Yamaha Cp's Anyone?

[coachdobbs]

Has anyone owned or DOES anyone own one of the old Yamaha Cp's such as the CP70, CP80, etc. Can anyone give me some personal experiences with them or some advice on buying, upkeep, etc. etc.

[Dan Belcher]

While I have a Yamaha CP, it's unfortunately a CP-30.  It's not an electric piano.  It's all electronic.  The sounds aren't exactly fantastic and the key action is pretty ugly.  Only paid $90 for it at least because I was willing to drive to pick it up.

Hopefully someone else has experience with the actual electric piano CP70, etc.  Those things sound fantastic.

[HammondToby]

I don't own one, but a friend of mine has a CP70 that I played extensively. The keybed is like the one of a grand piano, very defined, the right wight... Without amplification, it sounds like a piano under a blanket, with amplification it sounds wonderful. No comparison to any sample I ever played. It's like the difference between Rhodes and a very good sampleset, you'll know, when you sit in front of the real thing.

Can't give you any recommendations or tips for the purchase, but if I had the opportunity to buy one, I'd do it.

Best regards
HammondToby

[SchroderMusic]

I own a CP-70b I love it, the weight is perfect it plays like a dream.  I have heard it was modeled after a Steinway, and the low end sure feels and sounds like it.  It definitely has it own sound though, so it isn't going to sound exactly like a regular grand piano and it has this boost in the high overtones when you us it direct in.  But I run mine through a channel switch into a stereo graphic equalizer and then into a custom two 12 cab that is powered by a Realistic PA, I can get some of the best sounds out of this piano.  I can boost the low end and make it sound as big as a bass guitar.  I also us an Electro-Harmonix Black Finger tube compression on it and it smooths it out and gives you even more great sounds.  I really don't think anything compares to this piano sound, and it would be a great thing to have in your repertoire of keyboards.  If you want to know just ask?

[Dan Belcher]

I missed out on an opportunity to buy a CP-70B for cheap just 25 miles from my house a few weeks back -- I sent the seller a message while I was at work that I was interested and wanted to see it in person before deciding, but someone else was willing to buy it right then just an hour after I sent that message.  I'm still disappointed by that.  

[daniel_muschinsky]

HI!

I've had a CP80 for a couple of years now... I got it with cases and a Hohner D6 for 6.000 danish kroner (about 1.000 usd).

I haven't gigged with it yet, but I rented it out to a major danish act last year and he got it tuned up for me.

I use it in the studio where it sits and it sounds freakin wonderful.  This piano has toured extensively in it's cases and it plays perfectly! It seems to hold it's tune prety well.

D

[tjjazzpiano]

Post some pictures you guys!  I keep seeing them on Craigslist.

[atraintocry]

check youtube for "video killed the radio star"

that's the way to do it...rhodes in one hand, cp in the other.

[nick]

yeah, the CPs are awesome and upkeep is a breeze because it's basically a piano so servicing them is, at worst, contacting a Yamaha piano dealer.  The CPs have only one string on the lowest notes and 2 for the rest so, as someone else noted, they have their own distinct sound and are a little trickier to tune than a real piano, particularly the lowest notes.

That said a friend of mine has toured extensively with a CS60 (the upright, plastic model) and, though it needs tuning every couple of shows, having it tuned is never any harder than finding a local piano tuner.

[VintageSoul]

I just bought a CP70b (I have yet to pick it up from the seller though).  Being completely new to these things, I have a few questions.

1) how often do you need to tune them? i know this will depend on how much you move them, the temperature fluctuation's, etc.  I just want to know in general how long most owners go between tunings.

2) what do you need to tune them? I've found many articles on tuning "real" pianos and you need rubber mutes, the hammer and a tuner... is this pretty much the case with the CPs?

3) what do you tune them to?  do you tune middle C with a tuner then fan out across the the rest of the keyboard by ear as with a regular piano of do you simply tune each note to a chromatic tuner?

4) where are some good places to get strings / other parts for the CPs?

I can't wait to pick it up and start playing it!  I've wanted one of these for quite some time now.

[atraintocry]

i don't have one. but from what i have read:

1. like you said, it depends on if you move it, and if the humidity and temperature change around it. but it seems like it needs less tuning than an acoustic overall.

2. a regular piano tuning wrench. none of the notes have three strings, so you only need a single-string mute, not the kind that does the two outer strings.

3. you need to stretch tune it. this means that a tuner, unless you have a really advanced tuner, is not going to cut it for all but the middle octave. also, the math doesn't start at middle C, but at the A above it (440 Hz). middle C should be 261.63, which you can get with a fork, tuner, or by counting beats against the A.

so one way to do it is to start at middle C, and go one octave up and one octave down, and make sure that they are equal tempered. then you tune each note against its higher and lower octaves. C2 against C3, D2, against D3, etc. then you check the intervals within each octave to make sure that none sound too off.

it's a difficult job (the rhodes is somewhat easier, since it's one tine per note and there's the offset chart). but if you end up getting frustrated, it should be a quick job for someone who tunes acoustic pianos by trade.

4. cp strings are here, dunno about the rest: http://www.mapeswire.com/

be careful. if the thing is way flat in general, then you should tighten them all by some small, even amount and then let it settle for a day or two, then do it again, etc. making large differences to the pitch in one shot is not good for the strings, the pins, or the bridge.

[kitchen]

Ep service in Holland services these gems. Why not ask a specialist ? They also sell some parts for them.

Kitchen

[nick]

if you dont move them they're pretty stable with the lower, single stringed notes being a little less so.  If this is the case, it's well worth paying a professional piano tuner every so often.

[mendokusai]

I had a CP-20, it was great if you wanted gameboy/8-bit piano sounds.

Humidity was a bitch though. Worked great some places, other places, not at all.

But like a rhodes, it was heavy as hell.

[pianotuner steveo]

OK Here's my 2 cents worth about the Cp70's and 80's. Being a piano tuner that specializes in Yamaha pianos, I have tuned many of these-but not so much lately. Anyway,yes, you do tune these with conventional acoustic piano tuning tools. Unfortunately, these are VERY difficult to tune- the inharmonicity is horrible and they are very tricky to get to sound correct in the bass AND in the treble.

My best advice is this- if you own one or want to buy one, you should learn how to tune it yourself.They don;t stay in tune very well, and tunings in this area are getting close to $100 each now-the price does vary in other parts of the country.
These pianos need to be tuned SEVERAL times a year.(If you are picky)

As far as tuning method- no, you don't start on middle C- you start on the note A440 (A above middle c), then tune the A below it. You fan out in both directions tuning the 4ths,5ths, octaves, etc. Tuning the bass last seems to help with tuning stability, so I tune tenor, then treble, then bass.

NEVER start at one end and tune all the way up to the other end- the first notes will be out of tune again when you finish.One brand of electronic tuner tells you to do this- this is the dumbest way to tune a piano I have ever heard of!

BE CAREFUL- breaking a piano string is not fun, especially for novices, and in grands, bass strings can actually shoot out of the piano when they break. (dangerous!) The plain steel strings come in different guages on a spool, and 2 strings are actually one loop of wire. The bass strings need to be duplicated at a piano supply house if they break-a tuner will need to do this for you.You need the broken string so don't discard them if they break.

You can still use the felt temprament strips to tune these-it saves a lot of time if you do, just loop it over every other string.

Despite what someone else said- these are the single most difficult piano/EP with strings I have ever tuned, and  they neeed to be tuned MORE often,not less often than other pianos.Remember, these don't have a cast iron plate to help with the tuning stability.

[raemon80]

CP30.....do it or leave it?

[tnelson]

A couple of information sources you might find very sobering are the piano technicians' discussion groups at PTG (Piano Technicians Guild) and PianoWorld.  This is where professional techs (mostly in US) for acoustic pianos swap information. Every time the Yamaha CP's come up, almost all of the techs agree with the views you just read above by SteveO:  they are horrible to tune and maintain.  Of course, if you are amplifying the output in a rock context, the fine tuning that is the goal for tuning an acoustic piano may be irrelevant.

[Dan Belcher]

CP30.....do it or leave it?

I grabbed my crappy handheld voice recorder and made you an MP3 of my CP-30 to help your decision making process.

http://www.filefactory.com/file/118741/n/CP30-ikyr_mp3 (left click to download)

This is a quick bit of me playing on it with Piano 1, 2, AND 3 all selected on channel 1, and Harpsichord selected on channel 2 and the two mixed together until they sounded good.  This is probably the best sound you can get out of the CP-30, though running it through an effects pedal such as chorus, phaser, etc. may give you a cool sound.  This was recorded off my Fender Hot Rod Deluxe, with just a little reverb from the amp to help fatten up the sound.

I had trouble playing this actually since the action is very unlike a Rhodes or acoustic piano.  Kinda bouncey, lightweight (the keys are weighted, but even weighting across the keyboard).  It takes awhile to get used to the feel.  Also, if you hold the sustain pedal down and repeat a note, the volume of the note swells.  You also can't catch a note with the sustain pedal after hitting the key, you have to have the sustain pedal depressed before playing the note or it won't sustain at all.

[raemon80]

Super thanks, Dan.
I saw some vids on youtube as well and after listening to your .mp3, I must say...there's something about that sound that is interesting. I can definitely see myself using it in a production/mix.
I came across 2 of these and I was wondering if it's worth getting one....they are kinda big, though...

[MikeMalone]

Mr. Dan Belcher...I detect a little "It Keeps You Running"....NICE!! Anyone who is down with McDonald is down with me!!!

"we'll keep the spirit aliiiiive"

[Dan Belcher]

That was indeed It Keeps You Runnin'.  Not played very well mind you since I haven't played that song in MONTHS.  I barely remembered how it went.  Throw it bouncey, weird action on those keys and that was a trip to play!  

[MikeMalone]

Wasn't "My Life" from Billy Joel done on a Yamaha CP piano? I believe it was the CP-70...

[Dan Belcher]

Yes, Billy Joel used a CP-70 electric grand piano on My Life and All For Leyna.  Genesis used a CP-70 quite often on songs like That's All and Heathaze.  Here's a nice clip of David Paich playing one in a live version of Georgy Porgy by Toto.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWj4iHx6EIY&fmt=18

[Screenery]

3. you need to stretch tune it. this means that a tuner, unless you have a really advanced tuner, is not going to cut it for all but the middle octave. also, the math doesn't start at middle C, but at the A above it (440 Hz). middle C should be 261.63, which you can get with a fork, tuner, or by counting beats against the A.

so one way to do it is to start at middle C, and go one octave up and one octave down, and make sure that they are equal tempered. then you tune each note against its higher and lower octaves. C2 against C3, D2, against D3, etc. then you check the intervals within each octave to make sure that none sound too off.

Does anyone have stretch tuning table for a CP-70B? I'd like to become proficient in tuning mine, but I don't know how to stretch tune, and I've heard that different instruments require different types of stretch tuning. Take a Rhodes vs. a Kurzweil vs. a Steinway D, for example:
Rhodes: http://www.fenderrhodes.org/rhodes/manual/ch5.html
Steiny D and Kurzweil: http://www.precisionstrobe.com/apps/stretchdata/stretchdata.html

If anyone could get me a set of stretch values (if such a recommended value set exists for the CP-70B), I'd greatly appreciate it.

Should I do stretch tuning for my Helpinsteel Roadmaster 88 too? Any suggestions on that would be appreciated.

[Rob A]

Hey Screenery--the stretch is to accommodate inharmonicity in the strings. So instruments with different strings require different stretch factors.

It may be worth finding a tech with a Sanderson accu-tuner and getting the table for your specific instrument from that.

http://www.accu-tuner.com/pdfs/2007_SAT_III.pdf

Have a read-- the accu-tuner manual explains a lot about tuning.

[Spaceduck]

I found a great stretch tuning chart for the CP-70 on page 11 of the Users Guide
http://safemanuals.com/user-guide-instructions-owner-manual/YAMAHA/CP-70B-_E

I'm not a pro piano tuner, but using that chart + my trusty Fender RT1000 tuner, I tuned all 73 notes in under 2 hours. Really easy & it sounds Schaweeet. Good luck!

P.S. My general opinion of the CP-70... AMAZING. The action is better than the concert grands I've played. Fast scales & runs are smooth as butter, and trills are like leetle hummingbirds wings. Try doing that with a Rhodes!

The downside: weighs a ton. A TON. Not for gigging unless you've got a team of expendable roadies to do the back breaking for you. Also, good luck finding parts for the thing. There's a company in the Netherlands who will sell you a used hammer for $80. I'm not exaggerating.

[Screenery]

Thank you Spaceduck. That's exactly what I needed!

Ditto on the weight and action.

[coachdobbs]

I have the same manual, I was wodnering how to read the tuning curve. I dont quite understand how it relates to actually tuning the piano. Any help on this would be AWESOME!

[Spaceduck]

Screenery - glad I could help!

coach - yeah it can be a little confusing, especially since they didn't label the values. Here's what I gather...



The number (-20 to +20) tells us how many cents flat or sharp we're supposed to tune each string. So for example you'd tune the lowest E about 13 cents flat.

Most guitar/bass tuners will show you how many cents flat/sharp you are, so there's no need to do the actual calculation in Hertz. But just in case your tuner goes by Hz, here's a chart for a "theoretically ideal piano"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_key_frequencies

Now go to it!

[pianotuner steveo]

Another great Cd to listen to to hear the CP 70 or 80 is Waiting for Columbus by Little Feat. Billy Payne used one on several tracks.

[pianotuner steveo]

Also, Billy Joel did use one on My Life, but i THINK he also doubled the track on a regular acoustic piano,or at least the bass part.The bass sounds too good to be just the CP. When I midi the 2 sounds together, it sounds more like the recording than just the CP by itself.

[sean]

Billy Payne is the piano player I always wished I could be.

Waiting for Columbus is the album nonpareil.


For me, the piano sounds on Oh Atlanta and Dixie Chicken are the definition of perfect rock piano tone, and also style.   The perfect modernization of Johnnie Johnson, et al.

As a kid, I grew up with Elton John's Honky Chateau, but Billy Payne changed everything.

[pianotuner steveo]

As far as the tuning curve goes....I use that chart as a rough guide. That is what they suggest to do to make it sound correct, but every piano is different,so I use my ears as the final judge. The chart in general is correct though, the bass needs to be tuned real flat and the treble needs to be tuned quite sharp (Be careful to not break strings!) in order for it to sound reasonable.

[/i]

[funkin]

hi guys can you tell
me what is a good way to pack  cp70 for shipping,
(what materials to use and say precisely how  to pack)
thanks!

[jus]

I've recently fell in love with the CP's. I don't know what Steve used on the album, but this is a great video with the CP.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftzOFm1NXwY

[Spaceduck]

I've recently fell in love with the CP's. I don't know what Steve used on the album, but this is a great video with the CP.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftzOFm1NXwY

Good one! Here's another classic CP70 tune
"Video Killed the Radio Star"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWtHEmVjVw8

He has a Rhodes behind him which he plays toward the end, but I don't hear it. That CP70, though... such a defining sound of the 80s ("New Year's Day" - U2, "In Your Eyes" - Gabriel, etc).

And if you've ever peeked under the hood of one, it's a marvel to see. I'm so shocked the idea of amplified string pianos never caught on.

P.S. Funkin, did you ever figure out how to pack one up?

[funkin]

so far i decided to build custom crates for both cases it breaks into...
what do you think is good variant to keep mechanism and strings safe
while shipping?

[pianorocker]

I have the cp-60m upright with eq and midi it is great...I trade my rhodes for it  :oops: .  Now I want a rhodes 54 to take out.

[jus]

I've recently fell in love with the CP's. I don't know what Steve used on the album, but this is a great video with the CP.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftzOFm1NXwY

Good one! Here's another classic CP70 tune
"Video Killed the Radio Star"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWtHEmVjVw8

He has a Rhodes behind him which he plays toward the end, but I don't hear it. That CP70, though... such a defining sound of the 80s ("New Year's Day" - U2, "In Your Eyes" - Gabriel, etc).

And if you've ever peeked under the hood of one, it's a marvel to see. I'm so shocked the idea of amplified string pianos never caught on.

P.S. Funkin, did you ever figure out how to pack one up?

That's another good one, do you have any idea what he's playing that is sitting on top of the CP?

[coachdobbs]

Well, I believe (and someone correct me if I am wrong) it is an ARP String Ensemble. I'll take the Prophet 5 he has there too.  

[Spaceduck]

CP-70 for $100 on craigslist!!!!
If you're anywhere CLOSE to San Francisco, go!!
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/ele/894735626.html

[micrental]

I found a great stretch tuning chart for the CP-70 on page 11 of the Users Guide
http://safemanuals.com/user-guide-instructions-owner-manual/YAMAHA/CP-70B-_E

I'm not a pro piano tuner, but using that chart + my trusty Fender RT1000 tuner, I tuned all 73 notes in under 2 hours. Really easy & it sounds Schaweeet. Good luck!

P.S. My general opinion of the CP-70... AMAZING. The action is better than the concert grands I've played. Fast scales & runs are smooth as butter, and trills are like leetle hummingbirds wings. Try doing that with a Rhodes!

The downside: weighs a ton. A TON. Not for gigging unless you've got a team of expendable roadies to do the back breaking for you. Also, good luck finding parts for the thing. There's a company in the Netherlands who will sell you a used hammer for $80. I'm not exaggerating.

I'm not a pro either - in fact, I don't have a single tuning tool, but I move my CP-70 around relatively often and I'd like to learn, as steveo says, to do this on my own. Technicians around here basically hang up when they hear it's an electro-acoustic piano anyway. Could anyone point me toward a website or book to help get started?

thanks-
Adam

[pianorocker]

To the above, I would strongly caution against tuning it yourself.  I had the same problem finding someone to tune mine, but found someone that was open to listen and said he'd tuned an 80 before (I have the CP-60M).  The reason I caution is not only is it complicated to hear the overtones (hence strobe tuners cost) and if you tighten a string too much, or the wrong way it will snap...and those have A LOT of tension that could cause serious harm.  Also, piano tuning tools are ridiculously expensive.

Also, let this be my introductory post that I'm thinking of selling my CP-60M.  I am losing space fast and while I love it more than some things it isn't "essential".  I'm looking to get 1250 dollars for it, which I believe is reasonable.  I believe this because a year ago I had it tuned AND regulated which cost about 300 dollars total and it now plays/sounds like a dream.  The power cord is not original, but works absolutely fine (not anything shoddy).  Also, all the CP-60's are M...meaning it does have MIDI.  It's located in Harrisburg, PA.

PM me for pics, further info, etc.

[coachdobbs]

Well, as far as getting a CP in tune, youll never get one perfect. You can get really really close, but it isnt worth driving yourself nuts over. ESPECIALLY if you gig with it and have to move it often, you just tune it as close as possible without giving yourself a brain hemmorage. As far as tuning wrenches go, I got mine for $35 from a guy that tunes pianos. It was a brand new wrench with two string mutes which youll have to have. The best thing to do if you gig with one or move it a lot is just to learn to tune it yourself.

[pianotuner steveo]

Professional piano tuning wrenches cost at least $80-and those are wholesale.I think mine was around $100 plus more for extra tips of different lengths..
be wary of any tool that is cheap-I started out using a $12 tuning wrench and when I switched to a $100 model, my tunings instantly became 10x better.

The tech that sold the $35 wrench may have sold an older (used) pro model?
Also, a strip mute (felt strip) will help speed up tunings-using 2 rubber mutes is a pain and adds a LOT of extra time.

Professional piano tuners should not hang up when being asked to tune a CP- they probably don't understand what it is- I suggest telling them that they tune using conventional tools,and they do not have to fool with the electronics at all....it's too bad you dont live near me, Id be glad to get a call for a CP-it's been a long time since Ive tuned one.

[watermelonman]

I've had very good results tuning mine with Strobosoft, although I had to tweak the lowest octave or so by ear because the software seemed to have trouble zeroing in on those frequencies.  The only note that sounds a tad off (flattens out very slightly on decay) is E2 and I'm wondering if maybe that string (#13) is weakening for whatever reason.  Has anyone had a similar experience?

[pianotuner steveo]

The low notes are ALWAYS difficult to tune. Although old strings can contribute to the problem,it is not always the case.One problem with old bass strings is that they can collect dirt,dust,and if anyone ever touched them with bare hands (A big no no) the oils from fingers can affect the tone also.

Try tuning the note to the 10th above it,assuming the 10th is correct.Then check by comparing the octave,5th,4th, and the 10th. When they ALL sound correct, the note is in tune.The 10th is easier to test than the 3rd above.

I.E.

I believe you said the note is low E. If that's correct, tune it to the G# an octave above the G# above that E. compare the E to the E above, the B, and the A above the  E you are tuning.

[watermelonman]

Thanks for the advice!  I'll let you know how it goes.

[pianotuner steveo]

no problem-im interested in how it turns out...

[watermelonman]

Tuning to the tenth did the trick (and quickly too)!  Thanks again for the advice.