Wurlitzer 200a questions

[tweak]

Hey guys, I'm thinking about trading one of my guitars for a Wurlitzer 200a, and I have a few questions about it. My guitar is a 77 fender mustang, and its worth probably around $850 or so. His wurli is missing the sustain pedal, legs, and the music rack. He had the preamp replaced by vintage vibe and the rest of the amplifier re-built. Here what he said need to be done to it

" As far as the work it needs, I guess that depends on how far you want to take it. You can turn it on and it plays fine, vibrato works, all of the keys work etc. The F above middle C has small piece of wood broken off of the "whip" section of the key assembly. It still plays but it takes more force than the other keys. I bought the replacement assembly but had not gotten around to swapping them out yet. I have used this a bunch for recording over the past 10 years and it works great for me but I am also not a "pianist" so I don't need it to play like a grand piano. Some keys ring out a little longer than others, some are a little out of tune (this tuning can be done at home, I just haven't kept up on it recently and the tines change in pitch over time)."


I can't tell if this is a "good" piano, or just an inevitable money pit. Should I ask for cash or something else on his end of the trade?


Thanks,

Alec

[tweak]

Does anyone have any advice? I don't think I can really wait too long until I'd be unable to make the trade. Anything would be of help

Thanks,

Alec 

[Rob A]

The electronics may be the most difficult thing to repair, but this piano has that all sorted out. That's a big advantage. I'm guessing you haven't priced a damper pedal, but that's a couple hundred dollar item. Tuning is doable at home like he says, but perhaps not ideally suited for someone not a tech. I don't agree that the tines change pitch over time, not sure what he's getting at there.

Music rack is useless. Legs are easily replaced with an X stand, but the damper pedal may be a problem. I wouldn't hesitate to mention that replacing that damper pedal (to make it properly payable) means that you have to put in a couple hundred bucks to get this to be a playable instrument, and see if he is willing to flex a bit on the price.

My bias is that I think the market is overpricing Wurlis somewhat. They are great instruments, and I own one (did own two). I just can see better ways to spend 800-1000 bucks.

[mvanmanen]

I would go ahead and give it a play. If it plays well then $850 is a reasonable price.
Depending on your style of playing you may not need the sustain pedal. You definitely do not need the music rack. And most standard keyboard stands should support it well.

That being said, there are a great deal of other new and used keyboards you could buy around this price point that are easier to gig with, have a more even action, midi capability, etc.
Still, wurli's generally have personality. The main reason I heave mine to gigs is I just enjoy the vibe, character, and organic sound. Also to consider, as a guitar player you already imaginably have some guitar amp which the Wurli will plug into nicely. If you buy a digital keyboard you will probably need a keyboard amp.

Good luck!

Michael

[Alan Lenhoff]

Two posters note that a music rack is useless...  Am I the only one here who actually reads music?  ;-)

(Just a rhetorical question.  No need for anyone to answer...) 

[Max Brink]

All of those issues seem to be very easily remedied with minor adjustments but I would try to walk him down a little from the price since it's missing the sustain pedal and legs. Together they will run you a couple hundred dollars. If it appears to be in good cosmetic condition and plays fairly well then I would consider it a pretty fair price at $850.

Tuning a Wurlitzer is an art form that may take you several hours on your first time through. As long as you have the time to sit down with it to do it correctly you will be very pleased with the outcome.


I have to respectfully disagree that there are other keyboards of equal value at this price point. I believe that most Rhodes and Wurlitzers are undervalued because people are unaware of how great they can play and sound when they are setup properly. There is no other keyboard new or used that is even close to being able to compete with the dynamic percussive action of a well setup Wurlitzer. And the 200 action assemblies are especially capable of being fine tuned like sports cars. If you find that the keys are uneven then you can have them setup to play evenly and with more dynamics than before.

Most Wurlitzers have not been properly setup for decades--if ever--by a well qualified tech. Even within the ones that are well regulated for proper lost motion and let off often have too much key dip in the white keys and the black keys are almost always set too high above the white keys. (I am starting to believe that the black keys were setup this way at the factory because almost all of them need to come down or have the white keys raised for proper height). Once you solve these issues your Wurlitzer will play like a dream.

[sean]

There is a reason he hasn't made the fix on that one single key yet... it is a fiddly difficult job unless you have done piano action work before.  (I predict that once you get inside the Wurly, and start closely examining the action, you will find other repairs that need to be done.  You already know it needs work on the dampers.)

If you compare the defects that the seller honestly makes about this 200A, and imagine similar defects to your Fender Mustang, you might realize that you should keep your Mustang:

200A had broken action on one key - is like one buzzing fret on your guitar. 
200A has uneven sustain, bad tuning - is like guitar needs truss rod adjustment.
200A has missing sustain pedal - is like your guitar has a broken vibrato assembly.
200A is missing legs - is comparable to your guitar missing a backplate or  pickguard.

Your Fender Mustang is probably not this badly beat up, but that Wurly 200A is hurting.


I would walk away from this Wurly 200A at $500.00.  I think $850 for this particular instrument is unthinkable.  If you have patience, you will be able to find a more playable/giggable Wurly 200A for $850.


I agree with Max that a Wurly is a joy to play, but I am not convinced that this particular 200A is going to make you proud that you traded a Fender Mustang for it.

Sean

[Max Brink]

Sean might be knocking some sense into my optimism. I may be compensating too much on how easy it would be for me to resolve these issues given my experience. If you're handy, it won't be too hard to replace the whip but it does require taking all of the action assembly out of the keyboard. And getting it back together, of course, which is where some flys (would we use plural flies in this case or is that just for the insect?) may have escaped the butt of the hammer and require you to piece them all back together.

I'd say Sean's Mustang:Wurli comparisons are a pretty good way of weighing the scales of the trade. I would give a little more weight to the bad tuning since poor voicing could be much more intensive than a truss rod adjustment--especially if you have notes that sound a bizarre "Thump" or ghost notes--that's when tuning and voicing becomes an fine art form. Overall the comparison would be a pretty solid way of measuring how good of a deal it is for you.

I always enjoy straight trades on Craiglist and you might find that it's much more convenient than trying to sell your Mustang for a reasonable price and waiting for the next Wurli at a more reasonable price than this one. Once the price dips below $700 there are usually a lot more problems than this for a 200A so I'd still say that this is in similar condition to what I have been checking out on Chicago's Craigslist.

[tweak]

Wow guys, thanks for all the advice. My mustang was modified to be hard-tail back in the 80s, needs a set up, and some solder work. So in that regard, I'm not really trading a pristine instrument for his wurli. But I'm not that tech proficient (especially with pianos/organs) and I'm currently sinking quite chunks of cash trying to get a Farfisa Combo Compact up and running. Should I ask him to maybe throw some cash in on his end or should I just pass and wait for another wurli or a rhodes in better condition to pop up? Hopefully by then my mustang will be sold and I can just buy one and not have to deal with a trade.

Thanks,

Alec

[mvanmanen]

Two posters note that a music rack is useless...  Am I the only one here who actually reads music?  ;-)

(Just a rhetorical question.  No need for anyone to answer...)

Definitely read music. But I put a second keyboard on top of the wurlitzer.
Still looking for a way to attach my iPad to one of the wurlitzer legs. 

I have to respectfully disagree that there are other keyboards of equal value at this price point.

Let me be clear that I did not say anything regarding "value." I completely agree that Wurlitzers are often undervalued, and certainly hold their monetary value better than many digital keyboards. That being said for $850 you could buy a used Electro, a used Little Phatty, etc. I am not sure what kind of music the opening poster plays, whether he plans to gig or record with the wurlitzer, etc..

Michael

[Rob A]

Yeah, value is distinct from fitness for a given purpose, however, they do intersect for the working musician.

I'd want two great Wurlis if I needed to tour with one.

[Max Brink]

I here you, Rob A, especially if it's going to be in a trailer that exposes it daily to changes in temperature and humidity I would ideally have a backup ready just in case. But for gigging around your local scene its a reliable workhorse of an instrument as long as it is maintained. And especially if you are setting up a home studio the Wurlitzer is one of the best values around.

I will concede that there are instances where a digital substitute is better for the situation but they will always come short of the real thing. Some of the digital emulations sound great, and you can color it up nicely with just a touch of fuzz, reverb, and other effects, but there's still something missing--especially for the player. Any substitute falls miles short of having the percussive action of the Wurlitzer which you cannot find anywhere else at a price point like this. Something happens when a player can feel the action of the hammer assembly at his fingertips rather than weighted keys (or worse). Nothing digital has the dynamic range of the soft strike to the sound of playing forte that you'll get from sitting down with real thing.

The other thing that you'll run into is that the Wurlitzer will hold its monetary value longer because its design has and will continue to stand the test of time. If you have a digital substitute and decide to sell it a few years down the line its monetary value will be competing with the latest and greatest available. All the while, digital technology has been continually advancing while at the same time coming down in price. On the other hand, the electro-mechanical Wurlitzer will continue to sound just as good as it does today and it's parts can be regulated to play just as well too.

And how about the value of the craftsmanship of the Wurlitzer alone? If there were a new instrument being produced with the same level of craftsmanship it would cost over $5,000. For instance, just take a look at the price tag of the Vintage Vibe tine piano of ~$4,000-6,000 (off the top of my head). After sitting down with one in person I can tell you it definitely backs up the value with the craftsmanship and design. Also, from what I gather from my conversations with original owners, Rhodes used to sell for around the same price once you account for inflation ($1,000 in 1974 = ~$4,670 in 2012 according to the CPI). And now for around that price you can add Midi to your Vintage Vibe tine piano giving you the best of both worlds!

When you take all of this into account, we're talking about being able to pick up used Wurlitzers and Rhodes for a fraction of the value of their craftsmanship. And if I had to make my forecast, with the ease of availability of replacement parts these days due to companies like Vintage Vibe and the continued demand for their timbre, I would expect their value to increase as more years go by. In the end, the electro-mechanical Wurlitzer, Rhodes, and now Vintage Vibe's tine piano are in a completely different league than anything else available.

In my book if you can find a halfway decent Wurlitzer for around $1,000 it's one of the best ways you could possibly spend your money on any keyboard. And if you have the budget for one you can get a virtually brand new Rhodes from Vintage Vibe for just a bit more without having to worry about the condition of the piano and its parts.

[mvanmanen]

My Wurlitzer is my favorite