Author Topic: Key recap? what do you think?  (Read 5806 times)

Offline Abraham

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Key recap? what do you think?
« on: October 10, 2011, 07:21:35 PM »
My wurlitzer has all the keys seriously yellowed so Im considering a re-cap, what do you guys think? are those generic keycaps same quality standard as originals? is it hard to replace them? May I sand those instead? as they're in good shape, just yellowed

I've read an older post about sanding them but I couldn't find none of the recommended products, nor I know how getting those back shining after sanded...

My rhodes would also benefit of new keycaps since I have two chipped keys... but believe me those wurlie keys are that yellow that I need fixing those before.

(I'm currently unemployed so I have spare time for such a task)
196x Hammond L100
1976 Rhodes MKI '73 Suitcase
1976 Wurlitzer 200-A EP
1981 Casio VL-Tone (Yeah!)
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Offline OZDOC

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Re: Key recap? what do you think?
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2011, 08:34:03 PM »
If you've got the time and the handskills go for the re-cap.
This a standard task for a piano refurbisher or tuner who provides traditional services.
I have plans to do this to my Wurlitzer at some stage.
The only thing holding me up is to find samples of the various colours available - between yellowish and blue-white - to make a colour choice before buying a whole set.
Does anyone know a supplier of key caps who will sell or send colour samples before placing an order?
Co-author, "Classic Keys: Keyboard Sounds That Launched Rock Music"

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Offline Abraham

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Re: Key recap? what do you think?
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2011, 10:03:06 PM »
btw vintage vibe kits seem to be no longer available... any clue on where to buy those kits? are the same key recaps working for both rhodes and wurlitzer pianos?
196x Hammond L100
1976 Rhodes MKI '73 Suitcase
1976 Wurlitzer 200-A EP
1981 Casio VL-Tone (Yeah!)
199x Kawai CX-21D Upright
20xx Clavia Nord Electro 2

Offline OZDOC

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Re: Key recap? what do you think?
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2011, 10:24:44 PM »
Almost any piano tuner in your local region will have a source of supply.
Some of the old guys will immediately know what sized kit you need to use.

Some time ago I started to bookmark links for when I get around to it.
This first link has a catalogue which shows key caps.

Best idea is to contact a parts place such as this one and tell them your model. Or measure the key width, height and length of the piece on the key top and ask them which kit comes closest.
http://www.parkepianostrings.com.au/
http://www.balaams-ass.com/
http://www.piano-tuners.org/piano_parts.html
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Offline pianotuner steveo

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Re: Key recap? what do you think?
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2011, 11:12:17 PM »
 No, no, no, I do NOT recommend recapping if you have never done it before. I am a professional piano tuner, and MOST piano tuners send them out to a factory to have it done by people who have specialized equipment, and do this every day. These shops probably do more sets of keys in a month than most tuners who attempt this ever do in their entire career.

Forum member Alenhoff has a method for cleaning the keys you have. Search the forum for that, or PM him for more info.


The old guys will know what to use? All piano tuners are not old...lol

There are only two colors out there that I know of, bright white and slightly off white. No company sends sampes that I am aware of. Most companies do not sell to non tuners.

Also, generic keytops are wider than wurlitzer keytops, so fitting would be a problem without the special jigs and sanders. The sides of the keys look bad if you attempt to sand by hand.
1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
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Offline OZDOC

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Re: Key recap? what do you think?
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2011, 12:09:39 AM »
Ah - I tend to forget I have access to a lot more machinery than most. And forty years workshop experience.
While this is time consuming it's not particularly difficult. And there are plenty of 'How to' sources available.

Can you post the link to Alenhoff's cleaning technique? I couldn't find it.

I've repolished Pianet keys using 240, 360, 600, 800 wet & dry emery paper followed by Novus polishing compounds. This brought them up like new. But the UV degradation wasn't too great.

I'd love a method of filling cigarette burn holes in black keys? Any thoughts?
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Offline pianotuner steveo

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Re: Key recap? what do you think?
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2011, 08:50:03 AM »
Sorry, I do not know how to post links. you can go to the members list and PM Alenhoff.

Black keytops are far easier to replace than whites, there wouldnt be much filing or sanding involved, if any. I do not know of any product meant for filling in burns.

I never said that replacing keytops is difficult, but it takes a bit of practice for them to look like they were done professionally. My first 2 sets (30 years ago) were horrible. It is easier to install them on acoustic pianos because the keys are larger and there would be less fitting required than on a Wurlitzer,  unless you could find keytops that are made for Wurlitzer EPs somehow.
1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
1968 Gibson G101 Combo organ
1975 Rhodes Piano Bass
1979 Wurlitzer 206A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 270 Butterfly Grand
2004 Hammond XK3
2009 73A Rhodes Mark 7
2009 Korg SV-1 73
2017 Yamaha P255
2020 Kawai CA99
....and a few guitars...

Offline Alan Lenhoff

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Re: Key recap? what do you think?
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2011, 10:20:22 AM »
Cutting and pasting from a post I made in July:

--------------------------------------------------------------
I recently replaced about 20 scratched or gouged key caps on my 200A, mostly with key caps I bought from Steveo.  (Who did me a great favor by removing them from some old keys he had around, which I'm sure was extremely time-consuming.  Thanks Steveo!)  It all worked great -- and I really like that my instrument still has its vintage looks (unlike what it might have looked like if I had installed a set of generic keycaps).

One of the main issues, though, was that the assortment of used Wurli keycaps I used (from at least three pianos) ranged from fairly bright white to a deep, sickly yellow.  I needed a way to make them all white -- and posts on this list that address the subject typically gave advice that doesn't work, or said it can't be done.

I found a method that worked perfectly:  All my keys now are white and matching.  Here's what I did:

I scrubbed them -- really hard -- with 0000 steel wool. It was a lot of work, and some of the keys required multiple passes.  Then, I hand polished them with some automotive rubbing compound (which was labelled safe for clear coat finishes), and then with some Novus 2 plastic polish.  They are now all clean, white, shiny and smooth.

(To tell the truth, I didn't pick those polishing compounds based on some special characteristics of each of them.  I simply used what I had around the house.  But they worked beautifully.)

It was a lot of work.  Having done it, if I ever had to replace a broken keycap, I would be confident I could get any Wurli replacement to color match the rest of my keyboard.  (Of course, I might have to do the steel wool treatment to every key on the piano to make them match.)

One other takeaway from this: Don't do your steel wool work anywhere near your Wurli, since the steel wool residue flies everywhere, and Wurlies don't like dust and debris. I didn't think about that, and when I turned my piano back on, it had an awful, loud, staticy sound.  It took a lot of vacuuming around the reed bar to get it working properly again.

Alan
Co-author, "Classic Keys: Keyboard Sounds That Launched Rock Music"

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1965 UK Vox Continental;1967 Gibson G101 organ; 1954 Hammond B2; Leslie 21H; Leslie 31H; 1974 Rhodes Mark I Stage 73; 1972 Rhodes Sparkletop Piano Bass; 1978 Hohner Clavinet D6; 1968 Hohner Pianet N II; 1966 Wurlitzer 140B; 1980 Moog Minimoog Model D; 1977 Fender Twin Reverb; Vox AC30CC2X amp.
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Offline adcurtin

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Re: Key recap? what do you think?
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2011, 05:30:47 PM »
When I got my wurly, the key caps were rather yellow (I would guess that it's one of the ones Alan used for good keycaps). If your keycaps are just yellow and not scratched or gouged, then I have a better alternative, maybe even the optimal alternative. It's called retr0bright. Here's a link: http://retr0bright.wikispaces.com/Retr0Bright+Gel

Basically a bunch of computer collectors had computers with yellowed cases, and there was no good way to make them their original colors, so they worked together to figure out why they yellowed. Turns out it is because of a flame retardant used in the ABS plastic. Now I know the wurly keycaps aren't ABS, but I tried it anyway. I had a relatively bad mixture, and it took a few applications, but my keys are much more white than they were before. With a better mixture, you could probably get them back to their original white quite easily.

A couple tips:
make sure to use gloves. I didn't at first, but if you get some of the gel on your skin, it turns white, and it can burn quite badly.
Also, make sure you use real blacklights if you go that method. I'd recommend fluorescent, and probably the bigger ones. I got some CFL blacklights from the grocery store, they were just purple and emitted very little UV light. I checked with a $20 bill, which should have a ribbon that glows under blacklight.
I think I ended up applying the gel to all the keys 3 times in total, and letting them sit overnight like that, but the first time I didn't have a very good mixture and I didn't use real blacklights.

Sometime I'll get around to posting pictures. I have kinda put my wurly on hold right now due to electronics problems, and the place I took it to not listening to / working with me, trying to overcharge, changing their (already overpriced) estimate, and being kinda seedy in general.

Offline Abraham

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Re: Key recap? what do you think?
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2011, 06:18:41 PM »
Thanks adcurtin. So you suceed with this "alternative" method... sadly, those materials you used are are quite hard to find around... also the black light would be expensive... I'll wait for your pictures so I can see the results, it is an interesting topic...

Im sorry about your electronics. There's a 206A amp listed on ebay right now, you may find this worth to buy...
196x Hammond L100
1976 Rhodes MKI '73 Suitcase
1976 Wurlitzer 200-A EP
1981 Casio VL-Tone (Yeah!)
199x Kawai CX-21D Upright
20xx Clavia Nord Electro 2

Offline OZDOC

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Re: Key recap? what do you think?
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2011, 06:24:47 PM »
Hi Alan - Thanks for posting your method - it is essentially what I do.
I prefer to use emery paper (Wet & Dry silicon carbide paper) to remove the UV yellowed and scratched layer of plastic.
I use double sided tape to stick emery paper to a small piece of flat wood 100 mm x 50 mm.
This makes sure that you don't alter the shape of the plastic as you sand it by over sanding edges.
I start with 240 grit and gradually work through 320, 400, to 600 or 800 grit. Then I use Novus #2 polish as the final stage.
I use the emery paper wet when working on all plastic keys. But if they are wooden keys you either need to work upside down - for example stick a whole sheet of emery paper to a flat board and rub the key surface on it face down - or hold the key face vertical so that water drips away from the wood as you sand.
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Offline Abraham

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Re: Key recap? what do you think?
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2011, 06:28:57 PM »
so you do al the rubbing manually?
196x Hammond L100
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Offline OZDOC

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Re: Key recap? what do you think?
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2011, 07:11:06 PM »
Yes - it is very time consuming. This is where the trade-off comes in.
If money is no object you pay somebody to recap all your keys or buy a Wurlie that doesn't need it done.
If time is no object - you make an assessment of the how scratched and damaged and yellowed the keys are.
Try re-polishing one just doing the Novus #2 polish stage. If the result makes you happy then this will be the quickest way.
If you only need to do 600 grit emery followed by Novus #2 to get the result then only do this.
If every key needs to be sanded through all the grit levels to get them into a neat, unscratched state then key recapping is probably justified.
David
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Offline Alan Lenhoff

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Re: Key recap? what do you think?
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2011, 09:06:47 PM »
Hi Alan - Thanks for posting your method - it is essentially what I do.
I prefer to use emery paper (Wet & Dry silicon carbide paper) to remove the UV yellowed and scratched layer of plastic.
I use double sided tape to stick emery paper to a small piece of flat wood 100 mm x 50 mm.
This makes sure that you don't alter the shape of the plastic as you sand it by over sanding edges.
I start with 240 grit and gradually work through 320, 400, to 600 or 800 grit.

Your method uses more abrasive materials than mine.  The 0000 steel wool I used is not nearly abrasive enough to alter the shape of the keys.  It's also not abrasive enough to take out scratches except the most superficial ones.

So, using steel wool is a much safer method to simply remove the yellowed surface -- it's really hard to mess anything up.  But if you're also trying to repair scratches and chips, your only chance is to use a more abrasive  method.  My best advice is to use the least abrasive treatment that gets the job done.

Alan
« Last Edit: October 11, 2011, 09:12:51 PM by alenhoff »
Co-author, "Classic Keys: Keyboard Sounds That Launched Rock Music"

Learn about the book: http://www.classickeysbook.com/
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1965 UK Vox Continental;1967 Gibson G101 organ; 1954 Hammond B2; Leslie 21H; Leslie 31H; 1974 Rhodes Mark I Stage 73; 1972 Rhodes Sparkletop Piano Bass; 1978 Hohner Clavinet D6; 1968 Hohner Pianet N II; 1966 Wurlitzer 140B; 1980 Moog Minimoog Model D; 1977 Fender Twin Reverb; Vox AC30CC2X amp.
(See the collection: https://vintagerockkeyboards.com/ )

Offline guizmo

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Re: Key recap? what do you think?
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2018, 01:21:09 PM »
Hello guys !

I post here because the last step on my wurli's restoration is the keys.
They are a bit yellowed but not too much, and there are some scratches, 2 burn spots and 2 key edges are a bit broken.

So, I want to whiten the keys and fix the broken or burned parts.

I've done some researches and here's my conclusions :

### For the color

- I don't want to recap the keys, I want to keep it all original if possible, and 59/64 are perfect.
- I want to do a retr0bright, because I'll not have to sand the keys : I've sanded my rhodes keys and it's time consuming, it's difficult to have the keys very flat... but it works, see on attachement.

### For the scratches/holes/burn spots

I've seen this video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZGuwlpmNL4 and the guy is using a kind of resin, it's exactly what I need, do you know what is it ?

### Polishing

I'd like to polish the keys to erase the micro-scratches and make the keys shine...
I'd like to know, the rotating speed and the paste color...

Thank you ;)

Offline jam88

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Re: Key recap? what do you think?
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2018, 07:53:55 PM »
The page in adcurtain's link seems to have expired, but there is an instructive Wikipedia page at:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retr0bright   

The last Wurly I did, I brightened the keys using what I had around the house. First by rubbing the keys longwise with a paste of Zud on a piece of old terrycloth towel. This whitened them and really got the crud off, without really removing material. (If you haven't used it, Zud is a scouring cleaner with fine abrasive and oxalic acid.) Then I polished them using DuPont White Polishing Compound.

Question: Does anyone have an foolproof way to remove the finger stains from the bare wood on the sides of the keys?

I totally agree with steveo about replacing keytops. I replaced keytops on a piano back in the 70's, and vowed I'd never do it again.
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Offline guizmo

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Re: Key recap? what do you think?
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2018, 04:56:39 AM »
THank you Jam !

I’ve seen the retr0bright wiki page and a ton of YouTube video. (I suggest this YouTube channel : 8-Bit Guy, you surely know him, he’s a vintage computer and console collector, and this guy has a ton of techniques and tips to repair, clean, retrobrights...).
I have all the stuff to do it, I’m just waiting for a power sun.
I’ll use the polishing technique but only to make the keys shine.

What I understand is that there is not a miracle process, many polish products works ? As you used products you had in your house.

I asked the guy from the YouTube video I posted and he replies me! The « resin » he used is AcryliKey, and he told me that is sold only to professionals.. Have you guys already used it?

Offline Tim Hodges

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Re: Key recap? what do you think?
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2018, 05:21:46 AM »
I've seen a fair few number of people whiten their synth keys using retrobright and a UV lamp (or just left outside in the sun for a day)

It mentions in that Wiki page:

Quote
Hydrogen peroxide-based hair bleaching creams available at beauty supply stores can also be used as a ready-made mix.

Certain beauty salon products that are primarily composed of hydrogen peroxide can also be used as an alternative to Retr0bright, as it has been discovered to be almost identical in effect, and already "creamy" so that it can be applied less wastefully to yellowed plastics (especially large devices such as computer panels or monitors). This eliminates the difficulty of having to put together a batch directly from the instructions.

When I come across a set of yellowed keys I'm going to give it a go.
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Offline guizmo

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Re: Key recap? what do you think?
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2018, 05:28:40 AM »
Ive already bought this hydrogène peroxyde cream on beauty store, and I’ll try the process this week if it’s sunny. I’ll try on a old Roland MC500 sequencer that is very yellow first! I’ll post some pictures.

Offline Electrickey

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Re: Key recap? what do you think?
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2018, 11:20:33 AM »
I like the yellow "aged" look as that is what happens with real ivory keys. They yellow with age.

I like the feel of the original Wurli keys as well.

I would in the effort to the keep the piano stock, keep the original keys.

You know some can sense the feel of keys as a inspiration or a detriment.

Reason Roland's mini grand has the ivory grain style keys to bring back that feel.



As far as using chemicals, I tend to be leery of adding them to the keys which may make the plastic disintegrate over time.

Plain water seems like a safer approach.

« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 11:24:34 AM by Electrickey »

Offline guizmo

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Re: Key recap? what do you think?
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2018, 12:52:47 PM »
Sure, I’ll keep the keys original.
Retrobright is not like changing the keytops, it’s just stop and reverse the normal reaction that happens with plastic and UVs.
There is no sanding, so the feeling stays the same. I’ll just polish the keys to make them shine, but they will have the exact same shape, dimensions, defaults because they are the original keys.

Offline Electrickey

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Re: Key recap? what do you think?
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2018, 01:07:54 PM »
Sure, I’ll keep the keys original.
Retrobright is not like changing the keytops, it’s just stop and reverse the normal reaction that happens with plastic and UVs.
There is no sanding, so the feeling stays the same. I’ll just polish the keys to make them shine, but they will have the exact same shape, dimensions, defaults because they are the original keys.

There are reports of Retrobright weakening some plastics...

Offline guizmo

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Re: Key recap? what do you think?
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2018, 01:42:03 PM »
Yes if the time of exposition is too long. that’s why I gonna test on a old Roland sequencer, and I’ll check regularly to be sure that it doesn’t damage the plastic...
Have you tried the retrobright process ?

Offline Electrickey

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Re: Key recap? what do you think?
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2018, 01:53:07 PM »
Have you tried the retrobright process ?

No, as I mention I stick to plain water. I'm more concerned with the structural integrity of the keys than the looks. If there was something that didn't alter the plastic, sure I would try it.

I did try Simichrome once but only once and went back to plain water and a soft rag.

I know Yamaha gives out silicone polishing rags with their pianos.

Remember when Armour All came out. People were putting it on everything, until steering wheel and dashboard plastics started to crack.

I was told by my piano tech to use plain water on keys.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 03:22:20 PM by Electrickey »

Offline Tim Hodges

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« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 07:59:37 AM by Tim Hodges »
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Offline guizmo

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Re: Key recap? what do you think?
« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2018, 08:42:54 AM »
Cool !! thanks Tim !!!
I made a lot of research about retr0bright process but I haven't found this post !! It's very interesting and it's about a keyboard (and more than a keyboard, a J8!!!), not about consoles or computers like usually...

I'm now making a test with one button of my old Roland MC 500 and a fish tank light (there's no sun in france  >:( ) ! I'll post my conclusions !


Offline guizmo

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Re: Key recap? what do you think?
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2018, 03:40:04 PM »
The MC500 button passed 9h under the fish tank light and the result is impressive!
It's a bit yellow so I put new coat and I let it there for the night, but I'm very happy, it works well and it's a very easy task.
I'll post tomorrow for the conclusions!

I wanted to wait the spring but it seems to work well with the fish tank light, so I think I gonna buy a UV lamp, and try it as soon as possible on the entire Roland MC500 and next (if it works well), on the wurli keys. So, I have to find a solution to repair the scratches on the keys. On attachement, the 3 spots that I have to restore.

I told you about acrylikey, it seems to be the best solution but it costs $150 and I only have 3 spots, I'm not a professional, so I'll not need a big quantity...

Do you know an alternative for this work?

I saw a video on youtube and the guy use baking soda + superglue to repair a guitar nut : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slCMkvEfK_U
Do you think it could be a solution ?

Thanks!

G
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 03:44:46 PM by guizmo »

Offline guizmo

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Re: Key recap? what do you think?
« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2018, 04:11:52 PM »
Hi,

I made a new topic to explain and show how the retrobright process works : https://ep-forum.com/smf/index.php?topic=9787.msg54317#msg54317