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Intonating my '71 Stage

Started by Jordy, February 13, 2009, 07:09:31 AM

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Jordy

Hi guys,

B4 to E5 sounds a LOT more trebly than the other notes on my Rhodes.
Which screws should I turn (and in which direction) and can it be cured at all?

Thanks,
Jordy
'71 Stage 73  >>  Fender Hot Rod Deluxe

Ben Bove

Is that the very top octave?  I'm trying to remember if that would then be woodcore tips.  You might be able to immediately resolve it with EQ if it's the very top.
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Jordy

Quote from: "bjammerz"Is that the very top octave?  I'm trying to remember if that would then be woodcore tips.  You might be able to immediately resolve it with EQ if it's the very top.

Nah, it's not an EQ-case already tried that. (you mean external EQ right?)




It are just these keys which I've trouble with. (the rest is just fabulous)
'71 Stage 73  >>  Fender Hot Rod Deluxe

Ben Bove

Are the hammertips the square cube felts or the neoprene?

It could be either bad grooves in the tips, possibly a moving of pickups back/tone adjustment (screw farthest from the keys), or maybe the strikeline is off and they're twanging a bit - but that's least likely.
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Jordy

Quote from: "bjammerz"Are the hammertips the square cube felts or the neoprene?

It could be either bad grooves in the tips, possibly a moving of pickups back/tone adjustment (screw farthest from the keys), or maybe the strikeline is off and they're twanging a bit - but that's least likely.

They're black and rubbery, i think it's the neoprene.

-The tips contain no grooves whatsoever
-I kept tweeking the furthest screw a couple of minutes now, and I know what it's suppost to do, but it didn't make any difference.

So, how do I know if the strikeline is of?

And, maybe helpful; B4 to E5 are clicking a lot more when the hood is of (acousticly-speaking, (I made an YT-video for clarifying that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeZtj1asLG8)
(thanks btw, for helping so far)
'71 Stage 73  >>  Fender Hot Rod Deluxe

Dan Belcher

For what it's worth, those keys are right where there's usually a jump in hammer tip hardness.  On my 1978 Rhodes there's a noticable treble jump when hitting that area as well.
Proud owner,
1978 Rhodes Mark I Stage 73

sean

Hey Jordy,

It sounds to me like you have a combination of hard hammer tips and really low escapement on those notes.   Try raising the whole tonebar/tine assembly up 1/8" or more, and see if the clack goes away.

If the clack becomes less annoying, then simply adjust the screws back down gradually to get the tone you want.

Drastic changes in escapement will cause a change in the location that the hammer tip hits the tine.  (The clacky noise could be helped by a strike point too close to the base of the tine, but the surrounding notes don't seem to suffer from that, so I wouldn't worry about a strikeline problem.)  Use strikeline as a final-stages-of-perfection adjustment.

While you are focused on these notes, take a few moments to confirm that the hammers themselves are securely mounted to the action rail, and the hammer comb is not loose.

Also, your 1971 piano has the head-heavy half-wood hammers with tall square neoprene tips, right?  This makes tip replacement more difficult (harder to find the tall square tips, or you have to re-set the harp shims to compensate for the smaller trapezoidal/pointed replacement tips).

If those few tips are remarkably hardened, you can try removing a sliver off the top of the tip with an exacto knife (be prepared to cut your finger and drip a little blood on the piano).  The chewy center of the hammer tip might be soft enough to fix your problem.

Jordy

Quote from: "sean"Hey Jordy,

It sounds to me like you have a combination of hard hammer tips and really low escapement on those notes.   Try raising the whole tonebar/tine assembly up 1/8" or more, and see if the clack goes away.

If the clack becomes less annoying, then simply adjust the screws back down gradually to get the tone you want.

Drastic changes in escapement will cause a change in the location that the hammer tip hits the tine.  (The clacky noise could be helped by a strike point too close to the base of the tine, but the surrounding notes don't seem to suffer from that, so I wouldn't worry about a strikeline problem.)  Use strikeline as a final-stages-of-perfection adjustment.

While you are focused on these notes, take a few moments to confirm that the hammers themselves are securely mounted to the action rail, and the hammer comb is not loose.

Also, your 1971 piano has the head-heavy half-wood hammers with tall square neoprene tips, right?  This makes tip replacement more difficult (harder to find the tall square tips, or you have to re-set the harp shims to compensate for the smaller trapezoidal/pointed replacement tips).

If those few tips are remarkably hardened, you can try removing a sliver off the top of the tip with an exacto knife (be prepared to cut your finger and drip a little blood on the piano).  The chewy center of the hammer tip might be soft enough to fix your problem.

I think I will get that done by a tech. But I don't have the money right now. I've got some pretty good results by turning the other screw too. I pretty happy now with it.  Is it possible to break something or something could be damaged by turning the screws?

Thanks so far, guys!
'71 Stage 73  >>  Fender Hot Rod Deluxe

sean

You will not break anything.  It isn't difficult or mysterious at all.

The operation of the two screws is shown here:
http://www.fenderrhodes.com/org/manual/fig4-4.gif
(Relevant text from the service manual is http://www.fenderrhodes.com/org/manual/ch4.html#4-1 )

Of the two screws that hold the tonebar, the screw nearest the keycaps is used to adjust the whole assembly up-and-down, so this is the gross adjustment for escapement.  The other screw (toward the back of the piano), is used for fine adjustments of the position of the tine relative to the pickup.  

I guess you could damage things if you cranked the screws really tight, but why would you do that?  You can completely loosen them, and the tonebar will come loose in your hands.  Simply screw them back in carefully.  Hardly a risky procedure.

Loosen the screw closest to the namerail, and that will increase the escapement (and also mis-align the tip of the tine with regard to the pickup).  When you adjust the "escapement screw" you have to re-position the tine with the "timbre adjustment" screw.

Set the tine position according to your preference for the sound produced, with this general guide:
http://www.fenderrhodes.com/service/tine-settings.php

Francis Mc Hammercomb

Why not try the yellow tips in that range?

Love , Francis

Ben Bove

Yes, actually now that you "took the hood off to hear it better" then it's certainly the hammertip hardness change, mechanical noise.  This is a common problem, the hammertips need to get hardner in order to be dense enough to strike the tines.  There isn't much you can do besides experiment with changing the hammertips to a lighter shore... however eventually it will have to be hard enough in the extreme upper register or the tines will not ring properly on attack.
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Jordy

Quote from: "bjammerz"Yes, actually now that you "took the hood off to hear it better" then it's certainly the hammertip hardness change, mechanical noise.  This is a common problem, the hammertips need to get hardner in order to be dense enough to strike the tines.  There isn't much you can do besides experiment with changing the hammertips to a lighter shore... however eventually it will have to be hard enough in the extreme upper register or the tines will not ring properly on attack.

That seems most logical to me. After I bought some monitors for my Hammond I'll ttry that.

Thanks ;)
'71 Stage 73  >>  Fender Hot Rod Deluxe

Jordy

Hi guys,

Now that my English is much better (:P) I can confirm the tips from 44 to 57 are feeling quite harder than the lower.
57 to 73 feels hard to, and I'm not sure if is the wooden core than makes it feel 'harder' or just the hardened rubber. 57 to 73 are making much more of the 'mechanical noise' than the below 44 so shave some of the top of the tips would improve the sound.

The tips from 57 to 73 contain less rubber than the lower ones, because of it is partly wood. Would it be save to shave those as well??

And if I would shave the tips (44, >) should i take the hammertip of the hammer, or should i take the whole hammer out of the piano? Or can I just shave a bit of the tip while it's entirely assembled?

Thanks
Jordy
'71 Stage 73  >>  Fender Hot Rod Deluxe

Jordy

'71 Stage 73  >>  Fender Hot Rod Deluxe