action problem with 1976

[GetWithTheTines]

Hi everyone.

I have a 1976 Stage with bare pedestals and white felt on plastic hammers. When I press some of the keys down, I hear a scraping sound and there is a little more resistance than other keys. It's happening for most of the keys, although seems to be a little more so in the  mid-range.

At first, I thought it was the bushings, but I lifted the hammer up and moved the key up and down and the sound was gone. Therefore, it has to be the way the hammer is contacting the pedestal. Is this a common symptom of needing to replace the felts? How do you know when the hammer felt needs to be replaced?

I tried cleaning the felt with a toothbrush and it actually did seem to help a little, but the scraping sound is still there. I'm guessing I need to replace the felt, but I didn't see any of the white hammer felt on Vintage Vibe's web site; just the red pedestal felt for $28. Are most people just putting new felt on the pedestal now, rather than putting it back on the hammer?

Also, I have some teflon powder and was toying with the idea of brushing some on the hammer felt with a toothbrush. Is that a bad idea? I thought I read a post before where someone was pleading with users on the forum not to use teflon there because it gets into the wood of the pedestals and makes it impossible to get something to stick to it later on.

Thanks.

[Rob A]

Yes, you'll upset Rob Coops with Teflon.

Did you check that the hammer combs are secured? I'm kind of wondering what could cause your symptom--the felt is there or not there, but you didn't really mention it.

I'd take off the name rail, then raise the harp and look at the contact from pedestal to hammer on your messed up keys while playing those notes. You should be able to easily see if there's interference.

[GetWithTheTines]

Thanks. I actually did have the name rail removed and the felt is definitely there. I looked at the felt and it's dirty, but I touched it with my finger and it feels pretty smooth. I should also mention that the action was stiffer and the noise was more pronounced before cleaning out a lot of debris from the key bed, but the action is still somewhat noisy. I probably should have described it as a brushing sound, not a scraping sound. It sounds like felt against wood. I thought that maybe that would occur when the felt is old and worn out.

It really seems to me like it's the felt on the hammer, but I just wanted to see if anyone here experienced this problem and if replacing the felt was effective. Also, does anyone know if the red felt from VV can be applied to the hammer instead of the pedestal? Would the action change much if I put it on the pedestal instead of the hammer. I know some people find the action with the felt on the hammer very desirable.

[swenz]

I had the same problem on my early 1977 suitcase.  It also has the white felt on the hammers and I was getting a pronounced rubbing noise and sluggish feel all through the middle of the keyboard.  I removed all the keys and cleaned out the case, I eased the bushings where they seemed a bit tight and I lubed the key posts.  None of this made any real difference.  I then physically removed the hammer combs and lubed the felts with a silicone spray.  You can probably lube them in place if you're careful with the spray but I wanted to avoid getting it all over everything.  Anyway, that seems to have almost entirely resolved the problem for me.  I suspect that the felts really should be replaced and I'll probably do that soon but the silicone made a world of difference for now.  I suspect that the middle of the keyboard feels more sluggish simply because it gets the most play and the felts probably wear down more because of that.

Regarding the replacement of the white felt, I have the same questions as you.  I don't know whether there's any issue with using the VV felt on the hammers and furthermore I'm wondering if I should go away from the felt on the hammers all together and put the new felt on the pedestal.  And if I do that, should I put the miracle mod in?  I'd really like to know what you end up doing and how you like it.

[GetWithTheTines]

I might try the silcone spray, but is that any better than using teflon?

A) I thought it causes the felts to fall off. Maybe you just have to use it judiciously?

B) Will that also get into the wood of the pedestal and make it difficult to apply felt to (which I may end up having to do)?

I also have McLube 444, Protek CLP, and TFL-50 (dry). Not sure if using any of those is wise in this case.

Whatever I end up doing, I'll definitely share my results.

[swenz]

I'm not sure whether silicone is any better (or worse) then teflon.  I went with silicone simply because I had it available and as far as I could tell, it was the original factory recommended approach.  My understanding is that if you thoroughly saturate the felt it will loosen the adhesive enough for the felt to be easily removed.  I sprayed my felts lightly, let them dry for 30 minutes then sprayed them lightly again.  I didn't have any problem with felts falling off, etc.

I don't think there is a significant concern with the silicone getting into the pedestal wood as long as you don't overdo it with the silicone and let it rest for 30 minutes or so before playing.  The factory service manual (in the section that details the pedestal modification procedure) says to use a Naphtha based solvent to wipe each key pedestal to remove any trace of lubrication that may have previously been applied.  So, in the event that silicone does get onto the pedestals I'm trusting that this will alleviate the concern.

I found the following statement by Steve Woodyard interesting in that it implies that felt-on-hammer may be more likely to wear out then felt-on-pedestal.  This is from his "Action Inspection" recommendations.

For a time the key pedestal felt was changed to a white felt and was installed on the hammer curve instead of the pedestal. The action modification listed in the service manual discusses the removal and pedestal re-installation. It does not address failure of the white felt due to wear. This wear can be accelerated due to the rough nature of the bare wood key pedestal. Replace the damaged felts or perform the modification.

[GetWithTheTines]

Good info. Thanks. I also found this video by the folks at Vintage Vibe that discusses this to some extent:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-Z3zoIesYU&NR=1

However, they don't mention whether you should apply the felt to the hammer or the pedestal when replacing all of the felts or if you can use the red felt on the hammer cams. They were just re-attaching the white felt to the hammer cam in this case b/c it was still in good condition.

[bumpyrhode]

For a full replacement I would think putting it on the pedestals would be better. Fender found
that out and switched back to the felt-on-pedestal method.

If you think about it, there is no way the wood pedestal will be as smooth as the plastic hammer.
The wood will "grip" the felt more where as the plastic hammer will slide on the felt better. Since
the hammer is the part that moves it needs to slide on the felt not pull the felt with its' movement.

Try it for yourelf. Take a piece of felt and rub it on something plastic, then rub it on a piece of
smooth unfinished wood. I'm sure you will notice the difference.

[Rob A]

Yeah but my pedestal tops are pretty well burnished smooth from the contact. Are yours (anyone's) rough and unfinished?

[swenz]

Mine are very smooth as well.  There may have been some friction when the piano was new but at this point they feel very smooth.  Which is why I'm up in the air about where to put the new felts when I replace them.

[bumpyrhode]

Well, in my mind it makes sense.

Then again, my mind can be troublesome at times.

[Rob A]

Here's a couple shots of mine, how does yours compare?
http://music.linear1.org/i/pict4960.jpg
http://music.linear1.org/i/pict4951.jpg

[bumpyrhode]

Mine doesn't compare because it's a '78. Felt on pedestals with factory bump.

Those do look pretty smooth. Has anyone ever done a comparison?

[GetWithTheTines]

Rob: Your felts look brand new compared to mine. Mine are very dirty. Even the pedestals are a little black on mine. I did clean out a lot of dirt, dust bunnies, etc. when I cleaned the key bed. I think I might try using a very high grain sandpaper on the pedestals and giving the felts one more good cleaning, but I'm really thinking I will end up replacing them.

Here's the video describing how to install the Miracle Mod on a 76 piano:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UVcRvnolQQ

In this case, they left the felt on the hammer because it was in good condition. If the felt is not in good condition (as mine is), I wonder if it's worth the trouble of re-installing it back on the hammer, rather than putting it on the pedestal. My reasoning for doing so is that I could put the bump on the bare pedestal and see whether I like the difference the miracle mod makes, and be able to remove it without removing the felt.

However, I'm concerned that it will make the action too light. If it's going to make it much lighter, maybe I'll just put it on the pedestal without the bump. Can anyone speak to the difference in the action when putting the felt on the hammer vs the pedestal?

[swenz]

My felts look much like Rob's in terms of dirt/color but mine appear to be much more compressed, at least through the middle range of the keyboard.  Rob, have yours been replaced or are they original?

If anyone has added the bump (miracle mod) to a keyboard that didn't previously have it, regardless of the felt location, I'd be interested in hearing your opinion on how significantly it changed the action.  It sounds like GetWithTheTines and I are both up in the air about adding it.

I'm planning to do a full key cap job on my piano in the next few months and I might re-felt the bushings while I'm at it.  It would obviously be a convenient time to redo the felts so I'd like to make a decision on where to put them soon.

[GetWithTheTines]

Yeah, sorry. I am curious about what the effects of the miracle mod are (especially how much it lightens the action), but I didn't mean to turn this into a "Miracle Mod" thread. I know there are already some pretty lengthy threads on that topic.

I guess I'm more concerned with whether there's a difference in the action when putting the felt on the hammer vs the pedestal. The quote about the felt wearing out more quickly on the hammer makes me think that there might be a little more resistance and slightly heavier action, which I actually prefer.

If the mod lightens the action significantly and there's no difference in the action when putting the felt on the pedestal, I'd prefer to put it there because I wouldn't have to worry about the felt not being aligned and hammers resting unevenly and messing with the escapement.

[GetWithTheTines]

It would be great if someone from Vintage Vibe could provide some insight on this. I'd post to their forum but they seem to have stopped posting there the last few months - probably busy building their new pianos :-)

[SWANG]

i added the miracle mod on my stage a few years ago, and it made a world of difference.  much easier on the fingers (glissandos in particular used to be painful).  really cut down significantly on double striking as well.  just an overall "lighter" feel - ideal for someone like me who has a light touch but wants that aggression during louder sections and solos.

[Fred]

  We've done a number of '76's and on those that we relocated the felt to the pedistals (and added the miracle mod), the action feels very similar to the factory bump mod of the late '70's... Very quick.

  On those that had decent felts on the hammer cam, we simply added the bump to the bare pedistal. This did lighten up the action, though not as much as the piano with relocated felt... And it felt good!!! A little heavier feel, and some folks prefer that.

I suggest trying a minimum of three notes in either configuration. This will give you a side-by-side comparison of the feel before you go and set up an entire piano to possibly less than desirable results. (It's all a matter of personal preference) Do this in the midrange where escapement doesn't have to be so extreme. In either case, you'll want to remove ALL TRACES of the original adhesive. Naptha, a rag, and some elbow grease will work great... 

[GetWithTheTines]

Thanks, Fred & Swang! That's exactly the information I was looking for.

[swenz]

Fred, Swang,

Thanks for the info and recommendations.  When I do the felts on mine I'll definitely take your advice and do 3 or 4 keys in each configuration to see how they compare, that's a great idea.

[GetWithTheTines]

After struggling with this for a few days, I have an update:

So.. when I started, my pedestals and hammer felts were a gray color. As I mentioned, the key bed was pretty dirty when I removed the keys. I also saw some signs of graphite, so I think some of the color change was due to that. I started by sanding the pedestals with 600 grain sandpaper. This didn't return it all the way to the natural wood color, but it did remove much of the gray color and got them to be quite smooth. I put the keys back in and the rubbing sound remained, although it was a little better.

I thought that the sound must be due to the felts because the pedestals were now very smooth, so I decided to replace the felts on the hammers. I started by removing all of the felts from the hammers. What a tedious job! It took me several hours to get all of that glue off using naphtha and a rag, as Fred suggested (as well as *a lot* of elbow grease), but I finally got the hammers free of all traces of the glue. I then put the new felt on the hammers and installed them back in the piano. The rubbing sound was still there!!

I then figured it had to be the pedestals, so I moved all of the felts from the hammers to the pedestals. Fortunately, the felts weren't on the hammers very long so the glue hadn't set completely and peeled right off. After moving them to the pedestals, the rubbing sound did noticeably lessen, but it's still there to some degree. The only thing left that I can do is put some kind of lubrication on the felts. I'm thinking of using either silicone spray, graphite, or teflon powder. (I know that won't make Rob Coops very happy, but maybe it's better to put the teflon on the pedestal felt rather than the hammer felt because it won't make contact with the wood?) I might try about 3 keys with each and see what the effects are.

I left a few of the felts on the hammers so that I could compare the two. I have to say that I didn't really notice much of a difference in the action between having them on the hammer vs the pedestal (other than the sound). Maybe it's just too hard to tell with only a few keys, or maybe it's just a very subtle difference. I also might try putting the bump on a few and let everyone know my impression of the change that it makes. However, I'm afraid I won't be able to remove the felts again and retain the adhesiveness. If the adhesive on the felts loses it's stickiness, what kind of glue should I use to reattach it to the pedestal? I was thinking I would just use tacky glue.

Anyway, I just wanted to share my results with everyone. Hope this helps you, Swenz.

Thanks for your help, everyone.

[swenz]

Thought I'd post an updated status here too.

I finally got around to replacing the felts on my 1977 Suitcase.  It was a time consuming process but it was a good opportunity to completely disassemble the thing right down to the bare case and clean it up really well.  I ended up removing the felts from the hammer cams and relocating them to the key pedestals.  I used the VV miracle mod kit so I added the bump mod in addition to the new felts.

The end result is a very, very smooth and fast action which I really like, although, I can understand how some might find it a bit too light if they're used to the original feel of the older Rhodes.  The action is so smooth with the bump and the new felts that I don't see any need to lube the new felts at all.  My next project will be to recap all my keys and possibly re-felt all the bushings.  I'm assuming there are past threads with information on those procedures so I'll be doing some searching.

GWTT, have you been able to make any progress in tracking down the rubbing sound you were getting?

[GetWithTheTines]

I discovered that the "scraping" sound (rubbing of felt on wood) remained somewhat after moving the felt to the pedestals. I left a few on the hammers and it was definitely louder with the felt on the hammers - makes sense, since the wood pedestals are not as smooth as the plastic hammers. I tried to put some McLube, silicone spray, and teflon powder on a few of the felts after they were on the pedestals to compare and it didn't seem to make a difference. Maybe I didn't put enough on, though.

I would also say that the action is just *slightly* heavier with the felt on the hammer, probably due to the increased friction of the felt against the wood vs felt against plastic. It wasn't really noticeable on just a few keys, but might be more noticeable when playing the full keyboard with them on the hammers.

In summary, I think the rubbing sound might be a normal thing and maybe is not noticeable with the cover on and the amp turned up. Initially, I thought it might not be normal b/c my suitcase is pretty much totally silent, even with the cover off (it has the bump mod and a healthy dose of what appears to be graphite on the pedestal felts).

[Rhodesman73]

Hi everyone.

I have a 1976 Stage with bare pedestals and white felt on plastic hammers. When I press some of the keys down, I hear a scraping sound and there is a little more resistance than other keys. It's happening for most of the keys, although seems to be a little more so in the  mid-range.

At first, I thought it was the bushings, but I lifted the hammer up and moved the key up and down and the sound was gone. Therefore, it has to be the way the hammer is contacting the pedestal. Is this a common symptom of needing to replace the felts? How do you know when the hammer felt needs to be replaced?

I tried cleaning the felt with a toothbrush and it actually did seem to help a little, but the scraping sound is still there. I'm guessing I need to replace the felt, but I didn't see any of the white hammer felt on Vintage Vibe's web site; just the red pedestal felt for $28. Are most people just putting new felt on the pedestal now, rather than putting it back on the hammer?

Also, I have some teflon powder and was toying with the idea of brushing some on the hammer felt with a toothbrush. Is that a bad idea? I thought I read a post before where someone was pleading with users on the forum not to use teflon there because it gets into the wood of the pedestals and makes it impossible to get something to stick to it later on.

Thanks.

I have a 1976 Stage 73 that had the same problem.  I work on Rhodes pianos quite a bit and I use a product called DRI-SLIDE.  It's a liquid with a Molybdenum disulfide base. I got it many years ago through a piano technician parts distributor ( cant remember the dealers name).  It lsts Freemont, MI as where it's made...but that was over 30 years ago.  It takes very little. I still have bbout 15% left of an 8 oz can  I put a little on each felt and let it soak in.  The liquid dries leaving what looks like a graphite film.  I also used a little on the key pivot pins / bushings.  I did that back in the early 80's and the piano still plays like a dream.