Got my first 200A this week. A couple issues & seeking some advice.

[Magnets And Melodies]

Hi!

Man am I ever glad this forum exists   This is my first post so please take it easy on me! haha.

I've spent the last couple weeks reading this forum and others up and down to learn about the insides of the 200A before I purchased it.  I wanted to get a firm grip on whether or not I could confidently tend to any maintenance myself.  Well, by a stroke of luck, I met a seller in my area who had one he was willing to let go for a great price.  It's very rare to find these where I live so, I really did get lucky.

Overall it's in pretty good condition, but here are my observations - with a few questions for people here who've had experience.

Here are my Observations.

1.  Tuning

Really quite good except for 1 or 2 keys that are just slightly sharp, so I'm really happy about that.

2.  Action

There are a handful of notes, mostly in the upper registers, that may suffer from the "early letoff" issue I've read about.  When I play them softly they don't really register, so I typically have to hit them harder than other keys to get a sound from them.  Is this something I would raise the capstan's to fix?

3.  Tone Quality

This is probably the one I'm hoping to get the most advice on.  This Wurli is rather muddy.  There's a lot of low end and not much "bark" as they say.  Now when I say bark, I mean that complex harmonic content, not amplifier drive sorta bark.  I have a couple thoughts about this:

a). It could be the original amplifier? The EQ curve may just be very muddy/low and possibly maybe it's old components as well?
b). I did read that the 200A's have thicker reeds than the 200's, so maybe there is less of that bark due to thickness?  Maybe that + the amplifier?
c) I should mention that I did go in to "voice" it with the pickup bar.  Some areas where lower than the rest so I just raising the bars on all of the reeds flush.  I think this helped in balancing the volume, but really did nothing to give it more "bark".  The reeds are now pretty even with the bar. 

Conclusion

I am looking at possibly upgrading the electronics inside the Wurli.  First thing I am curious about is a new amp.  I am considering the Vintage Vibe amp set, since it comes with upgrades to the aux/headphones and vari-vibe etc.  I figure I can do some shielding too and maybe tackle the bit of noise/cackle I'm getting from it...

My big question is, will a new amp have a new sound?  Will the VV amp be less muddy or help with that "bark" I may be looking for?  Or is there a better way to go?  I would like to update a number of components for reliability purposes too so if there's any suggestion please let me know!

I am incredibly grateful for this forum and all the knowledge on it.  I really appreciate anyone who has any advice for me   Thanks!

[pianotuner steveo]

Hey congrats, and welcome to the forum. Tuning a Wurlitzer is not fun. To lower the pitch, first you can try adjusting the reed a little- if you loosen the mounting bolt, then slide the reed away from the bolt end, you may be able to drop the pitch enough. If not, solder needs to be carefully added to the solder pyramid. Be sure the reed does not short out against the sides of the pickup.

Early Letoff: if you do not own the Letoff tool, there is a guy on eBay that sells the best one available.
The lower capstans that touch the keys will not help you, the upper capstans that cause the jacks to trip are the adjustments for Letoff. Yes, raising them towards the reeds will help. Only turn them a little at a time, it's easy to overcompensate. Middle E and F usually need help to turn them with long needle nose pliers.

I have no experience with replacing the electronics, but everyone who has done it seems to be happy with the results.

[Magnets And Melodies]

Hey congrats, and welcome to the forum. Tuning a Wurlitzer is not fun. To lower the pitch, first you can try adjusting the reed a little- if you loosen the mounting bolt, then slide the reed away from the bolt end, you may be able to drop the pitch enough. If not, solder needs to be carefully added to the solder pyramid. Be sure the reed does not short out against the sides of the pickup.

Early Letoff: if you do not own the Letoff tool, there is a guy on eBay that sells the best one available.
The lower capstans that touch the keys will not help you, the upper capstans that cause the jacks to trip are the adjustments for Letoff. Yes, raising them towards the reeds will help. Only turn them a little at a time, it's easy to overcompensate. Middle E and F usually need help to turn them with long needle nose pliers.

I have no experience with replacing the electronics, but everyone who has done it seems to be happy with the results.

Thank you for the reply and the information you shared

Part of the "fun" of figuring this out is that, with no prior experience with these, is that it's hard to tell what is "normal" and what needs some tweaking. 

I figured I would share a couple of things that I've learnt so far and get yours and others thoughts before I start doing work on the 200A.  I feel like I'm starting to become consumed with all of the elements of the piano - but it's very exciting for me too.  Here's what I've learnt so far about a few elements of the 200A that I can start addressing... please PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong, or please let me know if there's something I'm missing!

Tuning

1. First try loosening the reed screw and push forward or backward, depending on if I need it flatter or sharper.  Hopefully if the adjustment is small enough, this should do it.
2. If the tuning adjustment is higher, I'll need to solder or file..  No problem here as I solder guitar parts all the time so I'm used to it, but there's some technique involved apparently.  The amount of solder required is very very small it seems - literally just lightly tinning the tip of the solder and adding a small dot.  It seems important to maintain the "pyramid" shape for proper tuning (I noticed many of the reeds on mine are have various shapes, but they're still in tune so I guess it doesn't matter?).
3. Positioning of the reed.  This seems interesting and I might play with it, but from what I gather, for a proper setup the reed really should be dead centre in between the pickup groove.  Interestingly it seems that some people move it closer to one side to get a louder more barky tone, but it runs the risk of shorting out with the pickup and collecting dust over time possibly.  Maybe I'll try it on a couple notes just to test it out but I'm inclined to keep it centred for proper function.

Another thing that I am looking to learn about is sustain.  I don't know much yet on how to improve sustain but here's my thoughts:

Sustain

1. Make sure notes are not to close to the pickup as this could possibly deaded the sustain.  I'm not sure what to think about this yet as it seems like if it's too close it may just short, but I did see that 1 of my notes (middle B) has very dead sustain - and it's reed is also closer to the left side of the pickup, so I might try adjusting that first.
2. Screw tightness.  I've read that if the reed screws are too tight than it may kill the sustain as well.  I might try experimenting with that, though I'm guessing it may also correlate with the pitch a little too.
3. Dirt/Rust on the reed or reed screw.  Seems like for best function I can look to see if there's any dirt or rust under the screw/reed and clean that off if there's a reed that has poor sustain.

Regarding sustain, is there any other tips/trick that I might look into to fix notes with poor sustain?  At what point do you think it is just a reed replacement?  Infact, is there ever a reason to replace a reed if it's not broke?

Voicing

Ok so this one is what I've been looking into to get that "bark".  Apart from tackling the electronics, I understand that a bigger element of it may just be in adjusting the voicing of the piano, and making sure everything is running optimally.  Here's what I've learnt, and what I've done so far.

1. Reed positioning in the pickup.  The first thing I learnt is how to properly voice the reeds within the pickup grooves.  Optimally it seems like you want the reed centred, with the reed height flush with the pickup for a loud clear sound.  From what I understand, the more "flush" the reed is with the pickup, the louder it will be and the more harmonic content will come out.  By lowering the pickup grooves near the reeds, it'll get a quite more mellow sound (this is what I'm trying to get away from).  So I went in and adjusted the pickup near the reeds so that they're all pretty flush and uniform across the board.  This did improve the dynamics of the fingerboard so that everything is more consistent (there were some weird anomalies when I went in there) but the difference to the tone was very subtle.  Not enough to really get more "bark" or anything, just more consistent which is nice.
2. Hammer tips.  I've heard that clean/rounded or new hammer tips will improve voicing for clarity as well.  I only took a really quick look at mine and it seems that some are depressed/dirty and others are clean and seem ok.. but I guess this makes sense, to get a nice rounded firm hammer VS a depressed on with dirt.  I've heard this is the "other half" to the voicing, so I may look into it further. 
3. Action.  Considering what I've learnt about the hammer tips, it also seems like the action is another element of voicing in a way.. in that, if my action is not working properly (early letoff, hammers not hitting with proper force) than I won't get the proper tone from the reeds.  This is just my guess, but I'm leaning towards assuming that optimal action will be an element in getting optimal tone.

That is pretty much it at this point.. still looking at lots of resources and trying to learn as much as I can before I dive in too deep! Preparation is everything.

Truth be told this 200A is probably 90% there, and many many people may be completely happy leaving it the way it is... but I'm just one of those people who really hone in on that last 10%... (don't even get me started with how deep I go with guitars).  So over-time I am hoping to really get this into an optimal shape, to make it sound like the best Wurli I've ever heard.

Last question - does anybody know why some Wurli's sound brighter/barkier and some Wurli's sound more mellow/muddy?  I've heard that they vary across the board and I find it really interesting that it seems to be a thing.  In the guitar world many chalk it up to "tone wood" (highly debatable of course), but I'm not sure what the factors would be for a Wurli.

[pianotuner steveo]

The earlier non A 200's have better "bark"
There was recently a thread about this.

[pianotuner steveo]

Also, NEVER file the hammer tips in a Wurlitzer. They are too small. Acoustic piano voicing involves filing and needling hammers. Never do this to a Wurlitzer, however.

[Magnets And Melodies]

Thank you! I'm making a note to stay away from the hammer tips! Best I get all this info before touching the thing That's my plan anyway.  I think I'll just focus on tuning those couple keys + improving the letoff on the few keys, then updating the electronics before doing anything else.

[Alan Lenhoff]

On the brightness issue, using an external amp can radically change the sound of a Wurli.  My 140B sounds mellow and soulful through its internal speaker and amp. (Think Muscle Shoals R&B sounds.)  When I play it through my Twin Reverb, it sounds bright, aggressive and metallic. (Like the "nasty" sounds Ian McLagan got with the Small Faces.) The sound you hear in concerts and recordings that you prefer may be impossible to achieve playing the piano through its tinny built-in speakers, which tend to roll off both the bass and treble registers.

I love having the ability to get both kinds of sounds from a Wurli. It's like having two different pianos.

Alan

[Magnets And Melodies]

Thank you for your reply

That was the first thing I considered. I have tried it through 5 amps at home.  A Carr Mercury V, Skylark, Telstar, Hammerhead and a Vox AC4.

It definitely gives it more flexibility in tone, and the drive adds something.  But even then, it's still overly bass/muddy.  I have to turn the bass completely off the amp and just leave treble and mids to get decent tones.  Some very interesting and usable tones for sure! But not anything like that classic bark. This leads me to believe that a new amp, or at least new caps, might bring back some high end.  Just a guess though but maybe worth trying.

I'm looking for a tad more of that harmonic richness / high end VS external amplifier breakup/grit. 

I'm probably just going to get a replacement amp from VV and see how it goes.  Will keep all the originals clean and in tact just in case.  Worst case scenario I'm out a few bucks but I'll still have some reliable electronics (and maybe a bit less noise).  Can't hurt!

[pianotuner steveo]

There is not a lot of high end in a Wurlitzer.  The highest C is less than 3000 hz.
You may be able to bring out a little more bark with EQ and effects, but again, it has a lot to do with the reeds themselves. The 200A series(including 206A) uses thicker reeds than the 140s and non A 200s.

[Magnets And Melodies]

I read this as well.  I think replacing all new reeds seems about as practical as buying a whole new keyboard haha. 

I think what I'm going to do is take it easy for now and focus on improving the action and sustain first.  The more I play it the more I find peculiarities in the action across the board.. I feel like there may be some issues with strike alignment and possibly some tight reed screws. 

I'll still update the transformer and amp for good measure to get things new and reliable, but I'm going to take my time deciding between the VV and the Warneck before doing that, while I focus on improving the action.

[jam88]

There's a lot of low end...I mean that complex harmonic content,

Fact is, with Wurlitzers, there really ISN'T complex harmonic content, particularly in the middle registers.

The 200A series(including 206A) uses thicker reeds than the 140s and non A 200s.

Is this just more mythology? Or can someone actually document dimensional differences between 200 and 200A reeds?

[Alan Lenhoff]

>>Is this just more mythology? Or can someone actually document dimensional differences between 200 and 200A reeds?>>

I've not measured them myself. But several years ago, when I was researching the Wurli chapter for "Classic Keys,"  Tim Warneck of Retrolinear told me that 200A mid-range reeds measure .024" thick, while the 200/140B reeds in that range are .022" thick.  He told me he worked with Ken Rich (of Ken Rich Sound Services) to develop replacement reeds, and they decided to split the difference:  Their replacement reeds were designed to be .023" thick, which Tim described as "pretty darn close" to the originals in any of those pianos.

(BTW, I'm not sure whether they still sell these.)

Alan

[Magnets And Melodies]

And this is why I love this forum

Interesting to hear about the different reed thicknesses.  I've read some say that it makes a difference, and then many say it's negligible. I'm not one to say anything about the topic though haha.

Regarding my plan for this, I'm going to replace the amp for reliability and low noise concerns and hope it gives it a bit of a clearer sounded - but for sound I'm going to focus on the action.  The more I learn, the more I'm figuring out that that is probably where I'm going to get optimal tone. 

The more I play it, the more I realize that I shouldn't be so concerned with bark.  With amps, effects and EQ, I'm able to get that character.  And someone made a good point to me about the "Supertramp" bark - if I play hard and loud enough than I can get pretty close, but I risk breaking reeds... back in the day, they probably toured with multiple Wurli's and extra reeds on hand to repair if they broke.  I do not want to treat mine that hard haha.

So what I'm more focused on now is getting clear and even action, tone and sustain.  The more I play, the more I'm finding out that it's a mixed bag across the board.  Notes vary in sustain widely, and I've found more that suffer from early letoff.  I'd like to get things working optimally.

Does anybody know if a regular piano tech would likely be able to service the action on one of these?

[cinnanon]

Is this just more mythology? Or can someone actually document dimensional differences between 200 and 200A reeds?

https://www.vintagevibe.com/blogs/news/wurlitzer-electric-piano-reeds-case-study

[Magnets And Melodies]

"The thickness went from around .020" on the tongue of a 200 reed to .026" on the 200A, which is considerable but this difference is not easily discernible to the untrained ear, but when combined with the variation in amplifier design from the 200 to 200A, it becomes more audibly apparent. These reeds can easily be interchanged and blended with any of the reeds that came before in the 140B series as well as the 200 models."

Sounds like a amp replacement might have more noticeable results than reed replacement.

I'm still trying to find someone locally to help me with the action.  Might have to take matters into my own hands, but it's going to be a long journey haha.  Local piano guy sent me to an Organ guy :/

[Tines&Reeds]

I do not recommend to replace the whole amp.

If it's basically working, it's worth to rework it... so replace the electrolytics, replace the preamp transistors with low-noise-type (MPSA18 f.e.) and even more important replace the resistors. After that it should be a new game. See this video of us:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xS-K653kJ7Y

Significant! Not related to bark but also important: Shield the AC and put it away from the audio signal!

[pianotuner steveo]

Why would a piano guy refer you to an organ guy for the action? The action is basically a miniature grand piano action with some differences. Look for a different piano tuner. I'm the only one in my area that works on Wurlitzers, but not much call around here anymore. There should be someone near you that can do it.

[sean]

WurliTzer made organs.  To some people, a WurliTzer is an organ.  To other people, a WurliTzer is a juke box.  To less than 1% of people, a WurliTzer is an electric piano.

But really, c'mon, a piano tech that doesn't know the WurliTzer 200A Electric Piano?  You don't want that guy to touch your instrument.

Sean

[pianotuner steveo]

Being a member of the PTG, I know a lot of piano techs, and as far as I know, I'm the only one within 100 miles or so that will touch them. Most piano guys refer to them as junk, or don't even know what they are. One of my friends (a tech) has offered me one for free, but it's been stored in a barn for years. I'm afraid to even see what's been living in it, but someday, I will look. (It's far away) it's either a 700 or a 720, he isn't sure.

[pianotuner steveo]

Magnets and melodies: most Wurlitzer actions mainly need the Letoff adjusted. It's rare for other things needing adjustment unless mice were in it or someone that didn't know what they were doing messed with the action.
Just get the tool on eBay and learn how to do it yourself. It's much cheaper than hiring someone.

Who knows, maybe you will become a tech! That is pretty much how I started. My first Wurlitzer was almost unplayable when I bought it, and my first acoustic piano wouldn't stay in tune so
I took it upon myself to learn how to fix them!

[mvanmanen]

One of the nicest piano techs in town is Bruce Bishoff: https://www.pianoaction.ca
If you move the electronics out of the way then he could probably tweak the let-off.

You're welcome to borrow my let-off tools as well. I have both the the ones from VV as well as Ebay.
It's actually worth owning both as they are slightly different.

They have a bunch of Wurlitzer's at NMC in Calgary (https://www.studiobell.ca) if you want to compare to get a sense of what are reasonable expectations to have a Wurlitzer as far as action. Some years ago John Leimseider had adjusted the action on your Wurlitzer before he passed away. I made some adjustments over the years as well but it had sat idle for sometime so could use some tweaking.

[DocWurly]

Is this just more mythology? Or can someone actually document dimensional differences between 200 and 200A reeds?

https://www.vintagevibe.com/blogs/news/wurlitzer-electric-piano-reeds-case-study

This Vintage Vibe article helped me tremendously as I navigated my initial understanding of Wurlitzer reeds.

It is also notable for some confusing and misleading information.  One of the consistently nutty things is the ongoing columns of "thickness" of reeds.  What IS that measurement?  Upper register Wurlitzer reeds have a thick base, which then tapers, either rapidly or gradually, to a significantly lesser thickness.  But this chart seems to be giving us the thicknesses of only the base, which makes the upper reeds appear to be very, very thick.  and they aren't, where it matters.

They seem to be implying that different eras of Wurlitzer reeds changed tongue widths by 1/1000 of an inch.  That is negligible, and I don't think it's accurate--It's more likely the tolerances of the widths were more like 1/300 of an inch, and as dies dulled, they'd change.

They've also never addressed the 140A series, which should be lumped in with the 140B series.

I am very thankful that the page exists.  Just take it with a grain of salt.

Take my page with a grain of salt, too.  I need to change my terminology ("styles" is a silly term), and I may be underrating the 200A reed differences:

https://docwurly.com/wurlitzer-ep-history/wurlitzer-ep-reed-compatibility-history/

[Electrickey]

If wanting the original tone and response of a Wurli the original amp is key.

I've found that re-flowing solder joints on the original amp in my 200A got rid of all the intermittent noise storms and the amp sounds fine with all original parts.

Many times some get overly concerned about drifting tolerances without considering that although  fixing the amp with new parts may look good on a tolerance sheet, what does it do for the tone?

It's like getting a face lift. You won't sound or look like you anymore.

The tone came from years of aging of the parts. Unless the amp does not work or is in danger of being a fire hazard, would I consider on changing parts without thinking. You won't find the original issue parts in new condition. You will however get reproductions which again will not react like the original.

Most of the character of a vintage electrical musical instrument is that it has old parts and f the parts are original, whatever parts the factory chose in the design, it was serendipitous that the sum of those parts ended up presenting the tone.

The amp may be a designer's nightmare from an electronic engineer's POV but then we're dealing with tone not how well the amp was made.