Vintage Vibe Miracle Mod Question

[Rhodesman88]

Does any body know the dimentions of the V.V. Miracle Mod and what is is made of?  From the pictures that I've seen, it appears to be some sort of 1/2 round plastic or nylon.  Does it span the complete width of the key/hammer pedestel ( approx 3/8"), or is is shorter.  How tall is is approximately?

[pianotuner steveo]

It is plastic, it is the whole width, but I do not know how tall. I sold the piano I put the mod in a few years ago......

[Alan Lenhoff]

Several years ago, when I ordered some Rhodes parts from another vintage keyboard boutique, they threw in a free Miracle Mod-type kit.  It was nothing more than about a dozen nylon zip ties that you were supposed to cut to fit the width of the pedestals, and an instruction sheet that basically said you ought to experiment with the positioning of them until you find a location that works for you. (I think their online price for this kit was about $30!)

I never actually installed it, so I'm hardly an expert on these.  But it seems to me that since the design of the key pedestals varied over the years, and since your pedestal felts may be thinner or thicker than those on many other Rhodes pianos (based upon wear or replacement), this is hardly an exact science.

If I were interested in doing the mod, I'd just buy an assortment of zip ties, and install them on a handful of keys until I found a size and placement that felt the best. 

Alan

[pianotuner steveo]

Alan, the actual kit from VV has plastic that is thicker than zip ties. I do not think a zip tie would be enough benefit to make it worth installing. I would estimate their bumps to be twice as thick as a zip tie, but also the shape of the VV bumps is more like a mini speed bump

Remember that exact placement is crucial, and you should put new felt OVER these. The felt needs to be thin enough to retain the shape of the bumps.

If anyone wants to experiment with zip ties to see if there is a benefit, I suggest trying to slide them in underneath the pedestal felt somehow. ( xacto knife maybe)

[Alan Lenhoff]

Alan, the actual kit from VV has plastic that is thicker than zip ties. I do not think a zip tie would be enough benefit to make it worth installing. I would estimate their bumps to be twice as thick as a zip tie, but also the shape of the VV bumps is more like a mini speed bump

That may well explain why Speakeasy doesn't seem to sell its zip tie kit any more. (I'll have to dig them out and look at them to see if they were thicker than a typical zip tie.)

How about these as an alternative?

http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/pls/pls90885.htm

Not sure if the dimensions of that one would be right, but you can readily find inexpensive half-round styrene strips in a variety of sizes from hobby shops, since they are used for modeling.  To my eye, they look just like what VV is using in its YouTube installation video.

Which takes us back to one of the original poster's questions:  How tall is the plastic strip in the VV kit?

Alan

[Rhodesman88]

Alan, the actual kit from VV has plastic that is thicker than zip ties. I do not think a zip tie would be enough benefit to make it worth installing. I would estimate their bumps to be twice as thick as a zip tie, but also the shape of the VV bumps is more like a mini speed bump

Remember that exact placement is crucial, and you should put new felt OVER these. The felt needs to be thin enough to retain the shape of the bumps.

If anyone wants to experiment with zip ties to see if there is a benefit, I suggest trying to slide them in underneath the pedestal felt somehow. ( xacto knife maybe)

Thanks for the input.  I'm restoring/refurbishing a 1977 suitcase piano with the felts on the hammers...not the key pedastal.  I've seen a YouTube vid from V.V. showing the MM on this type of key setup.  I was just wondering how high the bumps were to get an idea of clearance and escapement adjustments...if they need to be done.

[pianotuner steveo]

The original Rhodes mod for the bumps required removing the white felt that you have, then adding felt OVER the bumps on the pedestals.the original bumps were felt. I think adding the felt over the bumps helps to keeps them in place.

Alan, 5/32" may be too wide.  I wish I had a spare bump to measure....

I estimate the VV height to be roughly as tall as 2 regular 4" zip ties are thick...

[Alan Lenhoff]

I estimate the VV height to be roughly as tall as 2 regular 4" zip ties are thick...

I just pulled out my unused Speakeasy bump kit, and the zip ties it came with are 7" long, so they're probably thicker than the ones you mentioned. There's nothing special about them, however; they're the same things you'd find at any hardware store.  As I mentioned, I never used them on the 1973 Rhodes I used to own, so I have no experience to relate.

My current 1979 Rhodes has factory bumps, and I really like the action. So, there's no bump mod in my future.

Alan

[zippertafari]

tempted to give this a try (Mark I 73) but there seems to be too many variables to ensure I get it right...
If anyone in the UK (London) area knows of a good product, or has an idea how to go about this - would be good to hear from you.
Z

[pianotuner steveo]

Oh the product is easy to use, you just need to place them in the correct spot....

Somewhere here is a post showing best placement....

[zippertafari]

thanks - will look into this.

[Rhodesman88]

Alan, the actual kit from VV has plastic that is thicker than zip ties. I do not think a zip tie would be enough benefit to make it worth installing. I would estimate their bumps to be twice as thick as a zip tie, but also the shape of the VV bumps is more like a mini speed bump

That may well explain why Speakeasy doesn't seem to sell its zip tie kit any more. (I'll have to dig them out and look at them to see if they were thicker than a typical zip tie.)

How about these as an alternative?

http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/pls/pls90885.htm

Not sure if the dimensions of that one would be right, but you can readily find inexpensive half-round styrene strips in a variety of sizes from hobby shops, since they are used for modeling.  To my eye, they look just like what VV is using in its YouTube installation video.

Which takes us back to one of the original poster's questions:  How tall is the plastic strip in the VV kit?

Alan

Alan,

Thanks for the link to the hobby site.  I live in Milwaukee and Wm. K. Walthers and their Terminal Hobby Shop is located here so I have a direct source for any building materials.  Plastruct is a nice product, but I believe the Evergreen Plastic has a wider variety of 1/2 round plastic strips.  I just need to know the height, or actually the thickness of the mod.  Once I get that dimention it's easy to figure out the nominal dimesnion using geometry.

Rob

[Alan Lenhoff]

[I just need to know the height, or actually the thickness of the mod.  Once I get that dimention it's easy to figure out the nominal dimesnion using geometry.

The thought of actually using geometry makes me break out in hives.  (I think one of my motivations in marrying a mathematician was to ensure I would never have to help my kids with math homework.  It worked, too.) 

But how would geometry be useful here?  Since these are half-rounds, the width is exactly twice the height. So, if you have either dimension, the other is self-evident.

And, unless I'm missing something, geometry won't help you determine the position of the bump, either.  There are some excellent guidelines you'll find in the archives and in VV's videos, but mostly it's just a case of experimenting until you find your sweet spot, right?

Alan

[Tim Hodges]

Alan I've got some of the bump leftover, I'll dig it out and take a photo with it next to the ruler.

Watch this space...

[Rhodesman88]

[I just need to know the height, or actually the thickness of the mod.  Once I get that dimention it's easy to figure out the nominal dimesnion using geometry.

But how would geometry be useful here?  Since these are half-rounds, the width is exactly twice the height. So, if you have either dimension, the other is self-evident.

Alan

Alan, You're right about the geometry.  I just wasn't thinking regarding the nominal dimensions.  The V.V. video shows the MM already installed.  It has a side shot of the key pedestal with the MM on it.  I could pause the video and use a ruler on the screen to get measurements of the pedastal - just the pedastal itself and then an over all measurment with the MM on it...then just do a proportional calculation and transfer that to the actual piano parts.

[Tim Hodges]

The strip of plastic is 2mm high by 3mm wide.

[pianotuner steveo]

2mm x3mm...what is that in English (lol) I mean American?

I noticed a lot of you mention weight in KG. Some of us Americans dont know what that translates too....
The metric system never caught on here.

[Tim Hodges]

Here we go:

[Alan Lenhoff]

Here we go:

I don't mean to parse this to death, but for the benefit of the record we leave behind in the archives:

Were you measuring with a precise instrument, such as calipers, or just lining up the piece with a ruler?  The measurements you're providing would not be an actual half-round piece.  That's possible, but it would likely have required Vintage Vibe to have the pieces custom manufactured.

A standard 1/8" x 1/16" half round piece from a hobby shop would measure 3.2 mm x 1.6 mm (compared to the 3mm x 2mm you measured.)  Do you think that's within in the margin of error of what you measured?  And, if not, I'd think it would be close enough anyway. (The 0.4 mm difference in height would be about 1/100" of an inch!  You might get that much variation based upon how much glue you use on each bump.)  http://www.amazon.com/MRH-125-Half-Round-Rod-125-5/dp/B0000WS9SS

On the VV installation video, you can see the piece pretty well at about 5:40.  It's impossible to be sure from the video, but it looks like a half-round to me.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsmgiEt5Pc0

Alan

[Tim Hodges]

A standard 1/8" x 1/16" half round piece from a hobby shop would measure 3.2 mm x 1.6 mm (compared to the 3mm x 2mm you measured.)  Do you think that's within in the margin of error of what you measured?  And, if not, I'd think it would be close enough anyway. (The 0.4 mm difference in height would be about 1/100" of an inch!  You might get that much variation based upon how much glue you use on each bump.)  http://www.amazon.com/MRH-125-Half-Round-Rod-125-5/dp/B0000WS9SS

Now you mention it Alan, I've re-measured it and it is 3.2mm x 1.6mm (I took the first measurements as soon as I woke up!)

T

[Alan Lenhoff]

Cool.  Thanks. So we've found sources for bumps that match. Any good contact cement (Goop, Weldwood) ought to hold them in place. 

But what about the felts?  Last time I replaced pedestal felts, I had to glue them on.  The VV kit comes with what they call Steinway felts, and they're self-adhesive, which seems like a real convenience.

Anyway know a source for similar felts?  Or at least the specs for them (width and thickness)?

Alan

[pianotuner steveo]

You want real thin felt. Its purpose is to reduce noise and to help hold the bumps, and it needs to be thin enough to conform to the shape of the bumps. Too thick may cause problems. Piano nameboard felt may work, the self adhesive kind....

[SlowMonroe]

As long as the nameboard felt wasn't too wide, it would work. I have some parts from the VV MM kit here and the "steinway" felts were the size of thin key bushing felts (they were adhesive though), and actually not long enough for the rhodes I was working on!

[SlowMonroe]

The mod works very well BTW. It's not very hard, as long as you're okay taking apart your rhodes.

[zippertafari]

Really want to apply the Miracle Mod (to my Mk I Rhodes (1973 - 73 key). But am not at all confident yet about pulling it apart. I've only had it 2 months.
Am based in the London area so if there is anyone around there who has experience of applying the mod would be good to hear from you.
Other than that I guess its checking out You Tube and this forum. But its a big step from reading/watching it on the internet and pulling my Rhodes apart. 

[guillex]

Hi, I've just read this old but extremely useful...and I can't find a solution to my problem. After installing the bumps (In 2 keys, on 2 different positions) I found out that the bottom of the key never touch the front rail felt (under the key)...even using the Piano Front Rail Felts of 6 mm hight! What I am doing wrong? 

[Alan Lenhoff]

Good news! It's not supposed to hit the front rail felt. Here's a quote from The Rhodes Supersite from Steve Woodyard, who was a Rhodes engineer:

"Note that unlike an acoustic piano, the key is not to hit the guide rail felt washer or strip at the bottom of the keystroke. That felt is there for excessive key travel, to protect the key from being broken. If the key hits the guide felt before the hammer/pedestal stop lock action occurs, double-striking will occur."

Alan