Uneven action / feel

[pringe]

I thought it best to start a new thread since the subject has changed, although it's the same rhodes that I'm referring to in the cracked keys' thread.

After playing it (and this is my first Rhodes i've played apart from all the synths and Nords etc.) I was blown away by the sound of it, but not the feel. The response across the range seemed very uneven - two notes qould quite often not sound when playing normally, although if you gave them a bit more 'welly' then they worked. Also some keys felt heavier than others, and some felt what I can only describe as being 'wallowy' like on an old battered piano.

However, the mechanics looked solid, no signs of rust or any odours. My gut instinct is to leave this one and look for something better but I wondered if the above (the action)is an easy thing to refurb / tweak or if it's a costly job.

Cheers for advice.

[jim]

don't leave it, fix it!

[Rob A]

It may just need the escapement adjusted. It's hard to tell if it needs more than just adjustment from your description.

It's not very difficult to adjust, and you don't need special tools.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=QvhMvS1tZS8

[pringe]

Thanks for the replies - I've just seen another Rhodes and it had the same kind of feel in places - I'm starting to think that this is just down to age.

However, on the two octaves around middle C (the most used area) some of the keys are slightly lower set than the rest of the keys (especially compared to those at the extremities of the keyboard, which play very evenly and nicely). These worn keys are hard to play when doing lines and runs and are very light compared to the good keys.

Is this (as I think) just a wear issue? I'm wondering if there is some felt under the key where the pin holds the key in place that has been worn and needs to be replaced - or perhaps something else?

Also the manufacturer's label / logo on the harp cover is on the bottom right, not the top right as I have seen on all other models. Is this OK?

[Rob A]

Check the procedure for adjusting key dip in the service manual:
http://www.fenderrhodes.com/org/manual/ch4.html

There are felts and paper punchings to allow you to level that out. Do this procedure first before you set escapement. Everything you can/should do is fairly well explained in this chapter of the service manual.

[pringe]

Thanks v much Rob, I haven't actually bought it yet but that helps a lot to explain what's going on.

The Rhodes in question is this one:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=013&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=230153205109&rd=1&rd=1

You can see from the pictures the 'key dip' I'm talking about, and also the (non standard?) Rhodes logo.

Having read the link though it seems that this will only adjust the amount of travel (key dip?) on the key when depressed, not the actual preset position of the suspect keys (which is what is worrying me, together with the unusually light touch of these).

[jim]

the logo position is normal, they just started putting it in a different position over different years.

the problems you have are just an aspect of having a piano with real action.

there are little paper puchings along the balance rail (where the pin comes up through the key half way from front to back) these punchings change the height of each key, and you can possibly even up the keys by adding some.
you can make your own until you find a source for them (a piano supply store)

BUT!
there are many aspects about the action, so it's often hard to diagnose why some keys are sitting lower than others.

for instance if you can pull the key up to the right position it's possible that there is tightness in  the key bushings which doesn't let the key back into it's normal position....but yeah it could be many things.....have fun! it's worth figuring out.

it could also be that the hammer is getting stuck on something...therefor not putting it's weight on the key pedestal and bring the key back up.

it could also be that the keys BESIDE it are interfering in some way. brushing against it.

it could also be that there is something under the namerail right where the key is, which is holding the key down slightly.

[Rob A]

If you don't want to work on this one, you can wait for the next one, or get this one in to a tech that can put it right.

If you were blown away by the sound of this one, a well-adjusted one may just put you in the hospital.  :lol:

You may want to find a tech and go play some good ones so you know what the thing can really do.

[tnelson]

A few other suggestions on leveling keys and adjusting key dip:
1. Spend some time in the Archives looking at past threads on these topics---it's naturally a topic that has been of interest to many others.

2. Clean the entire action and keybed BEFORE leveling keys or adjusting key dip. On a much used piano, unevenness and other problems can be due just to accumulated crud at critical places in the action and keybed

3. Brush and clean the woven felt cloth strip on which the key ends rest at the back of the keybed before worrying about key dip and leveling.  The thickness of this strip sets the resting position for keys when UP, and therefore the distance for key dip. The key DOWN position is limited by the hammer butts (not by the front rail punchings, as in a normal piano action). Assure that the cloth is level and the thickness you want for key dip, BEFORE going through the careful work of key leveling by adjusting the paper punchings on the action rail. A large key dip. like a large escapement distance, can make the action poor and slow-feeling. To reduce the dip, replace the cloth strip with a thicker one (available in many thicknesses from piano supply houses as "backrail cloth."). This raising of the key ends makes all of the key fronts rest at a slightly lower level, and thereby reduces key dip.

[jim]

and decreases hammer throw?

[tnelson]

Have a look at the Rhodes action diagram side views in the service manual. The amount that changing the key dip affects hammer throw depends on quite a few other factors: the height of the action rail felts and punchings, shape and contact point of the key pedestal to the hammer butt cam, escapement setting, etc.  If a piano has a large key dip, chances are that the entire action needs an inspection/adjustment. The Rhodes actions were assembled and rough adjusted pretty quickly, and not all of them seem to have been within the specs shown in the manual, even when new. Also, many have been mis-adjusted over the years, and may have ridiculously high stacks of paper or felt punchings on the action rails. That slight key depression added by reducing key dip may not even move the hammer (i.e., there may be dead play in the action before the cam is even moved).

[jim]

oh yeah like a little bit of space in between the key ped and hammer?
i worked on a mkv here that someone had stacked high high high punchings, so much so that i think they had to raise the namerail?
or did they raise the namerail to raise the lid a little so the tonebars wouldn't hit the lid?

ha ha it's all interconnected!!!!

when i raised the escapement on my rhodes i found it effected my hair in a great way. my hair looked so much more alive and had greater volume!

[Rob A]

I lowered my escapement, and my hair fell out. But the chicks dig my increased dynamic range.

[jim]

:lol:  excellent.

[GW]

I've only played one Rhodes, mine. It had been used as a rental, when I bought it.. I loaned it years ago, and now that I've found this site I'm going to bring it home and try to adjust it.

I'm not much of a pianist, but this Rhodes will tire you out after a few songs. It's action is the opposite of lively. I thought they all were that way, but after searching all of the archives, I don't see any complaints of the action being tiresome. The keys are straight, and all work,, but I remember it not sounding unless you pressed the keys quickly, which meant soft music was tricky.

It's a suitcase with the black cloth and the curved top, which I took off once and quickly put back on, since it was all Greek to me then. I can understand why the only advice I ever got for it was "take it to a shop". I quit taking my guitars there a long time ago.

I appreciate all the knowledge I've gained from the net, I expect I'll be posting a question later, but wanted to say thanks to all of you.

[Rob A]

Have a look at this helpful page:
http://www.fenderrhodes.com/service/action.php

[hammertime]

My name rail is shimmed up 1/8" of an inch and the keys have a reasonable number of punchings to under the felt washer to make it at the height to hit the name rail. My key dip is a little more thn i would like.  maybe 1/2" to 9/16" at worst.

I am barely making a suitable escapement as it is and I dont want to tighten down my springs further.  So, logic has me wanting to add a thicker backrail felt. Should i use piano felt? Or should I use weather stripping? I live so far from a piano shop. Heck, i live far from my mailbox.

Also, my 1975 Stage 73 Mark I Rhodes is really so close to perfect..if i could only reduce keydip a tad. It seems like it has to be the backrail felt.

Anyone discourage that? If it is not that, then someone put a different harp on this that will not let me get proper escapment OR the wooden harp mount spacers are too thick..mine are chipwood material.

I so think that it is the backrail felt..not that is bad or to blam, but it is likely place to reduce keydip and still achieve escapement.

When i set it up text book style.. the hammer tips would not reach the tines. BUT, they did reach the tines before i put new hammertips on... I noticed the new bass hammertips were not as tall s the hammertips that I had removed.

Any insight?

[tnelson]

Try just cleaning and fluffing your backrail cloth before deciding to replace.  They get compacted over the years, and a wire brush or even a toothbrush can restore some of that.

If you want to replace it to change keydip, you can find them at www.vandaking.com. They come in several thicknesses.  I used a "medium-thin" backrail cloth to reduce keydip in my 1975 Mark I. Note that they are sold as backrail cloth, not felt, because they are woven. They come as a single strip of adequate length to do an 88, and you will need to trim to 73 length.

[hammertime]

Okay, I have been up all night and decided before i went the back rail felt avenue, that I would take out all of the punchings (that someone else had put in)..and just put in the felt washer. I cant say that the escapement distances are correct.. but the action is way hot and it is sounding sweet enough. I had to use a few punchings in a two dips in the key level line..but minimally. Whomever had this before me had a handful of punchings in there.

I'll tinker more later, but I am now inclined to think that its not a back rail felt issue...but it might have achieved the same thing. I'll work on assessing the escapement distance issues later after an 8 hour nap.

The only thing that i notice is that I lost my over tones and the high keys are pretty shrill. I'll test it a full amp loudness later and see what's up.

Grateful~

[Ben Bove]

i think factory setting was felt and one punching, if it's of any consequence.