Vintage Vibe Variable Vibrato

[Electroharmony]

This looks insanely awesome.  I know Ken Rich has something similar but I think that requires drilling an extra hole in your top, and changing the faceplate.    Anyone have any idea on the release date?  I have emailed VV, but not heard back regarding this.  I know the owners float around these forums sometimes, so any updates would be great!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hII1ShCFs-0

[Ben Bove]

Originally Ken Rich and Tim Warneck developed the variable vibrato for the Wulirtzer Piano over 3 years ago.  Being an owner of one of the first Variable Wurlys, I find the product to be unbelivably stable with no problems whatsoever.  As far as the 3rd knob is concerned, it really isn't a concern.  You can easily take a 2-knob facepate and cover over the 3rd knob position if you wanted to.  Although I think the 3rd knob looks great and is very easy to grab on the go and operate.

[Fred]

Our product is a completely new design intended to preserve the piano's original aesthetic. I have played it, and love the flexibility of tone and vibrato it provides, but I'll leave it to Chris to answer your inquiry on availability. As I am currently out of the country, I have sent him an email. I understand much of New Jersey may still be without power due to the snow storm, so it make take him a few days to get to all his messages. Stay tuned!! Oh, and Ben's reply should be flagged as spam 

[Ben Bove]

Aww cmon!

[Electrickey]

I'm waiting for word on the tube pre set up. 

[Chris Carroll]

Hey everyone,

Thanks for asking , yes our power is still out, so I am replying from my phone. The vintage vibe variable vibrato was developed years and years ago.
   Our design which was desined in house at vintage  vibe is the correct way to make it without question, we use two concentric pots with custom made knobs that have the same original look as the originals. There is no need for any odd third hole or knob. We also have designed ours to come with a tube pre amp or solid state, your choice. Our design also has a bass cut and a half time tremolo push switch. Fred came up with the bass cut due to the boomy bass end  of a Wurlitzer. This helps greatly cut any mix as well as offer tonal sculpting not found anywhere else. Vintage vibe has been manufacturing classic amps and pre amps for almost 10 years now. You can always expect the best and most innovative products at the fairest prices. We have three brand new amps coming out next week check out our website for the releases. Oh and will never use chips in our tone signal path like
others have used. They sound sterile! Please check out our videos with our tube variable vibrato and see for yourself the look and tone is unequalled.
Ps

[keyscrazy]

I find it interesting that this Forum has allowed a clearly disparaging comment remain posted.

I am new to this Forum but surely it is plainly clear that when you say...

Oh and will never use chips in our tone signal path like others have used. They sound sterile!

...that you are referring directly to the board designed by Warneck Research and sold by them and Ken Rich Sound Services.

Not only that but I hope the discerning people at this keyboard forum would require more than a YouTube video as proof of something being "of unequalled look and tone" and that they would see that you state opinion as fact when you say you have "the correct way to make it without question."

I've watched your video and saw just one thing which was enough for me to make my decision on the quality of the product. Follow this link and watch the nob at 1:28;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=hII1ShCFs-0#t=85s

Sure, it's just a loose nob. But to me it's an indication of Vintage Vibe's attention to detail. In my experience and opinion you can't appreciate the nuances of what makes vintage tone good without an incredible attention to detail.

Now at this point I guess my post will be flagged due seeming to be "flaming", or whatever they say, but why is it any more right to make such a clear implication which is based purely on opinion when I am merely stating facts in my post. I've not made claims that are anything but very even handed opinion or plain fact.

So talking about opinion, when looking to buy a variable vibrato board and amp board for Wurlitzer 200 I came across a post on this forum that introduced me to Warneck Research and Ken Rich Sound Services and I was very impressed with what I found. To me it seemed like an industry secret waiting to be found out. I watched many YouTube videos and the listings for the products on option and what I found was opinions by many artists I respect that they really liked the board made by Warneck Research that, by way of having a chip in its tone signal path, must according to you be sterile. Well, I bought that one, and their vibrato board, and have been extremely pleased with it's quality, it's quietness and, furthermore, was blown away by how easy it all was to install.

Yes, I myself, and many others, have been witness to terrible sounding digital processing, but surely you can admit that the advances in this area are quite incredible and many artists that were once so against digital options now go to SOME of them happily due to the quality of SOME digital products.

So I feel it very wrong that you should be implying that the Warneck Research board, or any board containing a chip, is in any way sterile and not made in the best way possible. I may be English - now I'm disparaging the English!  -  but I'm experienced enough with Wurlitzer tone to know if something is sterile and these boards are not. Certainly, I've only had positive reports from all the clients that have come and used it here at my UK studio.

So if you are able to state your opinion, then I should also be able to, and bjammerz should also be allowed to, despite Fred making a very empty claim that bjammerz post should be flagged.

So before you flag my post moderator, I ask if this forum is moderated even-handedly or if it is simply a forum for Vintage Vibe to make whatever claims, and disparaging comments, they like - as long as they are thinly veiled enough.

Not to mention poor master Ken Rich who doesn't seem to have the time, inclination or know-how to defend himself in this cyber-based arena.

Lastly, I want to make very clear that neither Warneck Research or Ken Rich Sound Services have any knowledge of this post. They probably won't even see it as they don't troll around this site like others have done. Of course, I'm not mentioning anyone specific....

[Cormac Long]

To be honest, I personally viewed the posts in this thread as honest opinions and the spam comment by Fred was meant and indeed taken in a light-hearted way.

As far as I am concerned this thread has also given ample representation of the Warneck board. Reps of Warneck and Ken Rich are more than welcome to contribute on this forum if they like. We do not operate any bias in this regard.

You may disagree with the opinions of IC-based versus transistor circuits and please feel free to express your opinion and experiences on this. But as far as conduct is concerned, please keep things cordial on this forum.

[pianotuner steveo]

Keyscrazy..

I do not think that anyone intentionally meant to knock anyone's specific product. A lot of people, including myself, generaly do not like the sound of amps and preamps that use IC's instead of either transistors or tubes. It sounded to me that Chris was just pointing out another difference in his version.
To me, IC amps DO sound sterile, I agree with Chris,but when I say that, I am not picking on anyone else's product, it is just my opinion, and everyone here (and everywhere)  is allowed to like or dislike different products.
Some people prefer different brands of keyboards over others, but that does not mean that they are picking on the brands that they like less when they praise the brands they prefer.


Please keep in mind that I have no experience with either of the specific products mentioned here, I have no bias one way or the other.My experience in IC's vs. Transistors or tubes comes from instrument amps, and from home audio equipment. Some of my home stereo equipment is 40 years old because I prefer the sound.


Also, Fred's comment about Bjammerz was clearly meant as a joke,as Cormac said........

[Chris Carroll]

Wow, It's cool- I am glad you got to express your opinions, that's what this forum is for. I for one, think it was a little over the top, but hey what ever gets you excited. I know for a fact Fred has much respect for Ben as a well informed and well studied technician and player. So his comment was purely in jest.  I have respect for anyone who does their own product, i just happen to strongly believe that our product is a strong candidate for anyone looking for this type of affect. I do not believe for a second that our product has to be better or is "the one to have"  I am just very proud of what we have to offer. I am proud of Vintage Vibe and the products we offer. In regards to attention to detail on our products, the knob you were speaking of was a prototype and our knobs have been tightened up since then.  If that was all you noticed about the detail of our product, there is other points you sorely missed.  It's obvious you do not like us and that is ok, we do our best 100 % of the time, but you can never make everyone happy. This I have learned in business and this also helps to keep me sane.  Anyway, I really prefer to let our custumers experience do the talking of our products and services.  Have a great day !

Chris/ Vintage Vibe

[Rob A]

ep-forum.com is a community.

One thing about that is that people will occasionally disagree, and that's fine. Moderation isn't there to protect members from each other, it's to protect the community from any members that get out of hand.

This community is actually really healthy and there's very minimal moderation occurring.

So before you flag my post moderator, I ask if this forum is moderated even-handedly or if it is simply a forum for Vintage Vibe to make whatever claims, and disparaging comments, they like - as long as they are thinly veiled enough.

Vendors are a part of the community too. If anyone, including vendors, posts in a way that seems harmful to the community, then moderation is our recourse to keep things working for everyone. I hope that clears up that point.

In many forums, posts regarding moderator activities are not allowed. this is not one of those communities.

[keyscrazy]

Firstly, let me thank the moderators for allowing my post to remain up so this issue can be discussed. Secondly, to Fred, yes your comment had a wink after it and was meant to be a joke.

To Chris, and to all those who have said they don't believe he was referring to any specific product, I point to these quotes.

   Our design which was desined in house at vintage  vibe is the correct way to make it without question, we use two concentric pots with custom made knobs that have the same original look as the originals. There is no need for any odd third hole or knob.

Do you truly believe he is not referring directly to the Warneck Research Variable Vibrato unit?

And furthermore, I don't believe that this statement, from Chris's follow up post...

I do not believe for a second that our product has to be better or is "the one to have"  I am just very proud of what we have to offer.

...could be seen as anything but a back-pedal from his statement in his original post, that their way is "the correct way to make it without question".

Chris - hearing people state untruths about a competitors product does get me worked up, particularly when it isn't being stated as opinion.

  Oh and will never use chips in our tone signal path like  others have used. They sound sterile!

I don't believe you can be defending this statement as opinion. "I think they sound sterile." That is opinion. Your post was definitely referring to the Warneck Research board, as my earlier quoted passage "There is no need for any odd third hole or knob" shows. So I think those defending you by saying "I don't think he was referring to anyone specific" should take a closer look at your post.

With the video - I understand it was a prototype but would it not have been very easy to tighten the knobs before making the video? And yes, I did notice more things than just the knob but my post was already quite long enough, and listing more things would've simply been petty. I wanted to make you sit up and pay attention and you did.

I am not going to continue with anymore rebuttals to what you've said in your e-mail Chris. I do feel though that you should admit to having been referring directly to the Warneck Research board. Being proud of your own work does not give you a right to state untruths about the products of a competitor.

I agree with pianotuner steveo that there are many sterile sounding products which utilize IC. I have always been very wary of these also, but I'm glad I looked past this experience and bought the Warneck Research amp board and variable vibrato unit as I've had nothing but positive reports from my studio customers.

Again - thank-you to the forum for allowing me to state my opinion. I hope I've been more cordial on this occasion. I just don't believe anyone should be free from scrutiny here. Particularly those who have a financial interest in what they're stating.

[Electroharmony]

Wow, sorry to start such a ruckus!!  I hope everyone realizes I am not affiliated with either of the companies offering a Variable Vib for the wurli...  Most people frequenting this board have bought products from one or both of these vendors, and I think it goes without saying that the quality of goods offered are second-to-none by both companies. 

That being said I am sure that the KR/Warneck unit is an excellent sounding and performing product.  For me, from a practical standpoint, it seems easier to just install a new amp/preamp than to swap a faceplate and drill a new hole in my wurli top.  Although depending on the price-point of the VV unit, it still may be a viable option.  Which brings me back to the first question of a time frame when it will be released?   I see it is now shown on the website, but no mention of availability.   I'm hoping a few weeks??

Thanks!!

[Rob A]

   Our design which was desined in house at vintage  vibe is the correct way to make it without question, we use two concentric pots with custom made knobs that have the same original look as the originals. There is no need for any odd third hole or knob.

Do you truly believe he is not referring directly to the Warneck Research Variable Vibrato unit?

Well, without making it an issue of belief, he makes no statement whatsoever about any product other than his own.

  Oh and will never use chips in our tone signal path like  others have used. They sound sterile!

I don't believe you can be defending this statement as opinion. "I think they sound sterile." That is opinion. Your post was definitely referring to the Warneck Research board, as my earlier quoted passage "There is no need for any odd third hole or knob" shows. So I think those defending you by saying "I don't think he was referring to anyone specific" should take a closer look at your post.

I absolutely took a closer look (with a moderator hat on) the first time you raised the point. And as above, no statements about other vendors' products are to be found. Plain and simple, he's not slagging off the competition. He's talking about his own products.

I don't think we are gaining a lot of insight by dissecting peoples' posts though. I'd prefer to return to discussing the equipment itself. That's the purpose of the forum.

[Chris Carroll]

Well again, thank you for taking much of your valuable time to read into my post. I think it has shed much light on this topic. My personal attention and intention is for peace and harmony among the world. If I have offended you or said retailers or designer I am sorry.  My view is compassion and love for the world and this includes this forum. No one ever gets ahead with anger or ill will toward anyone. I will not participate in words that divide or create hurt feelings.  No one is perfect, we are all human and we strive to be at our best. When we are divisive we are at our worst. When we brag and boast and feel the need to be the best above others we are covering up inadequacies and knowing I have done this in the past myself keeps me striving for a pure nature. 
I have made it a point of Vintage Vibe to offer as much free information for people as we can, to be there when customers call with info needed, it's all part of Vintage Vibe's belief in giving as opposed to taking. The roots to our generosity are deep but in my opinion can be much stronger. Finding happiness in ones life comes down to knowing yourself truly, self realization, letting go and allowing life to be-
Having compassion, instead of anger, understanding instead of intolerance, love instead of hate, honor instead of pride, giving instead of selfishness.
feling the need to be right and prove others wrong is not a virtue; it will only make us unhappy inside. No one ever really wins an argument, there ends up being two people who suffer. Remember FOOLS ARGUE AND WISE MEN DISCUSS-

I would like to finish with a thought about perception- Perception is how the individual see the reality- True reality is often something very different than what we see. Our experience only goes as far as our perception- But what lies beyond is the reality.
We are here to help and serve, we are also here to support the 6 fulltime and 2 part time employees who work here. All of the guys who work at Vintage Vibe are here for a reason and that is because they are experts at what they do. I would not have any of them here if they were not the most pure of heart, it is at the core what we strive as people and a company to be.

Let's turn the page and see where it will take us -

Peace and happiness to all-

[Electroharmony]

so uhhh..... any word on a solid release date?

[Fred]

The Vintage Vibe Variable Vibrato is available for order. Please call the shop for details...

  (973)-989-2178

[keyscrazy]

Rob A - does not "There is no need for any odd third hole or knob" refer to the Warneck Research product? I have no problem being disagreed with if someone has a strong defense, but I still don't see that you can defend Chris's words as not referring to a competitors product. Chris still hasn't admitted as much in an outward manner but he's sensible enough to not continue offering a weak defense. I simply ask that someone be willing to admit he was referring to a competitors product, as I am surely not the only one who felt the implication was quite clear. 

I accept that this forum should be focused on the discussion of products, not individuals, but I do believe that Chris is a personal representation of his products on this forum, which is the reason for putting forward this discussion. I understand your preference for keeping things harmonious. I just don't believe harmony should be prioritized over open discussion and fair criticism, particularly when someone has a financial stake in what is being said on the forum.

I appreciate the time and platform allowed to me to state the points I have. I do confess that I have a bent for pointing out people's inconsistencies and self-contradictions.

I do realize this discussion is due for termination though. And despite your CAPITALIZED comment Chris, I don't believe I ever put forward anything except a discussion, rather than an "argument". I don't profess to be a "wise man" but I am not a fool. It seems you read my tone with a lot more anger than it's being written at my end. Certainly, "reality" can be a sketchy issue due to individuals perception, hence the need for discussion.

Seeing you've moved this to be a very philosophical discussion about peace, happiness and personal growth, which has included a number of perspectives I very much agree with, I'm going to make one final point in support of your stated perspectives.

You wrote in your last entry;

When we brag and boast and feel the need to be the best above others we are covering up inadequacies and knowing I have done this in the past myself keeps me striving for a pure nature.

A very true statement. Certainly no person is perfect and striving for self-improvement, which every individual should, is a process that involves discussions like these. Another crucial part of this process is the willingness to receive criticism graciously, even when you see it as unwarranted, and a willingness to give criticism, preferably in a constructive manner, rather than destructive manner, as I have at times in my recent posts.

I don't know anything about your past, and all I know about your present is the Vintage Vibe website and what I see in this forum. So I'll point to something from the present;

http://www.vintagevibe.com/p-24-wurlitzer-electric-piano-sustain-pedal.aspx

I specifically refer to the line "Our hand crafted replica of the original Wurlitzer sustain pedal is the finest pedal made on our planet."

This to me is an example of bragging and boasting and needing to "be the best above others". You may rebut my point by claiming this to be a tongue-in-cheek comment, but similar comments are made in reference to many products on your site. I doubt you would want to apply your own statement to this example, but to me to do so would have some merit.

So I simply ask that you continue to put effort into the pursuit of all the fine philosophical points you made in your previous post. 

I will endeavor to keep all future posting more harmonious.

Thanks to all in this forum for the opportunity to express my opinion.

Good day,

Karl

[Chris Carroll]

Hey Everyone-

You were asking about the amps- so here they are-

http://www.vintagevibe.com/p-792-vintage-vibe-variable-vibrato-wurlitzer-amplifier.aspx

If anyone has any particular questions in regards to the pre amps, I will be more than glad to speak with you about them- Right now i am shuffling off to Cleveland for a few days of rest. I will be back next week.

We also have a brand new 200 and 200A amplifier you can see- We are very happy with them- 

all the best, Chris

[Rob A]

Karl,

Having a financial interest doesn't disqualify anyone from these discussions.

[Tim W]

All,

It seems that the non-technical aspects of this topic have now been fully explored... and I think we can give it a rest.

As the designer of the Warneck Research products, I would like to have a chance to discuss some of the technical aspects of our design methodology.

One thing I have noticed is that there seems to be an inherent bias in the music world against ICs.  As a designer of circuits using ICs and an IC designer myself, I personally feel this prejudice is not justifiable. 

Tons of beloved classic effects pedals (Mutron, MXR, EH) and analog synths (Sequential Circuits, Oberheim, etc.)  are completely loaded with ICs, and I doubt anyone here would say that they sound sterile.  People spend a lot of money on BBD IC based analog delays... because they sound so 'warm' and 'organic.'  High end companies like Neve put ICs in many of their designs that people go crazy over.  Many of the finest, well-respected mixing consoles have IC based VCAs and other circuits in them.  Now, a company named Strymon is making DSP chip based digital effects pedals that are simply breathtaking- and taking the guitar world by storm.  And we all know guitarists are generally far more critical than keyboard players in searching for that elusive thing called tone.

Early on, when ICs were first being introduced, they indeed had shortcomings.  Companies were anxious to be on the cutting edge, and used them in their designs perhaps a bit prematurely... sacrificing sound quality and reliability.  Early analog ICs, while groundbreaking at the time, were sluggish, noisy, and terrible for audio.  Many big audio companies, even today, still manufacture most consumer and 'prosumer' equipment with the same low-performance ICs that were being used in the 70s and early 80s.  This helps continue the perception among many that ICs can't and don't sound good.

If one opens a DigiKey or Mouser catalog, there are a staggering number of opamps and other analog ICs available.  In order to design a high performance audio circuit, one must know what to look for among these thousands of parts.  Each of them has different specs for different purposes in a circuit design, and the right parts need to be selected for the right job.  Calculations need to be run, measurements need to be taken.  Questions need to be answered regarding noise levels, offsets, slew rates, THD, bandwidth, input stage technology (FET or BJT) and several other specs.  Once this space is defined, one can select the appropriate part and match it to the application, yielding the desired result.  The math and physics never lie.

All of our products are designed in this way- each critical component is selected for the application after calculations and measurements, and the circuit then built around it.  Circuit simulations are run using SPICE to check that noise, frequency response, and transient response of the circuit is as desired.  Calculations are also run to make sure that all components are operating within their safe operating area (SOA) to ensure years of trouble-free performance.  Our designs are not copies of the original Wurlitzer circuits with a few enhancements nor copies of other circuits from elsewhere rearranged or reorganized in a new way... but original and well-engineered from the ground up.

As for the Wurlitzer EPs, the original 200 amp design was a disaster.  The circuit architecture was not optimized for the application and it was very inefficient.  If it was so great, why would Wurlitzer continue to revise it and then eventually abandon it in favor of the 200A design?  The 200A design was much better from a circuit design and architecture standpoint but still had its own share of problems (noise and reliability) due to the separate preamp board and all of the messy wiring and connectors that ran between everything in the piano.  It had other shortcomings too... in fact, both original 200 and 200A designs have elements in them that are dependent on poorly controlled transistor characteristics that drift with time and temperature, hence the need to hand select resistors and transistors for each board on the production line.  These devices continue to drift as they age, resulting in problems like cross-over distortion or runaway output stages that blow fuses.  Even if one was to fully rebuild (or reconstruct) an original 200 or 200A board with all new higher performance components, the same problems and deficiencies would continue to pop up for years to come because of the inherent architecture of those circuits.

There are plenty of examples of terrible tube, transistor, and IC based circuits.  Likewise, there are all excellent examples of each.  The same goes for an instrument like an acoustic guitar.  They are all pretty much built out of wood and strings, but the kind of wood and the attention to design and craftsmanship can yield drastically different results. 

I am certain that if our products were not high-end performers they would not have the endorsement of Ken Rich or any of the artists that use them.  Being a vintage enthusiast, Ken himself was highly skeptical of the IC based design when I first made contact with him to get feedback on the beta unit.  Once he heard it and had me tweak the EQ a little bit, he fell in love with the 200 all over again.

Best regards,
Tim Warneck
Retrolinear Inc. 

[pianotuner steveo]

I just want to clarify that I only stated that I personally do not like the sound from IC based AMPLIFIERS.

Obviously digital keyboard sounds and effects (including modern pedals) are generated by ICs.

I said nothing pro or con about either product mentioned in this thread.

[sean]

Great post Tim!  Thanks.  Keep the great designs coming!

Sean

[Electrickey]

Its great for all that we have minds that have addressed our beloved pianos with parts and alternative amplification. It is also noteworthy that any feedback to these parts and designs from a player's standpoint be weighed as well, to help designers come up with improved products.

[Synthetik]

I could share a couple things that would contradict Chris C's path to enlightenment, but I won't. The Warneck Research unit is nice. Ken wouldn't be selling them if they weren't.

[SlowMonroe]

I like the style of the separate speed knob better. The mount is good quality too.