Twin Reverb - Which is best old or "new"

[Rhodes2nowhere]

Hello all,

Love the site, am a novice fulfilling an ambition through treating myself to a birthday present of a MK1 Rhodes and subsequently learning to play. There for apologies for my naivity to any technical talk. My long term goal is to release my funk, soul and easy listening calling that I believe can only truly be catalysed through true period gear.

The guy I bought the piano off, wouldn't part with the mint twin reverb (that apparently came with it from new) so am looking for a replacement.

Having read up a little on forums like this, I am pretty set on getting a Fender Twin Reverb (it just seems so right) but would be really grateful of your advice.

I have had a very kind offer from my Uncle (who is enthusiastic about valve radios and amps and gifted at fixing/restoring such equipment) to attend to anything that requires a little work. But this particular amp is not something he knows much about., hence the followin questions:

1. I have seen that Fender did a "re-issue" of the twin reverb and wonder if this is comparable to the older amps and worth persuing? and would I gain any advantages over reliability for instance?

2. Are there any prefferable models that are best matched to a Rhodes?

3. Are there replacement speaker/valves that are best avoided/recommended?

4. Seeing that mint amps hold a premium and grateful of the amazing offer I have from uncle would I be best to by a project to build back up to, based on the above? or is it really worth paying for a totally original one. Surely all the important bits will need re-placing at some time anyway.

5. Am I likely to be able to utilise it for home practice? Or hear regularly the words of Huey Lewis to Marty McFly in Back to The Future) - Sorry,  I'm afraid your just too darn loud.

I appreciate any help you can provide and look forward to being able to repay any assitance by contributing to the site in the future.

John
[/b]

[tomnardozza]

i like the later 70's models with the master volume knob.  the knob pulls out to give it more....for lack of a better word....balls.  it's really good for that grimy, not so clean rhodes sound!  another good thing is for some reason, they're cheaper than the real blackface ones, and usually cheaper than the new blackface ones...so ya can't go wrong!! (oh, and if you never had a rhodes/twin combo, it's a good time to make friends with the local chiropractor!)

[tomnardozza]

.......OR, if you're looking for one for practice use too (not that you can't turn down the vol on any of em!)  the "red knob" series is really cool.  it was made in the 80's and gives you a choice of 25w or 100w.  it also has a knob to "mix" the clean and dirty channel for a great combo of sounds.  the ONLY bad thing about it is it doesn't have a vibrato.  other than that, it's the perfect amp!  (usually called "the twin", evil twin, red knob twin, rivera twin)

[raemon80]

You should also look at Deluxe or Princeton Reverb amps, same sound and punch. Might even be a bit cleaner in some cases, just less power. Anyway, my advise would be to stick between 1968-1971. After that they started doing all kinds of stuff to the circuitry which didn't improve the sound...especially that horrendous Master Volume knob  :wink:
Before that is just too damn expensive. I've seen '64/'66 BF Twin Reverbs with the AA763 and AB763 tube chart go for $3000. You can still get AB763 Fenders at a fairly reasonable price, but they usually need some TLC..
I have a '69 Princeton Amp (AA964) for recording purposes. Love it!

[Mark II]

Might even be a bit cleaner in some cases, just less power.

Doesnt that contradict ? I thought less power means bringing the main amp tubes faster to distortion resulting in a less clean sound. the 135 watt twin is because of its 135 watt a clean monster.

Mark II

[raemon80]

Might even be a bit cleaner in some cases, just less power.

Doesnt that contradict ? I thought less power means bringing the main amp tubes faster to distortion resulting in a less clean sound. the 135 watt twin is because of its 135 watt a clean monster.

Mark II

not really. Wattage is decibels, tubes are your amplification, the tube distortion/saturation is really just extra .
Why would they distort faster, I don't see reason for that? You're actually giving your tubes a break with a smaller, less powerful speaker.
What I specifically meant was that, when you crank a Deluxe or Twin up beyond (I think it was like..) 6 or 7, you get that "edge" everyone always talks about. The Princeton doesn't have that....well, my Princeton doesn't have it
Then again, it all depends on the different types of tubes and speakers you have..obviously there's a vast amount of ways to produce the sound one desires....and some tubes distort faster than others.

[Mark II]

your are mixing up terms, wattage is not decibels
wattage is an unit, decibel is dimensionless.
they are both related, yes with the efficiency of the speaker (98db/1W e.g.)

it depends on the tubes and their bias, true.

the volume pot is right before the main amp stage (power tubes)
the louder you set your amp, the more signal will feed the power tubes and the more they are saturated. Basically a princeton should edge very early compared to a Twin because of the difference in volume pot position. but it depends on the settup of the tubes.

Code Select Expand

You're actually giving your tubes a break with a smaller, less powerful speaker.

:?:

the speaker doesnt distort, at least it shouldnt otherwise its broken.then all guitar player will save a lot of money and dont buy tube amps but amps with broken speakers.

Mark II

[raemon80]

?
maybe we are misunderstanding each other.
But, the distortion doesn't have much to do with the relation speaker-tube.

[Rhodes2nowhere]

I knew I my query would be in good hands, am impressed how promptly you have all replied (many thanks for that).

I must admit that I am starting to get a little baffled by the technical talk!

Am really appreciating the Fender Twin Reverb model advice, am finding it hard to distinguish from the info out there what (if any noticeable) differences between them (silver face, blackface, re-issue etc) for the Rhodes are. Any info that I have seen is guitar biased and if you query an E-bay ad (or the like) chances are they don't know or offer you the opportunity to test it, my musical ear isn't yet that developed and the logistics of taking the piano to the amp is a non-starter.

If you can add any thoughts on whether it's cost effective to refurbish something that needs work (based on the offer of assistance I have) or hold out for an original are also warmly accepted.

Thanks

John

[raemon80]

From what I'm hearing from you, any 70s Silverface would be perfect for ya

this is a pretty good deal:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Fender-Twin-Reverb-amplifier-Silver-face_W0QQitemZ230264479322QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item230264479322&_trkparms=72%3A12|39%3A1|65%3A12&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

from the description it sounds  like it might need a run-through, but the price is good.

[guizmo]

Hello everybody,

I found a guy near where I live who sells a twin reverb blackface from 1967 at 1300$.
It's fully working, do you think that is the good affair ? (Note that I live in France and the prices are higher than in USA).

Thanks !

[73 Keys]

It's fair $1300,That's about what you can get one for here in the US!

[guizmo]

Thanks for your answer.
In Europe it's difficult to find an original blackface from the 60's, recently I found 2 two guys (one in UK and 1 in France), selling TR for 3500 to 4500$.

[73 Keys]

You welcome! I had a 72 Fender Vibrosonic Reverb. It has a 15"speaker and the sound was really nice to me!

[guizmo]

On the 1967 TR I'd like to buy, tubes, transformer, and few condensers are not original... Do you think that 1300$ it's still a fair price.

I imagine that is dificult to find a used amp from the 60's all original...

Thanks

G

[73 Keys]

No, That is too much! Maybe $700-800? If all the parts are not there, I'd pass on that one!

[The Real MC]

On the 1967 TR I'd like to buy, tubes, transformer, and few condensers are not original... Do you think that 1300$ it's still a fair price.

I imagine that is dificult to find a used amp from the 60's all original...

They're still out there.  I found a 1970s Dual Showman Reverb (head version of Twin Reverb) with original everything, even the original RCA tubes.  A little old lady only played it on Sundays.  Yeah not 60s but there ya go.

[guizmo]

Hello guys !

I need your help! I found on a store a Fender Twin reverb silverface from 1975 (seller information).
It seems to be all original (tubes, footswitch...) and fully working (reverb, tremolo, footswitch), I tested it with a stratocaster...

I think the guy is not a specialist (he told me that it is the "115w version because it has a 2x12", the 85w has 2x10..."  ok thanks!)

It sells it at 925$ and he can make me a lower price at 840$...
Do you think it's a fair price? An important think is that I live in France and the lowest prices I've seen for a twin reverb on the web for a Twin reverb in France is 970$ and for a reissue !

Thanks

[guizmo]

Hi, I took some pictures of the amp, the unique problem is that the speakers aren't originals, and I cannot determine their brand, and there is no serial number on it.
Here are the pictures, could you help me to determine it?

[mvanmanen]

I can't help you in identifying the speaker but here in Canada the master volume silverface twins are considered less desirable. The master volume addition does effect the treble of the amp to my ears. That being said, still a beautiful amp with tons of clean head room. If you really want to know the year of the amp, you could pull out the chassis or do a search for the cosmetic timelines (assuming it has not been altered).

If the amp is already in playable condition and does not need replacement of caps, power cord, etc., then here in Canada (where prices are a bit higher then the U.S.) would be $600 to $1000. Cosmetics do effect prices of vintage amps. I would not worry about the speakers if everything else is good as they can be replaced but this should be factored into the price.

My 2 cents....

[guizmo]

Thanks a lot!

You're right when you say that the master volume silverface Twin reverb is less desirable, but finding an early-72 version or a blackface is harder.

Prices in France for the same I'd like to buy are between 1000 and 1500$ approximately, and the seller sells it to me at 760$ (this is his final price). For sure I'd prefer to find a blackface for 900$, but I think 760$ for a 1975 SF is still a fair price (in France).

I made a picture of all the parts (transformer, chassis...) and all the serials corresponds to 1975...
I have just a doubt with on one part (see on the attachment)

I think the code to date the component is : 8317437
But there is a problem, I learned on the web that the non-fender components had a serial number written like this: XXX YY ZZ

XXX : manufacturer code
YY : year
ZZ: week

So my transformer would be from 37th week of 1974, but 831 code doesn't exist! 830 exists and it's for Triad transformers.

Am I right thinking that 8317437 is the date code? Or can you help me to understand the top code?

Thanks

[guizmo]

I think I found the answer to my last question (on this website: http://www.ggjaguar.com/fendamp5.htm)    so I'm gonna share it!

I quote: "It's been universally accepted that Fender only used Schumacher transformers on amps made in the 1960s and 1970s.  These are marked with EIA code "606" which is the company number for Schumacher.  Well, this universal "truth" was debunked when we found a bunch of amps with transformers made by the Better Coil and Transformers company.  These are marked with EIA code "831" and are most prevalent during the 1966-68 time period.  Some examples include a '66 Princeton Reverb and '66 Pro Reverb with Better Coil output transformer, a '66 Deluxe Reverb and '67 Twin Reverb with Better Coil reverb transformer, and a 1968 Vibro Champ with Better Coil trannies.  These units look, and apparently sound, just like the Schumacher-made units so it's easy to overlook that "831" code."

So all is ok, the transformer is from 74 end, another part (606-5-08) from February 1975, and the entire amp from early 1975 (B04xxx)

Hope it will be useful for someone!

[mvanmanen]

What you are saying makes sense to me.
Here is a link with 831 transformer code
http://www.triodeel.com/eiacode.htm

Cheers

[guizmo]

Yes !!! If I had that at the beginning !
Your chart is very complete! Thanks

[mvanmanen]

I always think when buying a new amp...worst case scenerio I sell it.
The problem is I usually like it and seem to accumulate amps as easily as keyboards

Anyways, I agree the price sounds fair for the market.
And certainly it would be expensive to ship a twin from the U.S.

Let us know what you think of it...

[guizmo]

I'm agree! I thought 1 second to sell my Jazz Chorus to buy the Twin Reverb, but just 1 second.

I'm gonna buy it tomorrow!

I saw that the tubes are Sovtek (made in Russia) but stamped Fender too? Is it normal and good tubes?

Thanks

[The Real MC]

I wouldn't fret whether the amp is MV or not.  That's more important to guitar players and you'll notice little difference with turn the MV up all the way.   Just set your volume using the channel.  It's a fine amp for Rhodes.

[guizmo]

Perfect! Another good reason to buy it!

[guizmo]

I finally bought it! What an amazing sound!!
I began to clean it (chromes, see the second picture in the attachment), and I will have to repair the grill cloth frame, but nothing hard to do!

Bye and thanks for your advices!
I will post others pictures when it will be clean!

[mvanmanen]

Glad to hear you are happy with it!!!!

[guizmo]

Hi everybody,

I finished to clean my twin reverb, here are the pictures.
Now I just have to repair the grill cloth frame.

Bye

[LDS]

Might even be a bit cleaner in some cases, just less power.

Doesnt that contradict ? I thought less power means bringing the main amp tubes faster to distortion resulting in a less clean sound. the 135 watt twin is because of its 135 watt a clean monster.

Mark II

not really. Wattage is decibels, tubes are your amplification, the tube distortion/saturation is really just extra .
Why would they distort faster, I don't see reason for that? You're actually giving your tubes a break with a smaller, less powerful speaker.
What I specifically meant was that, when you crank a Deluxe or Twin up beyond (I think it was like..) 6 or 7, you get that "edge" everyone always talks about. The Princeton doesn't have that....well, my Princeton doesn't have it
Then again, it all depends on the different types of tubes and speakers you have..obviously there's a vast amount of ways to produce the sound one desires....and some tubes distort faster than others.

I know this is an old post, but it might be useful information to someone. Unlike the finer details of EP tuning, guitar amplifiers I have lots of professional experience with.

A fender twin is a much, much, much cleaner amp than any Princeton. A Princeton on 10 is about the equivilent of a Fender Reverb on 3 or 4. It is largely about wattage and speaker surface area. 2x 6v6 valves and a 10" speaker in the princeton have no chance in keeping up with 4x 6L6 valves and 2x 12" speakers in the twin. Doubling speaker surface area doubles the percieved volume. As does increasing wattage by a factor of 10.

That isn't to say a princeton isn't a nice amp. I love my early 1960's princeton with its tube bias vibrato... but when it comes to clean sound, a 105watt Fender Twin will do 4 laps of the city then sit down for a nice hot breakfast before the princeton even gets out of the driveway.