Wurlitzer 720A (B era) restoration

[wordsandsigns]

I'm restoring my 720A (B era) - see the doc wurly page here: https://docwurly.com/700-series-consoles-keep-em-straight-720-720a-720b-726-b/
It's the solid state version with a 140B amp.

The main issue I'm having is hum in the speaker.  Also when I first switch it on, there's a fuzzy sound that comes through the speaker, and intermittently there's some fuzzy sounds and pops that come through the speaker.

So far, I've replaced all of the polarized electrolytic caps, as well as some of the resistors.  I tied in and soldered some of these components into the leads of the original components, and there's a slight burning small when the amp is switched on which I bet is caused by these tie ins.
I also removed the cable that runs to the phono input, which reduced some noise and increased the clarity of the amp.  I also replaced the built in power cable with an IEC port and removed the "death cap" that runs from the 120V power source to the fuse.

I'm still planning to:
-solder the replacement resistors straight to the circuit board to try to get rid of the burning smell
-replace the can caps with electrolytics mounted inside the chassis (I have some ideas of where to put the replacements, but suggestions are appreciated)
-replace more caps and resistors (I have ordered this kit from Tropical Fish Vintage and haven't installed all of the components yet: https://www.tropicalfishvintage.com/keyboard-parts/wurlitzer-140b-amplifier-rebuild-components )
-I also want to get into the volume and tone knobs on the cheek block and apply contact cleaner.  Does anyone know how to access these potentiometers?

Do you have any other suggestions for removing the hum from the amp?  Am I on the right track?

I also will need to make adjustments to the action of the keyboard, but I want to take care of the electronics first.  Some keys require more force to hit than others.  There are also some keys that are not muting properly.

I can update with some photos later if that would be helpful to see what's going on in and around the amp.

Many thanks!

[Alan Lenhoff]

Regarding the hum, I'm not familiar with your console model, but on my 140B, the piano will hum badly when the lid is removed. The inside of the lid is painted with electrostatic paint, which provides shielding. The lid also is grounded by being tightened so it makes good contact with a braided cable under the lid.

Does the lid on your piano perform a similar shielding/grounding function?  Have you been testing your amp with the lid removed?

Beyond that, the 140B amp is an early solid state design. Re-building the amp will improve it, but some hum and hiss is to be expected. If you need yours to be dead silent for recording, you might want to explore a modern replacement amp from Retrolinear.com (their Warneck Research amps) or other suppliers.

Alan

[wordsandsigns]

I had been testing it with the lid removed, and I'd also wondered if the hum would go away if I put the lid back on.

But then yesterday I turned it on, same as I had before with the lid off, and it was dead silent.  The piano sounded great and clear through the amp, and there was no hum.  Amazing!  I'm not sure what changed, but it sounds great.

Still a small burning smell, so I just soldered the high watt resistors straight to the PCB, and it's still very quiet.  There's still a slight burning smell, but I'm thinking that's just the smell of the resistors getting hot, and that I didn't notice it before because the lid was always on?  Either way, I feel better knowing that those components are making a solid connection with the rest of the circuit.  And in the future I may replace them with higher watt resistors and see if that helps.

I'm going to pause replacing electrical components for the time being because I'm very happy with the sounds, but I have a couple more questions:

-The little cap that goes over the coupled LED/photoresistor came off.  Right now I have it taped onto the board, is there a better way to attach it?  The glue/adhesive between the LED and photoresistor has also come undone, is there a best way to reattach these?    These are ocmponents 20 and 21 in the attached schematic
-You mentioned a shield cable that's attached to the lid screws.  I'm attaching an image of a shield cable at the back of the piano that appears to have been cut.  Should I reattach it?

My next step is to adjust the action on the keys.  As I mentioned, some keys need much more force to play than others.  Also some keys are not damping properly.  Is there a guide to performing this kind of maintenance?

Thanks for all your help!

[wordsandsigns]

Here's a picture of the high watt resistors.  The green ones get the hottest when the amp is on, and they look a little sickly and twisted.  That's my best guess as to where the burning smell is coming from.

[Alan Lenhoff]

>>There's still a slight burning smell, but I'm thinking that's just the smell of the resistors getting hot, and that I didn't notice it before because the lid was always on?>>

Those resistors get very hot.  I've generally seen them mounted a bit above the board, presumably so they don't burn the board.

>>-The little cap that goes over the coupled LED/photoresistor came off.  Right now I have it taped onto the board, is there a better way to attach it?  >>

The original is an incandescent lamp. Maybe yours has been modified. I know Vintage Vibe was selling an LED replacement mod.  Maybe check with them? 

>>I'm attaching an image of a shield cable at the back of the piano that appears to have been cut.  Should I reattach it?>>

If the shielding on the 720A is accomplished like the 140B, that lid definitely needs a connection to ground. If you look closely at the extreme left of this photo (which is of a different Wurli model), you can see a braided ground cable that will make contact with the left edge of the lid when the lid is replaced. https://paleophone.net/?attachment_id=2035

>>As I mentioned, some keys need much more force to play than others.  Also some keys are not damping properly.  Is there a guide to performing this kind of maintenance?>>

Yes. The official service manual goes through this in great detail. I'd never regulated a piano before, but following the manual's instructions, my 140B now plays like a dream. Lubing the action centers is a great place to start before you start making let-off or lost motion adjustments. I tried to attach a copy, but it is larger than this forum will accept.  If you need one, send me a private message with your email, and I'll send it to you.

Alan

[wordsandsigns]

Thanks for all your input.

I lifted the resistors a little bit above the board and that helped a lot with the burning smell.  Makes sense that they shouldn't be in contact with anything when they're that hot!

And I'd love a copy of the service manual.  I'll pm you now.

Thanks again, this is super helpful!

[Alan Lenhoff]

I lifted the resistors a little bit above the board and that helped a lot with the burning smell.  Makes sense that they shouldn't be in contact with anything when they're that hot!

And I'd love a copy of the service manual.  I'll pm you now.

Thanks again, this is super helpful!

Glad to help. I've sent the manual.

Alan

[pianotuner steveo]

The hum in this model is sometimes caused by a worn out volume control.

[pianotuner steveo]

Keys that have to be hit harder are usually letting off way too early. The Letoff tool is available on eBay. This is the single most common action adjustment needed in Wurlitzers.

[wordsandsigns]

Keys that have to be hit harder are usually letting off way too early. The Letoff tool is available on eBay. This is the single most common action adjustment needed in Wurlitzers.

Thank you, I see the letoff tool on ebay for the 720s.  Messaged them to make sure it'll work for mine, then I'll order it.

[wordsandsigns]

Thanks for the tips!  The hum is gone, but there's still some crackling and fuzzy sounds most times I turn it on and play.  I have some time off work in a couple weeks so I'm going to replace more electrical components then.

I want to replace the can capacitors.  I ordered electrolytics with the same capacitance, but do you have any tips on where and how to mount the replacement capacitors inside the chassis?

[pianotuner steveo]

Crackling noises in Wurlitzers can be caused by dust,dirt, pet hair or condensation on the reeds. Condensation happens when moving a Wurlitzer in cold weather, then turning it on too soon when brought indoors. Don't keep wasting money on parts until you are sure that parts are actually bad. Also, condensation can happen if you clean the reeds with compressed air.

If hammers are letting off too early, use the tool to adjust the capstan that trips the jacks. You will be turning the capstan clockwise (it's upside down, so left to right). Don't go too far or hammers may block against the reeds or even break them when hit hard. You may need to use long, needle nose pliers on the E and F n the middle of the keyboard where the metal braces are.

[DocWurly]

If it has a solid state amp, it's a 720B. Unless someone replaced the tube amp in a 720A. The badge (outside, under the keys, front left) should confirm this.

[wordsandsigns]

Maybe someone replaced the tube amp in a 720A?  Here's a picture of the badge

[wordsandsigns]

Thanks so much to everyone for your help.  I'm a teacher, so I've finally been able to get back to working on my wurly on my summer break.

I adjusted the let off on some keys and that really helped the action.  Forgot to lube the action centers first, so I'll do that soon and then readjust the letoff on keys as needed.

I mounted the power resistors above the board, and that's working great.  No smells, no noise.

I'd eventually like to replace the can caps, but since the piano's working well now this isn't a priority.  But does anyone have advice for mounting/wiring replacement caps when the time comes?

The vibrato isn't very deep.  I'm thinking that there might be some light leaking under the enclosure for the lamp/photoresistor coupling.  Any tips on how to get that as close to stock as possible?

Thank so much for everyone's help!

[wordsandsigns]

One more thing!  I'd like to modify the headphone jack to be dual mono instead of only coming out of the left channel.  I'm doing some research on this now, but tips are appreciated.  Thanks!

[cinnanon]

If you convert the jack from Mono to Stereo, BE CAREFUL. If someone unknowingly plugs in a Mono jack, the Amp signal will be shorted to ground and you'll likely blow the amp. The safer option is to make an external "Mono-to-Stereo" converter using an aluminum Hammond box or something similar.

Most amplifiers these days have dedicated Headphone circuits that can be shorted to ground without issue. The Wurlitzer Headphone signal is tapped directly off the amplifier's power output.

[pianotuner steveo]

RE the headphone Jack: you need to replace that Jack with a stereo Jack and just connect the 2 (+) terminals together, then the sound will come through both sides. Be sure to use a Jack that cuts out the speaker.

[wordsandsigns]

Hello all,

Back working on my wurly after a while.  Right now dealing with no piano sound coming out of the speaker!

The piano had been making a fuzzy sound in the speakers every time I turned it on, and generally low volume that cut out sometimes.  I opened it up to replace the components from the vintage vibe kit.  I started by replacing R3 and R5 (see attached schematic).  Tested for continuity at the terminals, all connections seemed fine.

Then I noticed a loose solder connection between C2 and the input RCA jack.  Convinced this was the cause of the low volume issue, I replaced C2 and R1, the resistor that's also attached to the input RCA jack.

Now when I plug the amp in and turn it on, the pilot light comes on, the same fuzzy sound comes through the speaker, but I get no audio from the keys.

Any ideas what could be wrong?

[wordsandsigns]

Just took some voltage readings.  I'm getting 150V where I should be getting 180 (on the other side of R1).

Any ideas on how to fix this are greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

[pianotuner steveo]

I'm not an expert with the electronics section, but I do know this, check for open fuses and resistors first, or it could be the output transistor. I once saw a transformer go bad causing similar symptoms.

[wordsandsigns]

Thanks.  Hope it's not the transformer!

[Jenzz]

Just took some voltage readings.  I'm getting 150V where I should be getting 180 (on the other side of R1).

Any ideas on how to fix this are greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Hi :-)

This is quite normal. Keep in mind that the 180V voltage is fed via a 2M2 (42) resistor into the last cap (44).

If you connect a multimeter, the input resistance of the multimeter (10Meg in most cases) will form a voltage divider with this 2M2. The result will be a roundabout 150V reading at C44.

Jenzz

[wordsandsigns]

Just took some voltage readings.  I'm getting 150V where I should be getting 180 (on the other side of R1).

Any ideas on how to fix this are greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Hi :-)

This is quite normal. Keep in mind that the 180V voltage is fed via a 2M2 (42) resistor into the last cap (44).

If you connect a multimeter, the input resistance of the multimeter (10Meg in most cases) will form a voltage divider with this 2M2. The result will be a roundabout 150V reading at C44.

Jenzz

Thanks for this!  Good info.  I started replacing some components between the transformer and keyboard input (R41, R42, and R45), hoping that would help the voltage get back to 180, but maybe I don't need to worry about that.

Any other ideas what might be causing my issue?

I'm able to inject a guitar signal into the phono input on the circuit and it comes out of the speaker clearly.
I'm getting +-32.5V at the output section.
Can't help but think the issue is somewhere in the connection between the keyboard and amp.

Any ideas are greatly appreciated!

Cheers

[Jenzz]

Hi :-)

Did you check the cable from the RCA jack going to the pickup system? What about the voltage directly at the pickup electrode? Remember that there is an additional 10Meg in series, so voltage reading will only roundabout 70 V.

Since you have a good signal when plugging into the phono: Do you obtain the marked 12V at the collector of T1 ?


Jenzz

[velo-hobo]

@wordsandsigns apologies if I missed this being addressed previously, but have you noticed if fussing with the volume knob has any affect on the "fuzzy" sounds? My first hunch with fuzzy or crackly sounds from any piece of older or heavily-used gear with a volume knob is that the potentiometer has some crud inside of it, or some other factor that would mess up the continuity of the signal.

With a Wurlitzer EP, "fuzzy" sounds I hear have often traceable to dirt/crud/moisture in the pickup and reed/ground interface, but it sounds like you're not getting signal from your pickup.

Another place I've noticed issues, particularly in my 720 (non-A, non-B, with tube amp), is at the RCA jack for the pickup. Fussing with that connection sometimes makes all kinds of horrible sounds come out. I've tried contact cleaner but I think the next step for me is replacing the entire wiring harness and connector hardware, which some pro techs recommend anyway as a means of reducing noise floor in this model (along with relocating the power switch away from the volume pot and down to the rear panel of the amp)

So if your RCA cable is original you might consider replacing it with a new one. But before I would bother with that, I'd double check all the solder joints in this part of the circuit to make sure none of them are iffy.

[wordsandsigns]

Hi :-)

Did you check the cable from the RCA jack going to the pickup system? What about the voltage directly at the pickup electrode? Remember that there is an additional 10Meg in series, so voltage reading will only roundabout 70 V.

Since you have a good signal when plugging into the phono: Do you obtain the marked 12V at the collector of T1 ?


Jenzz

Ok I am getting 83.3V at the pickup electrode.  Surprised because I thought for sure there's a bad connection somewhere in the RCA jack!  I'll replace the RCA cable with a new one just in case.

Aha!  Readings at TR1 are all wrong: I'm getting 16V at the collector, 0.28V at the emitter, 0V at the base.

Should I start replacing resistors in that part of the circuit?  Looking at R4, R7, R8, R9, R12.

(Reading at the collector of TR2 is 9.8V where it should be 7.8.  The readings at the emitter and base of TR2 are fine though)

Many many thanks for your help!

[wordsandsigns]

Just replaced practically all the resistors in that part of the circuit (R27, R28, R29, R30, R31, R32, R33, R34, R36 - and I had replaced R35 and R37 earlier which initially caused this issue).  Still no sound, now reading 15.6V at the collector of TR1 where I want to see 12V.

Is the transistor not doing its job anymore and in need of replacement?

Always grateful for all the excellent help I get here!

[Jenzz]

Hi :-)

Since the input buffer (T1) stage draws no significant current (not voltage drop accross R12), i think T1 will be damaged.

I would also recommend the change C11 (filter) and C6 (feedback). Electrolytic caps of this age are prone to high leakage, loosing capacity or being shorted.

Jenzz

[wordsandsigns]

Hi :-)

Since the input buffer (T1) stage draws no significant current (not voltage drop accross R12), i think T1 will be damaged.

I would also recommend the change C11 (filter) and C6 (feedback). Electrolytic caps of this age are prone to high leakage, loosing capacity or being shorted.

Jenzz

Wonderful, thank you!  I'll order a replacement right away.  I believe I already replaced those caps earlier (I'll check when I get home).  I will eventually replace all of the big old red capacitors in the amp, they are very old...

Searching for a replacement - when I searched the part number, this transistor came up: https://vetco.net/products/2n3904-bc547-pn2222-2n4401-npn-transistor-nte123ap

Does that look like the correct replacement?  Not sure where else to find information on which transistor is in there.

I appreciate you!

[Jenzz]

Hi :-)

All of these transistors will work (watch for different pinout!), but since this is the first stage, a low noise typ should be the choice. I would recommend MPSA18 or 2SC1845 for the first stage (again, watch out for different pinout)....


Jenzz

[wordsandsigns]

Hi :-)

All of these transistors will work (watch for different pinout!), but since this is the first stage, a low noise typ should be the choice. I would recommend MPSA18 or 2SC1845 for the first stage (again, watch out for different pinout)....


Jenzz

Ok, I just put in a new transistor to T1 (I ordered these).

Still no sound, and I'm getting the same readings at the legs of the transistor as before!
E: oscillates from 0.15 - 0.3V
C: 15.7V
B: 0V

Any ideas what could be happening in there?

[wordsandsigns]

Fixed it!

Should have thought of this sooner, but since I was reading 0V at the base of T1, I checked if it was shorted to ground - sure enough it was!

After a bit of looking I saw a component lead that had got caught between the board and the chassis.  Snipped the lead and now it sounds great!

Still have a bit of work to do in there, but for now I'm going to enjoy that it works after being out of commission for a bit.

Thanks again to everyone for all your help!