Hammer Travel/Playing Dynamics Issue -- How to solve?

[mattjhuber]

Okay -- So I have a Rhodes 73 Mark I, made in '72.

When I play it, it seems that I have to hit the keys unusually hard to get them to sound, therefore making dynamic playing pretty difficult. Escapement adjustments all seem right, and if I lower the tone bars/tines, it doesn't really solve it effectively. It seems to be a hammer travel issue I suppose...it is like either the harp is just sitting a little to high or the hammers are all sitting to low.


I noticed on my Rhodes 88 from '74 that the support block on which the harp rests has black rubber shims, allowing for adjustment of the height of the harp...my 73 does not have this.

Any ideas?

I saw here that you can adjust key dip/hammer travel by shimming up the action rail, but didn't know if that was the best course of action.

http://www.fenderrhodes.com/org/manual/ch10.html#10-1

[mattjhuber]

Or should I plane the harp support blocks down and shim to taste like the 88?

[pianotuner steveo]

 It sounds like your key dip may be too shallow. I would NOT plane down the harp supports unless they are home made replacements for some reason and were made incorrectly. ( Highly unlikely) that would not solve the problem anyway. EDIT: (I meant to say MIGHT not solve the prolem...)

Regulate key height & dip first. Then hammer stroke distance ( hammer tips to bottom of tines at rest) then, set escapement assuming your voicing is ok. Make minor adjustments on each key to suit your taste.

[spradders]

I think we discussed this somewhere else on here... Are the dynamics any better with the sustain pedal down?  I have to play my lowest octaves a bit hard because the damper arms aren't bent correctly, so there is increased force required to shift the damper and hence the hammer is restricted.

Worth a quick test.

Mike.

[Ben Bove]

I would agree, in my experience I haven't had to plane down the harp support blocks.  It would lead me to believe an adjustment is out of place somewhere else.

The key for escapement - in the bass section, if you play softly do the notes trigger and play?  Or when you play softly you can't get the hammers to hit the tines?  If you're noticing you can't get any sound out of the bass register when playing "relatively" softly, then it's an escapement issue and it's too high.  You can also research about measuring escapement too which is searchable on the forum here.

Also agree with above - with the sustain pedal depressed, do you get better dynamics?  Basically look inside while playing the bass register, and see when you hit a note if the tine is knocking the damper felt around.  Should be easy to see if the felt is getting hit, it vibrates pretty heavily on attack.  Try this vs. holding down the pedal and see if that improves.  You'd have to then adjust the damper arms by bending the felts further away from the tines. 

The other point which I can never stress enough is the strikeline - the smallest movement of the harp forward or backward can literally transform the dynamics of the piano - there's one sweet spot and any deviation from that greatly affects bark.

[mattjhuber]

So the dynamics are in fact a bit better with the sustain pedal depressed...but it the tine is not hitting the dampers at all. When the sustain pedal is depressed, it seems like the hammer has a bit more "bounce" to it, allowing it to actually reach the tine. In general, it seems like the issue lies in the hammers not being effectively pushed past their "key-depressed-resting-point" if you will.

I played around with balance rail felts to see if the issue is there, and that didn't seem to impact it at all.

Thoughts?

Thanks a million!

[mattjhuber]

In terms of escapement -- bass is currently around 1/2 inch...I can lower it to a little over 3/16 if I really crank it down. I can't seem to lower escapement enough to "solve" this issue.

[Ben Bove]

When you play softly, can you still trigger notes?


Also, you might want to look at your pickup distance.  The majority of dynamics can come from how close your pickups are to the tine.  I actually prefer to have them closer than factory spec, and find I can get a better dynamic response.

[mattjhuber]

No -- notes don't trigger. The hammer never reaches the tine.

[mattjhuber]

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

[spradders]

Hi Matt - it sounds like you have the same problem as me.  I made mine a bit better by bending the damper arms, but it's still not quite right.  I need to remove the sets of dampers and have another go at it.  I'll let you know if / when I fix it :-)

[David Aubke]

When I felt I couldn't get the bass escapement low enough on a 1973, I used a table saw to remove nearly an 1/8" from the top of the harp support. I was happy with the results.

[mattjhuber]

Thanks dave -- I'm tempted to do just that. I feel like I've exhausted pretty much every option...I've been thinking through the mechanics of the Rhodes for days, thinking maybe I've missed something...hmmm...

Worst case scenario, I cut down the support block by 1/8 inch...it doesn't help, and I shim it up 1/8 inch.

...or maybe it will fix it...

I'll keep you guys posted. Thanks!

[mattjhuber]

It sounds like your key dip may be too shallow. I would NOT plane down the harp supports unless they are home made replacements for some reason and were made incorrectly. ( Highly unlikely) that would not solve the problem anyway.

Regulate key height & dip first. Then hammer stroke distance ( hammer tips to bottom of tines at rest) then, set escapement assuming your voicing is ok. Make minor adjustments on each key to suit your taste.

You say it will not solve the problem -- could you tell me why you say that? I don't want to make a HUGE mistake!

[Ben Bove]

Hey matt - noticed you measured your bass escapement in an earlier post of 1/2", ideally it should be around 1/4" possibly a little greater depending.  When you said you can crank it down to 3/16" did you mean via screwing down the tonebar?

Being that they're the wood block supports, you can't really make an irreversible mistake.  As you said, if you take say 1/4" off the top, you can easily reshim it up to any amount, even right back up to 1/4".  My advice would be if you're going through the trouble of cutting the block, to take a little more off than expected - easier to add another shim rather than have to recut the block again.  So if your tonebars are set up correctly at the right height for escapement, and you just can't get the harp any lower with notes not triggering on soft playing, then it should be ok to experiment with cutting the block to lower the harp.  You can just build it back up should it not work.

It's the aluminum harp support blocks that would give you trouble, can't really cut those as they're not a flush block.

As you know, with dropping the harp lower you'll need to readjust the dampers to compensate so they don't collide with the tines, and readjust the strikeline (pulling forward a bit) to get it in optimal strike area.  Then when it's set up correctly, you should be able to compare if you can get a good sound out of it.  From what I hear sight unseen it sounds like escapement is too large.

[mattjhuber]

Escapement is in fact too great. If I adjust the escapement down using the escapement screws, then re-adjusting the timbre screw, I can just barely reach 3/16.

[mattjhuber]

Hey matt - noticed you measured your bass escapement in an earlier post of 1/2", ideally it should be around 1/4" possibly a little greater depending.  When you said you can crank it down to 3/16" did you mean via screwing down the tonebar?

Being that they're the wood block supports, you can't really make an irreversible mistake.  As you said, if you take say 1/4" off the top, you can easily reshim it up to any amount, even right back up to 1/4".  My advice would be if you're going through the trouble of cutting the block, to take a little more off than expected - easier to add another shim rather than have to recut the block again.  So if your tonebars are set up correctly at the right height for escapement, and you just can't get the harp any lower with notes not triggering on soft playing, then it should be ok to experiment with cutting the block to lower the harp.  You can just build it back up should it not work.

It's the aluminum harp support blocks that would give you trouble, can't really cut those as they're not a flush block.

As you know, with dropping the harp lower you'll need to readjust the dampers to compensate so they don't collide with the tines, and readjust the strikeline (pulling forward a bit) to get it in optimal strike area.  Then when it's set up correctly, you should be able to compare if you can get a good sound out of it.  From what I hear sight unseen it sounds like escapement is too large.

Is there are good way to cut the block while it is still in the case, or did you have to remove the harp supports and action rail?

[Ben Bove]

To cut it straight you'd want it removed from the case and piano by itself, and put on a chop saw or some other saw that would ensure a straight cut.  If it's cut to an angle or a rough cut that would affect the angle the harp sits on the piano.

You might also want to take note of the size of the original block and maybe cut a new piece of wood to the desired dimension minus 1/4".  That way, you'd be able to put in the "original" block should you want to consider that, and use a new cut piece of wood at a smaller height as a suggestion.

[pianotuner steveo]

I said it most likely wouldnt solve the problem, because altering the design does not seem like the correct thing to do, but Dave said he had good luck doing just what you were thinking. There has to be a simple reason for this, though,  I doubt the piano was always like this right from the factory.
Are you absolutely sure that you have tried every reasonable adjustment first? Lowering tines, key dip, etc?

I hate to see you do something irreversible just to find that it doesnt help.

Have you tried the miracle mod or a simple home made test version on a few keys? Try gluing a couple of wooden matchsticks cut to the width of a key on a few keys....( in the correct spot on the pedestal) this will reduce the stroke but also will lighten the action and make the hammers more responsive with a light touch...

[David Aubke]

When pondering whether to irreversibly alter my harp support, I recalled bjammerz saying that in his view, the factory action was often too high.

Later, I thought maybe this was actually the answer to a recent question of mine. I may not have had to take such drastic measures if I'd used more of the original balance rail punchings.

[mattjhuber]

Are you absolutely sure that you have tried every reasonable adjustment first? Lowering tines, key dip, etc?

I hate to see you do something irreversible just to find that it doesnt help.

Have you tried the miracle mod or a simple home made test version on a few keys? Try gluing a couple of wooden matchsticks cut to the width of a key on a few keys....( in the correct spot on the pedestal) this will reduce the stroke but also will lighten the action and make the hammers more responsive with a light touch...

Here is what I've done so far:
- Lowered tines as far as they would go via escapement screw, then setting the timbre...no dice.
- Installed miracle mod...action feels better, but still the same problem.
- Checked key bushings and eased keys that needed it
- Worked with key dip...seems to be set really well already...no adjustments I made aided the issue.
- Adjusted the damper module every way imaginable...again, no improvement.

Hmmm...I can't imagine what else to do. Am I overlooking anything, pianotuner?

[pianotuner steveo]

Is the any way ( as an experiment)  you can remove the key frame and shim it a little higher, raising all keys at once, which would be similar to lowering the harp support, but without cutting anything?

I am sure you have removed any harp shims....

I think we pretty much all agree that the hammer stroke ( distance between hammer tips and bottom of tines) is too great....

[Abraham]

maybe balance rail felt shims were removed, allowing less travel to the keys, making the hammers to stop earlier not reaching the tines. Ill try shimming the balance rail pins further before cutting out anything

[David Aubke]

Is the any way ( as an experiment)  you can remove the key frame and shim it a little higher, raising all keys at once, which would be similar to lowering the harp support, but without cutting anything?

The harp supports rest on the key frame and would rise along with the keys, wouldn't they?

[Ben Bove]

I do agree that from factory, his piano was probably set up correctly and wouldn't have needed any sort of alteration, but any number of things over 40 years seems to have caused something to fall out of alignment?  It's difficult to say sight unseen

[Cormac Long]

I would unscrew the frame from the case and lift it out.

Then photograph the affected areas for all to see... make sure we can see the harp support blocks, key area etc. It may help clarify if some kind of tampering was done elsewhere to cause this over escapement.

[mattjhuber]

Okay...so, I went ahead and did the dirty deed. I feel like a bit of a rhodes-heretic for doing so, I must say.

After some escapement measurements and double checking, I cut it down 3/16"... re-mounted and put the whole thing back together...

MASSIVE improvement. It is pretty unbelievable, actually. Much more dynamic and expressive to begin with. Secondly, strike line seems to be improved...this is especially noticeable on the upper end of the harp. It was basically a drop-in modification...I ran through all of the keys and escapement appears to need no further adjustment.

I want to be very clear: I agree with the sentiment around here that this should be a last resort. However, given my specific Rhodes, this seemed to completely solve the issue.

I really appreciate everyone's help!

[dlux]

Are you 100% sure your action is sitting in the cabinet correctly ? Some strange things can happen .

[pianotuner steveo]

Sorry David, I forgot about the harp supports resting on the frame. I was thinking it was more like in a grand piano. I just looked at my piano bass and you are correct.

[mattjhuber]

Are you 100% sure your action is sitting in the cabinet correctly ? Some strange things can happen .

Yep...I pulled it ALL apart and I didn't notice anything strange, be it warping or modification.

I am wondering how it happened...I doubt it came out of the factory this way, although, who knows? The 70s weren't known for quality control...

[Ben Bove]

Great to hear it solved.  It's difficult to say especially with early pianos being made almost entirely from wood.  Expansion and contraction and all sorts of things can move tolerances out of alignment.  Glad to hear that's the solution!

[mattjhuber]

Yeah -- I'm glad too. It made me very nervous to put the saw to the support blocks...but, it certainly paid off.

Now, just doing some work on the electronics and voicing, and I'll have a mighty fine Rhodes for around $450! It is a good day!