How do I know if I've found a Rhodes worth buying?

[tylert]

I've found a guy in my area selling his rhodes. He's not sure of the exact date, but its got the Fender Rhodes logo so I would imagine its and earlier one. I've tried to do my homework on these things to narrow down what I want. I definitely want a Mark 1 and I do like the tone of the earlier ones, however I know that finding a "good" one is hit or miss. I've heard people say that sometimes there's nothing you can do to make some of them sound good. This is a bit confusing to me as I haven't played enough to know. Is it something that jumps out at you? Or is it something that you find out the hard way?  apparently he's the second owner and was good friends with the original owner. He says its been stored in a dry place but hasn't been played (aside from testing it out to sell it) in 6 years. I guess he's a guitar player who wanted to learn the keys, but never really did much with it.  He's asking $800 for it but he said he's willing to take a fair offer. Can you guys please give me a few pointers on what exactly to look for and or listen for. I can't afford to make a bad investment and my dreams of owning a rhodes would of course be shattered if I bought a lemon.

Thanks in advance guys

[The Real MC]

You don't tell us if he is selling a suitcase piano or a stage piano, 73 key or 88 key.

$800 is fair for a suitcase piano, too much for a stage piano.

If you're gigging with it, suitcase pianos are a bear to lug around.  88 key pianos in either format are a bear too.

If it is a stage piano make sure it has the legs, the leg braces, the sustain pedal, and the sustain pedal rod.  These are often misplaced.

The extra keys on an 88 don't really sound that great and don't add much to the sound unless you like doing RH glissandos like a real piano.

Action is the one thing to beware of.  Many Rhodes pianos old and new suffer from a spongy action that is hard to play fast runs and can hurt your hands after a long session.  Action can be improved but I would recommend Vintage Vibe or other reputable shop do the improvement.  There have been many failed DIY attempts to improve the action which can damage the piano.  If you encounter spongy action be prepared to put some elbow grease or $$$ into it.

Don't bother trying to replace the keysets to improve the action.  They used different sources throughout the years and none of them are interchangeable.  This is because the holes don't line up to the pins and the pins can't be relocated.  The same manufacturer will even change the location of the pins in a later keyset!

Inspect the tips of the hammers for wear in the form of grooves.  Also inspect the tines for rust.  If it is a suitcase piano, turn the vibrato on and make sure both stereo channels work.  These are not hard to remedy.

And finally, the tone.  When they left the factory they were not optimized for good tone, and "good tone" is a personal preference.  Many players never tweaked the escapement, the tine position relative to the pickup, or the distance from the pickup to the tine so you may encounter a nonideal sound.  All these can be adjusted by the player, and the amp of choice can go a long way to getting "your sound".  If the action is good, then tweaking the tone isn't hard.

[Rob A]

Can you guys please give me a few pointers on what exactly to look for and or listen for.

Here you go.

[Alan Lenhoff]

Rob A. has a great buyer's guide that'll probably answer most of your questions:  http://ep-forum.com/smf/index.php?topic=6140.0

I would add this:  Assuming you're buying a Stage model (without a built-in amp), if there isn't any obvious major problem (water damage, extensive rust, lots of missing parts, busted case, etc.), most of the things that tend to wear out on a Rhodes (like the hammer tips, grommets, felts, etc.) are not terribly expensive or difficult to replace.  

But some of that work can be tedious -- which means you either need a lot of time/patience to do-it-yourself (including spending a lot of time reading the archives of this list for some pointers) or you need a lot of money to have a tech do it.

How much time/money you invest will not only depend on the condition of the piano, but also on how much you want it to be "perfect."

I don't know where you live, but prices seem to have slumped considerably with the economic downturn.  For $800 in most large US cities, I'd think you ought to be able to find a Rhodes Stage that's in very good cosmetic shape, and pretty much ready to play -- needing only minor service/adjustments.  If this one's a wreck, he's asking too much.

Alan

[tylert]

Thanks for the advice guys. Yeah its a 73 stage. I'm gonna try and talk him down to $600 and If he doesn't take it then I'm not gonna do it. I'd love to be able to afford a Vintage Vibe 64 those sound amazing but I just don't see myself having that kind of money anytime soon. That Guide it great Rob.

[tylert]

So Rob's guide seems to suggest the overall tone/sound of any Rhodes can be improved where as the action is the deciding factor. I was under the impression that most of the earlier "Fender Rhodes" had bad or heavy action. Is that true? Is it wise to take the harp off for a closer inspection of the tines, grommets, and pickups?

[Rob A]

Action can sure be improved/repaired as well. I'm trying to suggest that tone is relatively easier to adjust, and a tone issue shouldn't be a deal breaker. Action problems could be deal breakers depending on your comfort in doing that sort of work.

If you know you hate the feel of the thing and don't know what (specifically) to do about that, don't buy it. That may be a better way to put it. They don't all feel horrible.

[Alan Lenhoff]

The truth is that none of them play like a concert grand -- so don't expect that.  And none have keys that return fast enough to allow you to "sputter" (trilling on a single note) like a Hammond jazz player might do.

I found a significant difference between the relatively heavy touch on my 1973 (which was not modified in any way, but was nicely adjusted and lubed to make the action as light as possible), and my more recently acquired 1979, which has a lighter action, thanks to the factory pedestal bump.

If I had to choose between them, I would probably prefer the '79.  But you get tend to get used to what you have, and when the '73 was the only Rhodes I owned,  I found it totally acceptable.  (In fact, I felt like it helped me build finger strength, and made me a better player of other keyboard instruments.)

So, I don't think this is a big deal.  Just buy one that makes you smile when you play it.

Alan

[tylert]

Thanks guys. So do you think that $600 to $675 is a good price for a Fender Rhodes logo model? I'm from a small town of Connecticut where you rarely hear about Rhodes pianos let alone people that even know what they are. $800 is definitely out of the question seeing how I just missed my chance at a refurbished 77' for $1000. I mention that to the seller and his reply was  "Yeah well this is a Fender Rhodes Logo". Do those years tend to be worth more?

[bumpyrhode]

To my understanding, "Fender" was dropped off the logo to allow more dealers
to sell the piano. For example; A music store carried Gibson guitars and the
contract with Gibson stated that they couldn't sell Fender products because
they were a competing company. Therefore, the store could not sell "Fender Rhodes"
pianos because Fender and Gibson were adversarial companies even if just in
the Guitar segment. Dropping "Fender" off the logo allowed that store to sell the
piano without breaking the contract with Gibson.

Regardless of the name I believe the changes made to the piano were the natural
progression and development of the instrument. Having "Fender" on the logo is a
cool thing but I've picked up a Rhodes '78 88 key and a '79 73 key and from what
I've read on this forum in the last few months I feel lucky because both have the
factory bump on the key pedestals. It's the prospective buyers interest in the sound,
playability and overall condition of the individual piano that's important and sets the price.

I picked up the '78 88 key Stage complete for $500 and the 73 key (missing legs)
someone gave to me. I actually paid more ($700 shipped) for a pair of Rhodes satellite
speakers.

While not necessarily in your immediate area, I've seen plenty in the northeast listed
for less than what this seller wants.

[bumpyrhode]

Is this the one in questions? It does look pretty clean.

http://newlondon.craigslist.org/msg/2327061192.html

[tylert]

Yes it is. I was just gonna post the pics. What do you guy's think?

[pianotuner steveo]

It seems to be decent, but I think the price is too steep. If it were $700, I still probably wouldnt pay that much, but possibly. I wish there were close up pics of the inside.

If you are having serious trouble finding another one, and this one looks good to you, and you can afford it, then I would say go for it, but at least try to negotiate a little....


I have mentioned before...in the days just before ebay, I sold a mint one like this for something like $450... I am STILL kicking myself. And the guy thought it was too much...delivered to him no less.... I almost put it back in my car. I wish I had. He was a pain in the arse and all he did was complain because it wasnt voiced the way he liked it. How was I supposed to guess how he would want it voiced?

[Alan Lenhoff]

I have mentioned before...in the days just before ebay, I sold a mint one like this for something like $450... I am STILL kicking myself. And the guy thought it was too much...delivered to him no less.... I almost put it back in my car. I wish I had. He was a pain in the arse and all he did was complain because it wasnt voiced the way he liked it. How was I supposed to guess how he would want it voiced?

The recession is helping buyers turn back the clock:  A couple of months ago, I bought a near mint Mark I Stage for $500 (actually it's mint now, after I spent $30 replacing some corroded hardware).  Just saw a decent looking Mark II sell near me, with an asking price of $350.  (Heck, the legs and sustain pedal that came with it might have fetched $350 on eBay.)

The bargains are definitely there if you're patient.  (But if you live in a small town, you might have to be willing to drive a couple hours to drive to a city with a bigger inventory.)

Alan

[tylert]

Wow! Since I started looking at these about a year ago, I've never seen one that wasn't a total wreck for $400. On average I'd say the good ones were all in the $800 to $1000 range all over the country.  I'm gonna check it out tomorrow and if I like it I'm gonna talk him down on the price. I'd like to get it for $600 but this guys old school and needs the money so we'll see. I'll be sure to report back after the trip. Thanks again fellas

[bumpyrhode]

First off, it's on it's second listing and my guess is that it will get listed again
if he doesn't drop the price. Go look at it and test it out if you absolutely fall
in love with it then you decide what it's worth to you. If it needs any work
remember to factor that in and remember almost all work on one of these is
a tedious undertaking or costly. Look at Vintage Vibes site for their prices
on services.




 

[tylert]

Yeah it looks like I wont be able to check it out until tomorrow. I didn't realize it was his second post but the last time I played that game someone beat me to it. Its just the way it is around here, not to many around.  I'm already betting on the action needing some work because it hasn't been played regularly in years.  The thing is a lot of people are just realizing how much an old rhodes it worth and wanna get the most for it. The thing thats hard to pass up is that its complete and in great condition cosmetically. Thanks to this site and all the Knowledgable people who frequent it, I'm able to go there a little bit more prepare than I would have. 

On a different topic... what are your thoughts on the New Vintage Vibe Tine Piano?  Has anyone played it yet? anybody order one? Personally I think they are amazing and its my longterm goal to be a proud owner of one. Thats kinda why I'm investing this money so that I don't blow it on useless stuff that wont be worth much in the future.

[bumpyrhode]

How far are you from Providence RI?

http://providence.craigslist.org/msg/2322633514.html

[tylert]

Yeah I saw that one too. I'm waiting for the guy to call me. I'm roughly 2 hours from there so its manageable.

[tylert]

That picture kinda scares me though. If you have a Rhodes in good condition wouldn't you wanna show it off with good photos inside and out?

[Alan Lenhoff]

I wouldn't assume anything from the photo. The "mint" Rhodes I bought recently had nothing but dark pictures on Craigslist, taken from a distance. People tend to post awful photos taken with cell phones.  And lots of Rhodes sellers aren't players (they found them at garage sales, or inherited it from Uncle Wilbur) and don't even know what you might want to see on the inside.

[tylert]

So I was just able to check out the one for $800 yesterday.  As soon as a played one note I knew something was wrong. The action was way too fast and light for a 1973 mark 1. All the keys had been replaced with the mark 2 plastic ones, which felt like a toy. Almost all of the Hammers were not alined with the tines. The overall sound it produced was distorted and muddy. My intuition told me that this Rhodes had been stored in an attic space or someplace with a lot of humidity. This caused the original wooden keys to swell and the plastic hammers to warp. When I told him about this his response was.. "Yeah well A lot of people like the Mark 2 action better".  When I said I couldn't take it he kept dropping the price all the way down to $300. Honestly I'd feel cheated if he gave it to me.

Still waiting to hear back from the Providence guy.

[Alan Lenhoff]

I know it was probably disappointing, but you did a nice job figuring out what was happening with that Franken-Rhodes. A good reminder, too, that no one ought to fall in love with one before you see/play it.

Apparently, the guy carefully chose his words when he told you earlier that the asking price was justified because of its Fender Rhodes "logo." Maybe he didn't actually claim it was a Fender Rhodes model.

With a little luck and patience, I'm sure you'll find a nice one at a reasonable price. There were tons of these built...

Alan

[tylert]

Thanks man. Yeah I'm definitely more prepared for what to expect and this one was a good point of reference.  I suppose it is all about patience.. well patience and scouring over craigslist. The right one will come to me I feel.

[bumpyrhode]

Stuff like this peeves me. The seller wrote

"PLEASE - IF YOUR NOT SERIOUS ABOUT THIS VINTAGE INSTRUMENT - DON'T WASTE MY TIME."

How about him being serious about an accurate description and not wasting the prospective
buyers' time?

[Alan Lenhoff]

From my local Craigslist today, a Rhodes that looks like it's been through a flood or some other form of sadistic torture, with this message from the seller:

"Rhodes itself is in great condition, case is a little beat up. 2 broken tines and a little out of tune. Other than that, works and sounds great!! This is my baby so no low offers please."

Uh, I don't think I'll make ANY offer...

Funny how most every musical instrument that you see on eBay or Craigslist that looks like it's been through a trash compactor still is described as "works and sounds great." 

Alan

[tylert]

Yeah really!  I even suggested he might want to sell it for parts.  I just wish I picked one up in the 90's when schools and Grandma were giving them away. Do any of you use VST's Live? Scarbee, Mr ray.  Although I'm trying to go the organic route, I do like the way they sound.  This is my daily battle. One minute I'm think.. "No I need a Rhodes for the sound, feel, look, and most importantly the inspiration".  But then I speak with someone that completely disagrees with all that and I start think they might be right. Eventually I'd like to have both, but at the moment I can only afford one major purchase. There's just too many people out there thinking just because somethings vintage its gotta be worth a fortune. They don't realize that the ones that are $3000 are totally refurbished. They almost see it as.. "Oh thats what they're worth".  It can be very frustrating when you've been searching for a year and you either just miss one, or they're not what you thought. Sorry I just realized I'm venting a little here.  I value all your opinions and thought I'd pick your brains on that topic. Thanks

[bumpyrhode]

To bad you're not closer to me right now. Found this one about 1/2 hour away.

http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/nva/msg/2331274459.html

[Alan Lenhoff]

One minute I'm think.. "No I need a Rhodes for the sound, feel, look, and most importantly the inspiration".

That's the point to stop thinking.  There is nothing like the real thing.  (You didn't REALLY think people on a Rhodes site would advise otherwise, did you?) 

Regarding your wish to go back in time to get a Rhodes when people were giving them away, in a sense they still are:  The price list on this site indicates that a Stage 73 sold for $720 in 1973.  I plugged that into one of those inflation calculators, and in today's dollars,  that would be the equivalent of $3,500.  And you can buy a nice used one for $500-$800?  Still sounds cheap to me.

Alan

[tylert]

Damn! That one from washington looks pretty nice.  6 hours is a drive though. I knew you guys wouldn't dig the VST option. I Just thought you guys might knock some sense into me.  I know in my heart that I wouldn't be happy with anything else. I bought a Nord a while back and absolutely hated the Rhodes and Wurly patches the first time I played it. I had to trick myself into believing they were good enough because of how expensive they are.  Trying to record it one day I freaked out and instead of smashing it on the ground I decided to sell it. I made all my money back and vowed to get the real deal no matter what, but as time goes on it gets harder and harder to stay true.  There is always the option of saving up a little more to get a refurbished one.

[pianotuner steveo]

Tylert,

what area do you live in? How far are you willing to travel to pick one up?

[tylert]

Sorry I've been working a lot. I live in North west Connecticut. I'd say about 4 hours is the longest I'm willing to drive. I saw that one from Providence and I think that looks pretty good. Thanks so much for thinking of me, this is the best!

[pianotuner steveo]

Look on the Albany,NY CL. There recently was one or two in the $500-$600 range....and that is near me.
There also were a couple that were priced very high....

[tylert]

http://newyork.craigslist.org/stn/msg/2345673487.html

Can you guys let me know if this is a good deal. My only concern is if I'd be able to fix the problem with the pick ups. is that an easy fix or would it have to be looked at by a tech?

[Alan Lenhoff]

Looks like a nice deal for a Rhodes with all the accessories -- although, as you've learned, you've got to see it in person. If the seller is being honest, it sounds like this has only minor issues.

Since the seller says the entire middle register isn't as loud, its unlikely that all those pickups are bad.  So, likely culprits are that someone simply moved the pickups too far back from the tine (you can fix that with a nut driver in minutes) or something is wrong with the pickup wiring (to fix that, you'd need to be able to solder and use a multimeter in basic ways -- people here might be able to coach you through using a meter to solve this).

To deal with the pickup wiring, I'd think any buddy you have who has basic electronics know-how (even if they've never seen a Rhodes before) could handle the task after looking at the service manual (at Fenderrhodes.com), which has the pickup wiring diagram.

Good luck...

Alan

Edit:  Another possibility is that depending on how this Rhodes is wired (it varied over the years) a single dead pickup could cause a section of pickups to fail.  Replacement pickups are readily available.

[tylert]

Thanks, Yeah I'd like to learn how to do it all myself but it would be nice to find some one to coach me the first time around. I waiting for his reply and maybe I check it out this weekend. Thanks again.