Author Topic: Annoying keys!!  (Read 2405 times)

Offline Wavedude

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Annoying keys!!
« on: March 22, 2011, 12:34:45 AM »
I have had it with these weird keys on my Rhodes. Everyone I know gets annoyed with them including me. Whats wrong? Here's a soundcloud demo, just strait clean. You can hear the annoying pinging of the two D keys. I have even found more keys similar to these two.

http://snd.sc/dQDL13

Thanks
Fender Rhodes 88 key - Suitcase Model

Offline rockstardave

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Re: Annoying keys!!
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2011, 02:01:38 AM »
No matter what I do to F above middle C, it sounds even worse than your pinger :P  I've wondered about that pesky note.  Best guess:  Probably a bad tine, maybe a cheap replacement from before I bought my piano, or just a bad tine from the factory.  Either way, I have some spares, so I'll change it out and see if it helps.  Will report back later...
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Offline Tim Hodges

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Re: Annoying keys!!
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2011, 07:28:25 AM »
Try removing the tine and re-attaching it to the tonebar. I had a few keys which were similar I then found out that there was a little extra plating on the tonebars near the screw hole which made an uneven mounting. I re-attached them (after making it flush) and adjusted it back to normal.

Give it a go and see if it helps.

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Offline Dan Belcher

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Re: Annoying keys!!
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2011, 08:34:58 AM »
Yeah, the pinging keys are pretty bad. It certainly sounds like the tine isn't able to vibrate freely like it's supposed to. Either the tine itself is bad, or the mounting between the tine and the tonebar isn't solid enough, and the whole unit can't vibrate properly. I agree with tjh392, try removing the tine from the tonebar and then reattach it. When you put the tine back on, don't be afraid to put a little elbow grease behind it it. You need to make sure the entire unit operates as one body when the tine is struck and starts to vibrate. If that still doesn't work, you may have a bad tine. I recently got a replacement tine that just thunked when I struck it, and it turned out that it was indeed just a bad tine. It happens.

BTW, your piano sounds great aside from those couple of bad keys. :)
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1978 Rhodes Mark I Stage 73

Offline Alan Lenhoff

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Re: Annoying keys!!
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2011, 11:36:03 AM »
Quote
When you put the tine back on, don't be afraid to put a little elbow grease behind it it.

Well, not too much.  I recently needed to tighten a tine. I put it in a vice, and tightened it with a socket wrench.  Didn't think I exerted that much force, but ended up shearing off the bolt top.  The miracle workers at my local hardware store sold me a screw extractor and a bolt for a few $$, and I was back in business.

Remember, it's easier to tighten it a little more if you need to than to have to play amateur machinist to extract a broken bolt.

Alan
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Offline Dan Belcher

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Re: Annoying keys!!
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2011, 12:59:59 PM »
Hence why I said "a little" instead of "a lot"  ;D
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Offline Alan Lenhoff

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Re: Annoying keys!!
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2011, 02:27:00 PM »
I think we're both exceeding the limitations of this medium by suggesting that anyone might be able to discern something useful from the description  "a little"  (your words) or "not too much"  (my words).

In the archives, there are several references to the proper spec for tightening this bolt to be 35 inch pounds of torque. That's not all that tight.  If you use a wrench and exert force on it at a point 6 inches away from the bolt, you'd be about right if you pushed it with six pounds of force. I'd think the force you can exert with three straight fingers pushing the wrench ought to do the job.

In contrast, my Honda lawn mower manual recommends tightening the blade to about 45 FOOT pounds, which is roughly 15 times the torque required for the tine.)

So, when anyone is tightening a tine, if you're using a long wrench, or you're pushing from your shoulder, or leaning your body weight on it when you tighten, or leaving a "Craftsman" imprint in your palm when you push, you've probably got a trip to the hardware store in your future.

Alan
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1965 UK Vox Continental;1967 Gibson G101 organ; 1954 Hammond B2; Leslie 21H; Leslie 31H; 1974 Rhodes Mark I Stage 73; 1972 Rhodes Sparkletop Piano Bass; 1978 Hohner Clavinet D6; 1968 Hohner Pianet N II; 1966 Wurlitzer 140B; 1980 Moog Minimoog Model D; 1977 Fender Twin Reverb; Vox AC30CC2X amp.
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Offline Rob A

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Re: Annoying keys!!
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2011, 03:08:41 PM »
Yep, I got a milspec torque wrench calibrated in in-lb a while ago and subsequently set out to discover how much torque 35 in-lb was. I could not reliably apply that small an amount of torque, that's how much.

Offline Dan Belcher

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Re: Annoying keys!!
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2011, 03:27:59 PM »
I guess that's the confusion -- I'm using a really small, light-weight wrench, or in the case of the Speakeasy reproduction tine I recently tried (it sounds great BTW), an allen wrench. Hard to create very much torque with those tools.
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Offline Wavedude

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Re: Annoying keys!!
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2011, 12:23:31 PM »
I tried tightening it as hard as a could. Still giving me that annoying pinging. When I take the tine off the tonebar, it still gives me that ping when I hit it, so it must be a bad tine. Thanks a bunch for the help, ill keep all this in mind if I have any other keys like this.
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Offline Ben Bove

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Re: Annoying keys!!
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2011, 05:50:32 PM »
First off, what vintage piano is this?  A Mark II maybe 1980?

My initial thought is it's definitely not a dead tine.  I'm definitely hearing double striking going on with that D key, *du-guu*, meaning the tine is getting struck once, then getting tapped again which is killing the sustain.

I'm also hearing 2 distinct hits, so I don't believe it's hitting the damper felt.  I believe straight up double hammer strike.  An easy way to check is if the double striking still happens with the sustain pedal all the way down.  I assume it will still double strike.

If you unscrew the phillips screws holding down the harp on the sides, flip it up and rest it on the rails, so the harp is resting vertical and facing you.  If you pluck with your hand the "D" in question, I'm sure it will give you one nice clean sound.  If it doesn't let me know and go elsewhere with it.

With that being said, I think it's an escapement problem - either too much distance between tines or too close.  You may need to adjust the height of the harp where it rests, meaning removing the 2 shims (if they're there) right underneath the harp where they rest on the rails, and replace with thinner ones.  Possibly just the right sided one.  My guess is when you play in the upper register, if you play really hard or medium there's no real difference?  Kind of not a lot of dynamics?  I seem to run into this a lot around 1980s era.

I would maybe try screwing down the single D tonebar, playing with the individual escapement (and then just eyeing it up with its neighbors if you need to get it back to the original spot).  See if changing the height of the single tonebar affects the double striking.  But my thoughts are if the piano was set up and gone through a bit it's a problem that could be rectified without changing parts.
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Offline pianotuner steveo

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Re: Annoying keys!!
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2011, 08:15:22 PM »
I agree with Ben. It sounds like an escapement issue. Also, is your harp pushed too far towards the back of the keyboard? It may be missing the sweet spot of the tine- hitting too close to the mounting end.
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Offline Wavedude

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Re: Annoying keys!!
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2011, 01:38:17 AM »
I've tried everything you guys suggested and looked into it being any of those possibilities. The "ping" is still there. It's even there when I pluck the tine with my finger, so shouldn't that mean its a bad tine? No matter where I have that thing, its going make that awful sound. Double striking was a great possibility, though, that's definitely something I want to fix. Should I just go ahead and order new tines?
Fender Rhodes 88 key - Suitcase Model

Offline pianotuner steveo

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Re: Annoying keys!!
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2011, 10:21:43 PM »
Did you unbolt the tine, clean the area where it mounts on both the tine and tonebar, then remount it?

I would try that before replacing it.

I didnt re-read every post- did you check the grommets also?
1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
1968 Gibson G101 Combo organ
1975 Rhodes Piano Bass
1979 Wurlitzer 206A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 270 Butterfly Grand
2004 Hammond XK3
2009 73A Rhodes Mark 7
2009 Korg SV-1 73
2017 Yamaha P255
2020 Kawai CA99
....and a few guitars...

Offline Wavedude

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Re: Annoying keys!!
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2011, 12:48:46 AM »
Yeah, I tried remounting them again, they are definitely flush. Grommets could definitely be an issue. One of them fell apart while handling, so that's a problem.

I switched tines and tonebars between a problem key and its neighbor to see if it was indeed a tine problem. The problem tine sounds fine on another key, but the one on the D key is still giving that noise. This must mean it is a hammer problem, but I don't know what else to do, I already tried adjusting escapement, no luck. Its definitely double striking, but I don't know how to get rid of it.
Fender Rhodes 88 key - Suitcase Model