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Vintagemusicparts leg braces - Mine don't fit

Started by pianodano, February 25, 2008, 04:03:58 PM

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pianodano

Hi All,

A couple of weeks back I ordered a pair of leg braces from these folks. They are in Portugal, me thinks, so it took a while to get to the east coast.  Unfortunately, the braces are about 3/4" short and will not make it to the brace knob without putting a pretty good bend in the legs or a lot of stess on the weld. I won't do that. Wonder if anyone else around here may have tried a pair of these and what was the outcome.  Here's the pair I bought. It was around $120.00 US with shipping.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=170163936909&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=007


Thanks,

Danny
I am a builder. If you see me running - get out of the building

jim


jim


pianodano

Quote from: "jim"and your flanges


OK, if you insist.  :)



I am a builder. If you see me running - get out of the building

jim

wow, they really stuffed up hey.

you need your money back!

they suck!

pianodano

I just received a email from him. I sent him pictures to show the problem. He said that they'll fit and that I have to change the bend and start the knob first and basically pull the legs in. Yeah . . . . right. I don't care what is done, each brace will still be about 3/4" short and the bends  really should be made at a compound angle. Not at all like what I have received.

If he sells a lot of them, I guess that may explain a few of the broken welds on leg threads.  :(

I am getting real tired of being ripped off on Rhodes parts. Is this like a specialty trade that is filled with shysters ?

Regards,

Danny
I am a builder. If you see me running - get out of the building

Mark II

mmmh, interesting.
If I recall it right, my rhodes' legbrace had to be pushed in position a little. But they didnt came with my rhodes. I bought them at ebay.de and the seller described them as original parts. So, I am not sure if I ought to believe that or not.
How about the other rhodes users who have for sure original legs and braces ?
Do you have to use some force to get things setup or is it an easy fit ?

@Danny, I am trying to understand why an American resident buys rhodes parts in Europe, I mean, you are at the source of materials (parts suppliers, ebay, craiglist). Or were these places more expensive than vintagemusicparts ?
No offense, just interest.

Another point: Danny, how do you try to mount the braces ? With the rhodes in upright position or on her back with legs in the air ?

greetings
Mark II
Rhodes Stage 73 Mark II 1980 / modified Peterson Suitcase Preamp

jim

i too am constantly disappointed at the amount of people trying to screw us on rhodes parts.

those support bars ARE DEFINATELY TOO SHORT.
there is a little bit of pushing involved in getting the originals hooked up, but that picture shows clearly that they are the wrong length.  they SHOULD be touching the bottom of the piano and the only bending should be slightly sideways.

andi85

I also need some pressure and mine seem to be original. But I don't have that much distance and mine also aren't too short, but just have to be bent upwards a little.
Tuning instruments makes the band sound thin!

keysandslots

There's one easy way to find out if they're too short. Measure the tube part, just the part that is not bent and flattened, and then one of us will measure an original part, and we'll compare.

If I can remember, I'll check mine tonight.

Randy
Some of my stuff can be checked out at tune and tune and CD and even tune

paulb

Another point: Danny, how do you try to mount the braces ? With the rhodes in upright position or on her back with legs in the air ?

greetings
Mark II


Sorry Mark II, but this was too funny not to re-post!  There's some kind of double meaning in this one.

I have an original pair of braces as well and can measure them if needed.  It takes a bit of pressure to get mine in place, but the length looks to be the issue with yours, not the angle of the bend.

Paul
1977 Mark I Suitcase 73
1976 Mark I Stage 73
1975 Yamaha U1

pianodano

Quote from: "Mark II"mmmh, interesting.
If I recall it right, my rhodes' legbrace had to be pushed in position a little. But they didnt came with my rhodes. I bought them at ebay.de and the seller described them as original parts. So, I am not sure if I ought to believe that or not.
How about the other rhodes users who have for sure original legs and braces ?
Do you have to use some force to get things setup or is it an easy fit ?

@Danny, I am trying to understand why an American resident buys rhodes parts in Europe, I mean, you are at the source of materials (parts suppliers, ebay, craiglist). Or were these places more expensive than vintagemusicparts ?
No offense, just interest.

Another point: Danny, how do you try to mount the braces ? With the rhodes in upright position or on her back with legs in the air ?

greetings
Mark II

Thanks for all the interest guys, I really appreciate it. I will try to answer 1 post at the time because I don't know how to do a multiquote on this forum.

Mark,

I had a Mark 1 stage for many years. I don't ever recall having to use much force to attach the braces on it. I learned back then to lay the piano on it's back, screw in the legs and have 2 people stand it up so that undue stresses were not put of the thread welds . Next I would, and still do,  attach the braces to the legs and finally screw in the center brace knob.  IT should be no problem at all.

These braces are stainless steel. I don't know if they are 18-8, which is a high grade stainless, but it's a good idea making them out of stainless, imo.

Yes it is strange to buy parts for a Rhodes that are made in Europe but, I have become wary of sellers on Ebay that give such glowing descriptions of some item for sale such as like new, mint or perfect condition. You buy it and realize that you've been duped.  These terms they use are not relative in my mind. Like new = Like new. MINT = MINT. But they will argue they are relative. That's a crock.

I did find a pair for sale on ebay a few weeks back and I seem to remember a opening bid of 80.00. I think they were described as in good condition. So I supspected that by the time I paid at least 80.00 bucks + another 20 for shipping + a couple of hours to remove the rust and pits before sending to the chrome plater + another 50 or so to rechrome them,  I would be better off buying this NEW pair that the I bought from seller offered.  He also make legs from stainless and several other parts. They looked very good in the pictures. I would not think the braces should be hard to make for an experienced metal worker.

Regards,

Danny
I am a builder. If you see me running - get out of the building

pianodano

Quote from: "jim"i too am constantly disappointed at the amount of people trying to screw us on rhodes parts.

those support bars ARE DEFINATELY TOO SHORT.
there is a little bit of pushing involved in getting the originals hooked up, but that picture shows clearly that they are the wrong length.  they SHOULD be touching the bottom of the piano and the only bending should be slightly sideways.

Jim,

Thanks. They are too short for sure. Somebody in a post below offered to measure his from bend to bend. So that should settle it. I think I can make these work by coming up with a 1/2 or maybe even 3/4" standoff to put under the brace knob and braces, but it really should not have been necessary if the braces were the correct length.

Regards,

Danny
I am a builder. If you see me running - get out of the building

pianodano

Quote from: "andi85"I also need some pressure and mine seem to be original. But I don't have that much distance and mine also aren't too short, but just have to be bent upwards a little.

Andi85,

Yep. That's about what I remember from my old original Rhodes.

Danny
I am a builder. If you see me running - get out of the building

pianodano

Keysandslots and Paul,

OK, With your help maybe we can compare. The length from BEND TO BEND is 31 inches.

But the centerlines of the hole slots in the bends would be a factor also. ON the short bend (the one that attaches to the legs), from the bend  to the hole centerline is 9/16".  At the other end, from the bend to the centerline of the hole slot is 1 1/8"

Thanks,

Danny
I am a builder. If you see me running - get out of the building

andi85

Yes, I mean, a little fumbling and pressing seems to be normal, but this looks pretty extreme.
Have you ever tried to put the braces in while the piano is still on the ground on its back side? I doubt that it would make too much difference, but still...
Tuning instruments makes the band sound thin!

pianodano

Quote from: "andi85"Yes, I mean, a little fumbling and pressing seems to be normal, but this looks pretty extreme.
Have you ever tried to put the braces in while the piano is still on the ground on its back side? I doubt that it would make too much difference, but still...

Well, no mater what, it's going to put a good amount of stress on the leg welds when I pull them in work work with these braces.  But I 'll try.
I am a builder. If you see me running - get out of the building

Mark II

Quote from: "paulb"Sorry Mark II, but this was too funny not to re-post!  There's some kind of double meaning in this one.

I have an original pair of braces as well and can measure them if needed.  It takes a bit of pressure to get mine in place, but the length looks to be the issue with yours, not the angle of the bend.

Paul

There is always a double meaning in my posts. :wink:

Mark II
Rhodes Stage 73 Mark II 1980 / modified Peterson Suitcase Preamp

sean

My cross-braces on my 1973 stage 73 are also 31" from bend-to-bend.

I think my tabs at the top are a bit bigger... It looks to me like the center-of-slot to bend distance is 1.5" on mine.

I remember cursing up a storm when I but the whole mess together, because I thought MY crossbraces were short.

It wouldn't take much slop in the mounting of the leg inserts to create problems here.

pianodano

Quote from: "sean"My cross-braces on my 1973 stage 73 are also 31" from bend-to-bend.

I think my tabs at the top are a bit bigger... It looks to me like the center-of-slot to bend distance is 1.5" on mine.

I remember cursing up a storm when I but the whole mess together, because I thought MY crossbraces were short.

It wouldn't take much slop in the mounting of the leg inserts to create problems here.

Sean,

Thanks for the measurements. I suspected the error is in the hole location.

Danny
I am a builder. If you see me running - get out of the building

Ben Bove

ok sorry I jumped into this post late here.

There's a lot of slack from left to right on back legs.  As long as everything is secured inside, put the piano on its back, or completely upside down.  You need to pull in the leg towards the middle of the piano and this should give some more "slack" for the brace.  Unfortunately these braces never just fit on smoothly.  I'm always weary of reproduced parts instead of originals, but so long as they're same length, its probably a slack issue.  If you think about it, if your back right leg slides out to the right, the angle of the cross brace gets wider and wider apart from the piano which would make it appear shorter.

It also helps to have the knob partially screw started in, and link the braces on there as you do adjustments.  They're just all over the place until you get the braces screwed down.
Retro Rentals
Vintage Music Gear

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(818) 806-9606
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sean

The hole for the crossbar mount on my piano is 11.5" from the back edge of the case.  It would probably be a hateful pain to move this hole, but you might easily make a spacer that would allow the short braces to work.  Maybe take a small piece of oak, pop two holes through it, and hammer a T-nut into one hole.  Run a 1/4-20 bolt into the piano to hold the block in place, and use the other hole with the T-nut for your leg-brace knob.  You might have a hassle with the bolt on the knob being too long.   Well, it is kind of a half-assed solution, so maybe....

Maybe you can access the hole without taking the piano action out of the case.  I wonder if you raise the harp, and take six or eight keys out, you might be able to see the hole from above.  If so, you could remove the little aluminum  plate from the bottom of the piano.  Drill a new hole an inch closer to the rear of the case, and smack in the T-nut from above (Carefully!)  Then re-install the little aluminum plate in the new location on the underside, and pretend that all is well.  This would be a more gig-worthy solution.

This is a T-nut:
http://www.fastenersuperstore.com/stores/superstore/images/teeNutF.jpg

I probably wouldn't swing a hammer inside my piano.  You can get the T-nut into place using a little extension made from a hi-hat stand.  (Yes, I am just kidding.)  Use a cold chisel, or a large bolt from your junk drawer.

Good luck...

Sean

P.S. - I wonder if this leg brace problem is the reason that we occasionally see the leg braces mounted on the front legs instead of the back legs.

Ben Bove

hahaha.  No the crossbraces on the front are definitely in the idiot category along with leaving the harp cover flap over the namerail.  I'd love to see someone sit down at a stage piano with crossbraces nailing them in the knees.  They probably also refer to it as a suitcase piano as it looks like a large samsonite.
Retro Rentals
Vintage Music Gear

http://www.retrorentals.net
(818) 806-9606
info@retrorentals.net

FB: https://www.facebook.com/retrorentals.net/
IG: @RetroRentalsNet

pianodano

Quote from: "bjammerz"ok sorry I jumped into this post late here.

There's a lot of slack from left to right on back legs.  As long as everything is secured inside, put the piano on its back, or completely upside down.  You need to pull in the leg towards the middle of the piano and this should give some more "slack" for the brace.  Unfortunately these braces never just fit on smoothly.  I'm always weary of reproduced parts instead of originals, but so long as they're same length, its probably a slack issue.  If you think about it, if your back right leg slides out to the right, the angle of the cross brace gets wider and wider apart from the piano which would make it appear shorter.

It also helps to have the knob partially screw started in, and link the braces on there as you do adjustments.  They're just all over the place until you get the braces screwed down.

Bjammerz,

Thanks. Hope you get to feeling better soon.

I really think that what will happen by forcing the legs inwards and tightening the knob will be to create a downward bulge or bow  in the bottom of the case or possibly break the welds on the leg threads.

I need to check the keybed and see if it makes contact only on the front/rear and each side or if there is also a center bearing point. I can't remember. Regardless, I can make these braces work by inserting a standoff spacer under the braces as I mentioned above. But that is all I can think of.

Thanks

Danny
I am a builder. If you see me running - get out of the building

sean

Danny,

The standoff is a much better idea than my two hairbrained ideas.

Good call.

Sean

pianodano

Quote from: "sean"Danny,

The standoff is a much better idea than my two hairbrained ideas.

Good call.

Sean


Sean,

You idea is pretty good and I appreciate all the thought you put into your post . But I have put so much TIME AND MONEY into restoring this old Rhodes, I reallywould like to keep it as original (LOOKING) as possible, albeit there is little of the orginal part left. :D Maybe I should have just bought the brand new one that speakeasy has been trying to sell. lol.

Danny

PS, I have moved on to other things. Check out my thread on THEM DANG DAMPERS.
I am a builder. If you see me running - get out of the building

vintagemusicparts

Hi everybody!

This is Joao Coelho from vintagemusicparts.com

I just came across this thread about our leg braces.

Our CAD drawing from where the braces are machined, show the same measures as Danny's part as well as the '73 original braces (31'').

This drawing was made over a year ago and used as a mold, an original Rhodes brace.

Several dozens of these braces were produced so far without any issues other than some misunderstanding on how to assemble the braces and knob.

The brace knob should be threaded in  a bit and then  the braces should be engaged. Its is preferable do this with the piano on it's back or side. The point of the braces is not only to keep the back legs still as well as to transfer some of the support to the center.

I would like to ask Sean if center-of-slot to bend distance of 1.5" is an actual measure or just a measure by "look".

Finally, I would like to refer that we accept returns if the client is not happy with the part, as you can check on our ebay store.

:wink:

sean

Dear Joao,

I uploaded a diagram of the exact measurements of my leg braces from my 1973 Mark I stage 73 to the files section of the rhodestech group on yahoo.  

All the measurements were taken with calipers, but some measurements might differ from the original production run.  For instance, the slots on each end of the legs tend to spread open over the years.  It looks to me like the slot was originally 3/8 of an inch (0.375"), but it is now a little wider on my braces.  The drawing shows what I believe were the original dimensions of the part.

I believe you can view the diagram without a yahoo login:
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/IAvnRxArtrYEM8NlY5cWY1IeK6kuTGFY60NqoYYpgzbq5vT25gTukXiqKyXy70IqpOvnu3mhDCKCP4EUwudl0FnIVFIH_Y3V/RhodesLegBrace.pdf

If you can't see the pdf file, please shoot me a note, and I will email it to you.

(Oh, sorry about using decimal inches, it is just how we do it over here.)


Best regards,

Sean



[/url]

pianodano

Quote from: "sean"Dear Joao,

I uploaded a diagram of the exact measurements of my leg braces from my 1973 Mark I stage 73 to the files section of the rhodestech group on yahoo.  

All the measurements were taken with calipers, but some measurements might differ from the original production run.  For instance, the slots on each end of the legs tend to spread open over the years.  It looks to me like the slot was originally 3/8 of an inch (0.375"), but it is now a little wider on my braces.  The drawing shows what I believe were the original dimensions of the part.

I believe you can view the diagram without a yahoo login:
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/IAvnRxArtrYEM8NlY5cWY1IeK6kuTGFY60NqoYYpgzbq5vT25gTukXiqKyXy70IqpOvnu3mhDCKCP4EUwudl0FnIVFIH_Y3V/RhodesLegBrace.pdf

If you can't see the pdf file, please shoot me a note, and I will email it to you.

(Oh, sorry about using decimal inches, it is just how we do it over here.)


Best regards,

Sean



[/url]

Sean,

Dang. I'm amazed. You sure went to a whole lot of work with that. You are a machinist ? Cabinetmaker ? Or maybe a caliper and micrometer collector ?  :D

I have been able to make mine work by using a 5/8" standoff under the braces.

The guy that made the replicas and sold them to me seems to be very nice and quite concerned as is evidenced by his post. I  plan  keep them. I suppose I should rename this thread something else.  

Regards,

Danny
I am a builder. If you see me running - get out of the building