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Avion vs. VV Fender Rhodes 73 Key Refurb Kits

Started by tempesax, August 21, 2022, 03:18:48 PM

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tempesax

I recently bought two Fender Rhodes, a 1976 Stage and a 1976 Suitcase. The suitcase was in pretty good condition, but the stage was pretty beat up.

I installed the Vintage Vibe 73 key refurb kit on the stage (miracle mod, grommets & screws, hammers, and damper felts).

Now the stage sounds much better than the suitcase and I an strongly considering refurbishing the suitcase.

When I upgraded the stage, the only refurb kit I found was the one from Vintage Vibe. Recently I found the refurb kit from Avion and am a bit intrigued by their fancy grommets and all the extra parts they give you for about the same price.

My question is: Does anyone have any experience with the two different refurb kits? Is either of them any better than the other? Are the Avion grommets any better than the VV ones? From the picture it looks like the Avion damper felts are in a "V" configuration as opposed to the VV flat felts. Is either set of felts any better than the other? Is either set of hammers any better than the other?

Thanks for your help. Any information I can get on this would be helpful.

Mark

Alan Lenhoff

I'm not a fan of any of the refurb kits.  You should determine what parts need to be replaced on your pianos and only replace them.  I'm not saying that just because of the cost and time involved in replacing unnecessary parts. It's also because some of the modern replacement parts available today will change the character of your classic piano. As one leading tech once told me, you should have a good reason to replace any original part.

Alan
Co-author, "Classic Keys: Keyboard Sounds That Launched Rock Music"

Learn about the book: http://www.classickeysbook.com/
Find it on Amazon.com: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1574417762/

1965 UK Vox Continental;1967 Gibson G101 organ; 1954 Hammond B2; Leslie 21H; Leslie 31H; 1974 Rhodes Mark I Stage 73; 1972 Rhodes Sparkletop Piano Bass; 1978 Hohner Clavinet D6; 1968 Hohner Pianet N II; 1966 Wurlitzer 140B; 1980 Moog Minimoog Model D; 1983 Roland JX-3P; 1977 Fender Twin Reverb; 1983 Roland JX-3P synth; Vox AC30CC2X amp.
(See the collection: https://vintagerockkeyboards.com/ )

DAtkinson

I definitely prefer VV's damper felts, and have experience with both. The Avion kit has extras, yes, but it's unlikely you have any need to replace bridle straps, for example. I agree with Alan - determine what would actually benefit from being replaced. e.g. Check: are the grommets pancaked and squashed, or crumbling? Are the damper felts floppy and falling off? Are the hammer tips badly beat up? (minor grooves don't count - new hammer tips begin to develop grooves almost immediately.) The attention you pay to optimizing the escapement and then the strikeline are the biggest variables by far, much more than replacing any parts.

David

Alan Lenhoff

A case in point: https://reverb.com/item/59682940-1974-fender-rhodes-mark-i-stage-73-electric-piano

Retrolinear, the seller, does amazing, fussy restorations of vintage keyboard instruments, often for top artists. But if you read the description of this Rhodes, it's clear that they've examined and decided to leave in place many of the original parts that are included in those refurb kits.

Obviously, every Rhodes is different decades after its "birth." But in many cases, sticking with some of these original parts is a good decision.


Alan
Co-author, "Classic Keys: Keyboard Sounds That Launched Rock Music"

Learn about the book: http://www.classickeysbook.com/
Find it on Amazon.com: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1574417762/

1965 UK Vox Continental;1967 Gibson G101 organ; 1954 Hammond B2; Leslie 21H; Leslie 31H; 1974 Rhodes Mark I Stage 73; 1972 Rhodes Sparkletop Piano Bass; 1978 Hohner Clavinet D6; 1968 Hohner Pianet N II; 1966 Wurlitzer 140B; 1980 Moog Minimoog Model D; 1983 Roland JX-3P; 1977 Fender Twin Reverb; 1983 Roland JX-3P synth; Vox AC30CC2X amp.
(See the collection: https://vintagerockkeyboards.com/ )

Alan Lenhoff

Quote from: DAtkinson on August 22, 2022, 08:22:35 PMI definitely prefer VV's damper felts, and have experience with both. The Avion kit has extras, yes, but it's unlikely you have any need to replace bridle straps, for example. I agree with Alan - determine what would actually benefit from being replaced. e.g. Check: are the grommets pancaked and squashed, or crumbling? Are the damper felts floppy and falling off? Are the hammer tips badly beat up? (minor grooves don't count - new hammer tips begin to develop grooves almost immediately.) The attention you pay to optimizing the escapement and then the strikeline are the biggest variables by far, much more than replacing any parts.

David

What he said!!!

For me, it's hard to imagine that any Rhodes with original grommets doesn't need new grommets, and they are critical elements. But for the other parts, I'd encourage you to learn, examine and analyze before you start ripping out original parts.

Alan
Co-author, "Classic Keys: Keyboard Sounds That Launched Rock Music"

Learn about the book: http://www.classickeysbook.com/
Find it on Amazon.com: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1574417762/

1965 UK Vox Continental;1967 Gibson G101 organ; 1954 Hammond B2; Leslie 21H; Leslie 31H; 1974 Rhodes Mark I Stage 73; 1972 Rhodes Sparkletop Piano Bass; 1978 Hohner Clavinet D6; 1968 Hohner Pianet N II; 1966 Wurlitzer 140B; 1980 Moog Minimoog Model D; 1983 Roland JX-3P; 1977 Fender Twin Reverb; 1983 Roland JX-3P synth; Vox AC30CC2X amp.
(See the collection: https://vintagerockkeyboards.com/ )

tempesax

Alan and David:

Thank you very much for your great advice.

After considering your advice, I decided that the hammers are just fine as is.

I pulled one of the grommets out. It was very hard. More like a piece of plastic than rubber, so I guess I will replace the grommets.

Which do you prefer, the Avion or Vintage Vibe grommets?

The damper felts have grooves dug into them, but are not falling off. I will probably leave them alone. I took a picture of the worst offenders. Please verify that they are OK. If not, should I replace them or is there some procedure for restoring the old damper felts?

You cannot view this attachment.

Again, thank you for your help.

Mark


mvanmanen

While I love many of the parts and products of VV and Avion, as far as grommets RetroLinear has the best on the market. They are the correct shape, composition, and age very well.

For the dampers, I would probably replace them. I like the tines to dampen cleanly and evenly and when the felts are too stretched out (like the one on the far left of your picture), I imagine this is probably not happening.
Wurlitzer 200a
Wurlitzer 145
Fender Rhodes (1966, 1971, 1975)
Hohner Clavinet Pianet Duo
Hohner Clavinet D6s and C
Hohner Pianet T
Hohner Pianet N and Combo Pianet
Hammond B3

Alan Lenhoff

I'd agree that the damper felts are a good candidate for replacement.

When you replace the grommets, I'd advise replacing their screws, too.  They can get bent, which throws everything out of alignment.

Alan
Co-author, "Classic Keys: Keyboard Sounds That Launched Rock Music"

Learn about the book: http://www.classickeysbook.com/
Find it on Amazon.com: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1574417762/

1965 UK Vox Continental;1967 Gibson G101 organ; 1954 Hammond B2; Leslie 21H; Leslie 31H; 1974 Rhodes Mark I Stage 73; 1972 Rhodes Sparkletop Piano Bass; 1978 Hohner Clavinet D6; 1968 Hohner Pianet N II; 1966 Wurlitzer 140B; 1980 Moog Minimoog Model D; 1983 Roland JX-3P; 1977 Fender Twin Reverb; 1983 Roland JX-3P synth; Vox AC30CC2X amp.
(See the collection: https://vintagerockkeyboards.com/ )


gacki

Quote from: Alan Lenhoff on August 22, 2022, 08:31:34 PMA case in point: https://reverb.com/item/59682940-1974-fender-rhodes-mark-i-stage-73-electric-piano

Retrolinear, the seller, does amazing, fussy restorations of vintage keyboard instruments, often for top artists. But if you read the description of this Rhodes, it's clear that they've examined and decided to leave in place many of the original parts that are included in those refurb kits.

Just out of curiosity: A couple of pics for the reverb.com listing show grommets. Like those two:



Those don't look particularly healthy to me...

Alan Lenhoff

>>Those don't look particularly healthy to me...>>

I agree. While they specifically mention some old parts that they say still have useful life in them, they didn't mention the grommets. Perhaps this is just something they are selling-off as-is, and the comments about the useful old parts may simply be to inform a buyer that some of the usual-suspect parts don't need replacement.

Alan   
Co-author, "Classic Keys: Keyboard Sounds That Launched Rock Music"

Learn about the book: http://www.classickeysbook.com/
Find it on Amazon.com: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1574417762/

1965 UK Vox Continental;1967 Gibson G101 organ; 1954 Hammond B2; Leslie 21H; Leslie 31H; 1974 Rhodes Mark I Stage 73; 1972 Rhodes Sparkletop Piano Bass; 1978 Hohner Clavinet D6; 1968 Hohner Pianet N II; 1966 Wurlitzer 140B; 1980 Moog Minimoog Model D; 1983 Roland JX-3P; 1977 Fender Twin Reverb; 1983 Roland JX-3P synth; Vox AC30CC2X amp.
(See the collection: https://vintagerockkeyboards.com/ )

mvanmanen

Quote from: Tines&Reeds on August 25, 2022, 04:04:23 PMMay I throw in these as well :-)

https://shop.tinesandreeds.com/en/product/tone-bar-grommet-kit/

Gosh. It sure is nice to have so many options when it comes to replacement parts.
You're preamp looks and sound fabulous BTW!
Wurlitzer 200a
Wurlitzer 145
Fender Rhodes (1966, 1971, 1975)
Hohner Clavinet Pianet Duo
Hohner Clavinet D6s and C
Hohner Pianet T
Hohner Pianet N and Combo Pianet
Hammond B3

Tines&Reeds

Quote from: mvanmanen on August 27, 2022, 11:40:59 PM
Quote from: Tines&Reeds on August 25, 2022, 04:04:23 PMMay I throw in these as well :-)

https://shop.tinesandreeds.com/en/product/tone-bar-grommet-kit/

Gosh. It sure is nice to have so many options when it comes to replacement parts.
You're preamp looks and sound fabulous BTW!

Thanks! Really appreciated :-)
German Rhodes Tech nearby Hamburg / Bremen

http://www.tinesandreeds.com