019, 12:12:36 PM »
Yep normal 200 series amp, no separate preamp like the 200a. The speaker cones on the bass seemed to have ridges where the treble didn’t. Both were original cones.
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Offline Electrickey

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Re: Recommended (cheap, generic) replacement speakers for 200A
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2019, 02:46:32 PM »
Yep normal 200 series amp, no separate preamp like the 200a. The speaker cones on the bass seemed to have ridges where the treble didn’t. Both were original cones.

Would be nice to see photos of these for documentation purposes.

To see EIA codes.

Does anyone know who made these cones for Wurlitzer over the years?
« Last Edit: June 26, 2019, 03:12:36 PM by Electrickey »

Offline Tim W

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Re: Recommended (cheap, generic) replacement speakers for 200A
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2019, 08:00:20 PM »
CTS made the Alnico speakers for Wurlitzer.  The EIA code stamped on the speaker baskets begins with 137.

We have seen several of these early 200s now with two different cone styles as noted.  Unfortunately we do not have any pictures available currently.  This was how the pianos were shipped from the factory.

The left speaker cone and surround was designed to give more low end response, and the right speaker had a smooth stiff cone and surround
which was better for high frequencies.  This, in effect, would put the treble on the right side of the piano (where the high keys are) and the bass on
the left side of the piano to give the player a more realistic experience like, perhaps, an acoustic piano.

This was probably a less expensive route to deliver this effect than doing it electronically (bi-amping, etc.), as electronics were more expensive than speakers at the time.  Nowadays the opposite is true.

This technique was also used extensively in organs from the same time period.  Many of the Hammond organs with built in speakers (M-100, for example) had 2 speakers with different cone designs so that the entire frequency spectrum would be reproduced clearly.  These speakers were simply wired in parallel to the main power amp- no special electronics or crossover network needed.  The mechanical design and materials used for the speakers themselves are what determined their frequency response.

Tim

Offline Electrickey

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Re: Recommended (cheap, generic) replacement speakers for 200A
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2019, 11:34:25 PM »
Thanks for the information Tim. :)

Offline pianotuner steveo

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Re: Recommended (cheap, generic) replacement speakers for 200A
« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2019, 10:12:45 AM »
Interesting. I never knew about this, but I don't own any "non A" 200 series pianos at the moment.
I only briefly owned a regular 200, but it was a "flip"

1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
1968 Gibson G101 Combo organ
1975 Rhodes Piano Bass
1979 Wurlitzer 206A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 200A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 270 Butterfly Grand
2000 Yamaha acoustic piano
2004 Hammond XK3
2009 73A Rhodes Mark 7
2009 Korg SV-1 73
....and a few guitars...

Offline Tim Hodges

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Re: Recommended (cheap, generic) replacement speakers for 200A
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2019, 12:53:52 AM »
Bass: 11 - 0750 EID Code: 137 6952D

Front of Speaker:
https://flic.kr/p/SiUd3o

Rear of Speaker:
https://flic.kr/p/RXXdhU

Treble: 11 - 0751 EID Code: 137 6947D

Front of Speaker:
https://flic.kr/p/SmrRjc

Rear of Speaker:
https://flic.kr/p/RiFuyK

Bristol Electric Piano
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Offline Electrickey

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Re: Recommended (cheap, generic) replacement speakers for 200A
« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2019, 06:47:18 AM »
Excellent, Tim, and thank you for providing this information!


Bass side

https://postimg.cc/YL7WmrPD/3f5a200b


Treble side

https://postimg.cc/8JXCT1Sr/da227e72

Couldn't figure out how to post larger photos of Tim's speakers.

« Last Edit: June 28, 2019, 09:45:44 AM by Electrickey »

Offline Tim Hodges

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Re: Recommended (cheap, generic) replacement speakers for 200A
« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2019, 08:47:48 AM »
Excellent, Tim, and thank you for providing this information!

No problem!
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Offline DocWurly

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Re: Recommended (cheap, generic) replacement speakers for 200A
« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2019, 10:55:51 PM »
The 200's had a lot of features that changed after the first run, approximately Sept 1968-Sept 1969.  Off the top of my head, and much of it brought to my attention by Cinnanon:

  • The "fake stereo" paired speakers
  • The "hairpin" slotted legs
  • Lettering _under_ the knobs on the faceplates
  • A different, bigger jewel bezel for the on/off light
  • Different grid pattern over the speakers (I think it was just the first year....?)

They also had not-great amps, a fuse on the knob/pot housing, and dangerous AC incoming wiring that should always be fixed.

I think the red and forest green colors were more widely available in that first run, too.

Offline Electrickey

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Re: Recommended (cheap, generic) replacement speakers for 200A
« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2019, 09:20:22 AM »
The 200's had a lot of features that changed after the first run, approximately Sept 1968-Sept 1969.  Off the top of my head, and much of it brought to my attention by Cinnanon:

  • The "fake stereo" paired speakers
  • The "hairpin" slotted legs
  • Lettering _under_ the knobs on the faceplates
  • A different, bigger jewel bezel for the on/off light
  • Different grid pattern over the speakers (I think it was just the first year....?)

They also had not-great amps, a fuse on the knob/pot housing, and dangerous AC incoming wiring that should always be fixed.

I think the red and forest green colors were more widely available in that first run, too.

That said, I personally prefer the sound of the 200 over the 200A.

The thing about amps is the technical on one side and then the ear on the other.

Over time we will notice many errors in design with anything humans make.

But in those errors lies some revealing qualities. :)

It is those qualities we might want over the spiffy-ness of the design.