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clanky midrange question

Started by pianotuner steveo, September 17, 2007, 07:56:34 AM

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pianotuner steveo

I am progressing slowly on my Mark 1 ressurrection from being a very much dead,stored in a  barn unit to now being a working Rhodes. I have changed the tone bar grommets, washers,and screws, and now I am attempting to voice the piano the way I like it.The problem I am having is that the middle of the piano is too 'clanky' sounding.I'm ok with my bass and treble, just the middle is off. I am suspecting that maybe the hammer tips have hardened with age. Is there any way to soften the tips,or should I change them to the softer bass tips to get the sound that I want?  I want the real soft,warm sound. I have tried adjusting the timbre and volume, and these are not helping this problem at all. Some people may like the way it sounds now, but I seem to remember that when I had a 1975 suitcase, the hammers had a softer sound. Of course,the piano was only 6 years old at the time...Any advice would be appreciated.

Steve O
1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
1968 Gibson G101 Combo organ
1975 Rhodes Piano Bass
1979 Wurlitzer 206A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 270 Butterfly Grand
2009 73A Rhodes Mark 7
2009 Korg SV-1 73
2017 Yamaha P255
2020 Kawai CA99
....and a few guitars...

Groove4Hire

The clanky sound is probably due to hardened hammertips in the midrange section. Since your piano is 1973 model I assume it has the square tips. These are hard to come by and I try keep them in the piano for as long as possible. I just turn them around 180 degress so they have a fresh edge to attack the tines with. I also tend to like that metallic attack that the hardened tips make but if you don't like them, try to switch out the midrange section of hammertips with some new triangular ones...
Jon
Rhodes-tech, www.vintagebua.no, Norway

Mark II

Quote from: "Groove4Hire"I just turn them around 180 degress so they have a fresh edge to attack the tines with.

Jon, turning those tips 180 degrees sounds strange, cause I would assume that the tips surface must be cleaned from adhesive's residue ? :roll:

Mark II
Rhodes Stage 73 Mark II 1980 / modified Peterson Suitcase Preamp

pianotuner steveo

Yes, these are the squareish tips.They are in great shape, but they are most likely the originals. Maybe this is just what the half wood/half plastic hammers with square tips is supposed to sound like? The other models I previously owned were newer than this one,had all plastic hammers, and the triangularish tips.
I'm sure many folks desire this sound, but I don't . I will be selling this piano eventually-should I just leave it alone? The notes that really bother me are between keys 37 and 47.

SteveO
1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
1968 Gibson G101 Combo organ
1975 Rhodes Piano Bass
1979 Wurlitzer 206A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 270 Butterfly Grand
2009 73A Rhodes Mark 7
2009 Korg SV-1 73
2017 Yamaha P255
2020 Kawai CA99
....and a few guitars...

Groove4Hire

Quote from: "Mark II"Jon, turning those tips 180 degrees sounds strange, cause I would assume that the tips surface must be cleaned from adhesive's residue ? :roll:Mark II
No, I mean turning them clockwise 180 degrees...
Jon
Rhodes-tech, www.vintagebua.no, Norway

Ben Bove

not sure how it will effect the overall volume of your setup, but to pull back on the clankyness, maybe slide the pickups back and go for more fundamental on the tonebar adjustment.  Otherwise get some of the same shore hammertips from the bass register.
Retro Rentals
Vintage Music Gear

http://www.retrorentals.net
(818) 806-9606
info@retrorentals.net

FB: https://www.facebook.com/retrorentals.net/
IG: @RetroRentalsNet

O.Lahoz

Pianotuner SteveO,

The clanky sound can be a symptom of bad strike line or very fatigued (semi-dead)tines. This piano zone is most used.
O. Lahoz
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
1979 Rhodes Suitcase 73 Mark I  / 1979 Rhodes Stage 73 Mark I -->TC Electronic G-Force

pianotuner steveo

Well it's not the strike line, that was one of the first things that I checked.The tines are in good shape overall,too. Ben's(Bjammerz) suggestion helped some, and I am going to replace the tone bars,I found a clean untarnished set for a decent price on Ebay. Mine are badly tarnished.

I have a small escapement problem on 2 notes, but I will post that as a new question.

Steve O
1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
1968 Gibson G101 Combo organ
1975 Rhodes Piano Bass
1979 Wurlitzer 206A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 270 Butterfly Grand
2009 73A Rhodes Mark 7
2009 Korg SV-1 73
2017 Yamaha P255
2020 Kawai CA99
....and a few guitars...

Rob A

Please update us if the tone bar swap helps. I'm quite curious about that.

In my experience, tines that were damaged to the extent of sounding dead usually broke on the next hammer strike. (But as noted elsewhere I play pretty hard.)

pianotuner steveo

Oh I will definitely keep you posted on the tone bar change-I am taking a gamble here.I've been told the sound will be incredibly better, but I am skeptical.Changing the grommets,screws and washers made a huge difference.

I figure that the more I do to help this piano, the more it will be worth when it comes time to sell it.I just hope that adding the Quadrapuss wasn't a mistake as far as resale value goes.

I used to play real hard too. When I was in high school, I would get scolded by the music teachers for doing my Elton John type playing on their crappy uprights. Now, 35 years later, I tune those VERY SAME crappy uprights!

Over the years I learned to lighten my touch on my electric pianos so I don't break tines and reeds anymore. I still play my acoustic pretty hard though. I've never broken a string while playing but have encountered 3 people that have.

Remember, increasing escapement as much as you can stand to in a Rhodes reduces the chance of breaking tines.

Steve O
1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
1968 Gibson G101 Combo organ
1975 Rhodes Piano Bass
1979 Wurlitzer 206A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 270 Butterfly Grand
2009 73A Rhodes Mark 7
2009 Korg SV-1 73
2017 Yamaha P255
2020 Kawai CA99
....and a few guitars...

atraintocry

Quote from: "pianotuner steveo"I still play my acoustic pretty hard though. I've never broken a string while playing but have encountered 3 people that have.

Only once have I had a string break, I want to say it was the highest Ab. But it's so rare (as you know yourself) that I'd chalk it up to a flaw in the string or stress from moving the piano rather than playing...

why play a piano if you're not going to play it hard? :D they sound so good that way...it's really one of the joys of my life to just get the loudest sound I can from my upright. when i taught, my worst pet peeve was when a kid would be afraid to play out!

never broke a tine either...but i feel like the possibility of breaking tines is not a good reason to restrain yourself, if the music calls for some pounding ;)

also, are you sure about increasing escapement to protect tines? it seems like, at least in some setups, that this would allow the hammer to swing out farther, and pick up more momentum.
1975 suitcase 88
myspace.com/quarkct: my band
or search "sleep facing southward" on itunes

Rob A

Not to derail the thread here, but I broke a string on a gig recently. It was a small Yamaha grand, so on the lower end of their range but not a piece of junk axe at all. String was in the low tenor as I recall. It must have been defective.

I think he's got it right with the escapement--I began breaking tines at an alarming rate after dropping mine (doesn't really prove the statement, but my experience is consistent with the claim).

When you don't have a volume knob playing too hard is a real problem. I blame it all on electric guitarists.  :twisted:

pianotuner steveo

Yes, DEcreasing the escapement cause more initial force or blow of the hammer hitting the tine. Therefore, INcreasing the escapement reduces the initial blow.

Think of pounding a nail in with a hammer-if you could use a certain force to hit the nail, then back away from nail a little(similar to increasing the escapement) and hit with the exact same force, the nail wouldn't pound in as far as fast because you are reducing the blow of the hammer.


This is similar (but not exactly the same) to adjusting the letoff in a wurlitzer or an acoustic piano so that the hammer starts to retract away from the reed or string a little sooner.

The hammer does not pick up more momentum,or have more chance of swinging back up and hitting again-the point at which the hammer stops moving hasn't been changed.Basically, you are moving the "nail" (tine) away from the hammer a little.

The rare broken strings on a piano  when playing, are usually caused by a combination of heavy touch and the let off adjustment being too close.(Unless the piano is old and the strings may be corroded)

I still have a heavy touch on my acoustic piano, but I adjusted the letoff so that I greatly reduce the chance of breaking a string.When I was younger,I broke a lot of wurli reeds and a few Rhodes tines. Since making the adjustments, I haven't broken any.

Steve O
1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
1968 Gibson G101 Combo organ
1975 Rhodes Piano Bass
1979 Wurlitzer 206A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 270 Butterfly Grand
2009 73A Rhodes Mark 7
2009 Korg SV-1 73
2017 Yamaha P255
2020 Kawai CA99
....and a few guitars...

pianotuner steveo

I forgot to add.. but I have cut down on pounding on EP's also...so a combination of these two things have saved my reeds and tines.

Steve O
1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
1968 Gibson G101 Combo organ
1975 Rhodes Piano Bass
1979 Wurlitzer 206A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 270 Butterfly Grand
2009 73A Rhodes Mark 7
2009 Korg SV-1 73
2017 Yamaha P255
2020 Kawai CA99
....and a few guitars...

geronimo

In my experience, the neoprene hammer tips make all the difference in that clanky problem, which i also have on my 1975 Rhodes Stage Piano. 1975 is the year Rhodes switched to all-plastic hammer action. I don't think new tines are the answer. as for myself, i'm going to order a brand new set of neoprene hammer tips from Major Key or Vintage Vibe. They are all neatly color-coded & specified.  the action and tone on my 1975 is so inconsistent that i'm sick of interchanging & adjusting & swapping parts. I replaced all the grommets & felt washers & red pedestal felts and I got my Rhodes to sound almost good. I bought a McLaren Harmonic Clarifier from Major Key which brings out a lot of dynamics. So, I might as well replace all of the hammer tips with new neoprene ones. I believe this will solve all of my clanking sounds & dead notes. regarding steveo's "double-striking" problem, check out the  section describing & treating this problem on this website. there is a whole chapter dedicated to "double-striking". it may be on another Fender Rhodes website, I forgot which one. I'll let you know as soon as i locate it.

Ben Bove

If you're getting a new set I'd love to grab your old hammer tips minus the top and bottom octaves.
Retro Rentals
Vintage Music Gear

http://www.retrorentals.net
(818) 806-9606
info@retrorentals.net

FB: https://www.facebook.com/retrorentals.net/
IG: @RetroRentalsNet

pianotuner steveo

Geronimo-this isn't the double striking problem......this is more of a timbre related thing than anything..
1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
1968 Gibson G101 Combo organ
1975 Rhodes Piano Bass
1979 Wurlitzer 206A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 270 Butterfly Grand
2009 73A Rhodes Mark 7
2009 Korg SV-1 73
2017 Yamaha P255
2020 Kawai CA99
....and a few guitars...

geronimo

you wouldn't want them. they're all funky & glue-ridden. the top & bottom octaves are in perfect shape. anyway, when i get my new set i will send them to you if you want.

geronimo

this practice is not recommended because each section of the tine/hammer assembly has different degrees of hardness. depending on the tone bar & tine the hammer tip will have to be a hardness grade that will get the most tone & timbre out of the key. i tried to swap out some lower end & midsection tips to fit on the 'heavy traffic area' as it is called, and i found out the tips were too soft to get any bark out of the tine.

geronimo

Quote from: "pianotuner steveo"Geronimo-this isn't the double striking pr
problem......this is more of a timbre related thing than anything..

Steveo, there are some hammers that strike and if you press the key hard enough, the hammer & tine kind of fuse together or get in the way of each other and the note mutes immediately.  after I strike & i hold key down with a little pressure, the tine damps out or blanks out. like you're taking your fingers & pinching the tine -thereby muting the tine. I noticed that with all the other tines there is none of this & the tine is clear of any interference. in fact the problem hammer, when pressing the key & holding the key down, the hammer stands higher than the neighboring hammers. I removed some of the paper shims under the front key pin. this did the trick, but the key sits lower than the rest of the keys, making for a bad action consistency. Do you think maybe it's the sustain mechanism or the bridle straps or what? it seems to me that something is interfering or out of line with the tine. when i press all the other keys, no matter how hard i press down, there is good clearence. thanks, G.

pianotuner steveo

Sorry Geronimo, I thought you were referring to MY clanky noise problem,not yours.
As I said to you before in PM's, give me a call and have me come look at it-I'm only 35 miles away...it is difficult to tell exactly what is going on without seeing it in person.

You shouldnt remove the paper shims on the balance rail-this may help, but like you said,it makes the keys unlevel.
I need to go thru the regulation steps in order,that way I should be able to spot the exact problem. It could be related to key height,key dip, escapement, timbre adjustment, all kinds of things.

Steve O
1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
1968 Gibson G101 Combo organ
1975 Rhodes Piano Bass
1979 Wurlitzer 206A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 270 Butterfly Grand
2009 73A Rhodes Mark 7
2009 Korg SV-1 73
2017 Yamaha P255
2020 Kawai CA99
....and a few guitars...

geronimo

O.K. Steveo. the best thing to do is like you said, hands on inspection. I will call you when i'm ready. it will be soon, i hope. Geronimo.

gunnar

I was having the same problem with a clanky sounding middle section when I was working on my rhodes this weekend and I solved it by moving the harp ever so slightly. It always surprises me how the smallest adjustments make huge changes to the overall sound. Anyway, I'm sure you tried it already, I just wanted to say that this was the solution in my case, which might help other people with a similar problem. Good luck!
1977 Rhodes Mark 1 73 stage
MicroKorg

pianotuner steveo

When moving it, did it change the striking point more towards the free end of the tine? I'm trying to achieve a deeper,softer sound with less attack,less crisp treble.
1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
1968 Gibson G101 Combo organ
1975 Rhodes Piano Bass
1979 Wurlitzer 206A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 270 Butterfly Grand
2009 73A Rhodes Mark 7
2009 Korg SV-1 73
2017 Yamaha P255
2020 Kawai CA99
....and a few guitars...

gunnar

In my case I would move it towards the fixed end of the tine, but I was trying the opposite effect (barky harsh sound) so I moved the right side of the harp slightly away from me, so maybe you should try to move it towards you.
Hope it works!
1977 Rhodes Mark 1 73 stage
MicroKorg

pianotuner steveo

The next step in my restoration is replacing the tolex, so when I disconnect the harp from the arms completely, I'll easily be able to experiment more with the striking point.Hopefully I'll be able to do this this weekend.
1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
1968 Gibson G101 Combo organ
1975 Rhodes Piano Bass
1979 Wurlitzer 206A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 270 Butterfly Grand
2009 73A Rhodes Mark 7
2009 Korg SV-1 73
2017 Yamaha P255
2020 Kawai CA99
....and a few guitars...

geronimo

wouldn't you have to drill new screw holes? even if the move is a micro-inch, the screw holes woun't line up right?

Rob A

Right. There are several sets of holes in the harp (mine has 4 sets), so if you're close, you pick a different harp hole to drill the support.

geronimo

what does your phillips philacorda sound like? i've never seen one in the flesh but i've read a lot about them & they are very rare in the states. do you run it thru a guitar amp or a leslie? got any pix? I have an english vox continental, hammond C3, rhodes mark 1, wurlitzer 145b, hohner pianet N,& a hohner clavinet ll. i run the vox & hammond thru a leslie 330 speaker.

gunnar

About moving the harp: yes, you would need to drill new holes, but I have not done that yet, I just tightened the little bolts that keep the harp in place at the bottom of the brackets, which means that I can't move my piano at the moment without screwing up the alignment again, but while I keep it where it is it's fine...
About the Philicorda: I can't find a picture of mine at the moment, but there are some good examples on YoutTube. Like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRIND7WyHEM

or (not so very helpful):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_Ea3Kf6hso
1977 Rhodes Mark 1 73 stage
MicroKorg