vv backcheck mod

[Julian T]

Just installed the vv backcheck mod. Fiddly but worth it. If I was doing it again, I'd start how the vv vid does - note 1 then 73, but I would then unscrew them and run the line on the screw holes. Then if you keep one backcheck as a template for the folds, use an awl to start the hole, then screw in on the line. Would be faster IMO

[drcarver]

One other note to potential backcheck mod users. 

I put the mod on my mkII a while back.  It is probably the best thing I've done for the action.  I will say, however, that the glue they supplied to attach the felt to the metal pieces was pretty terrible.  Since installing, every single felt piece has fallen off at some point during playing.  I then attached them with some super glue and problem solved.

[David Aubke]

drcarver, are you talking about the VintageVibe kit? I've gotten a couple of those and they had self-adhesive felt. Is that what you used or did yours come with a separate glue?

[AFeastOfFriends]

I've been considering getting the backcheck mod for my Piano Bass. The action is great on it, but man is there some horrible hammer bounce.

[Julian T]

no problems with the glues so far... really like how it plays though. When I was fitting it I was so intent on comparing the key I was working on with its neighbour, I really wasn't sure anything was happening, then when I put the lid on and played the thing - wow...

[drcarver]

drcarver, are you talking about the VintageVibe kit? I've gotten a couple of those and they had self-adhesive felt. Is that what you used or did yours come with a separate glue?

Mine just came with cardboard-backed felt and some cheap glue.  Maybe it was one of their earlier products...I did it several years ago.  At any rate, after I figured out that the glue was terrible, I used some good super glue.  Now they are super solid.  Probably one of the best things I've done for the action on my Rhodes.

[bourniplus]

Hey guys,
I'm seriously considering adding backchecks to my Mark V. If someone has the right tools (and the spare time) to install regular acoustic piano backchecks, is there any reason not to use those instead of the Vintage vibe ones? Has anybody experimented with both?
thanks
Martin

[voltergeist]

I only have experience with the VV backchecks (which I've installed on five pianos), but I've seen some acoustic piano backcheck installs. 

One might turn the question around:  Is there any reason not to use VV backchecks instead of acoustic backchecks?

The VV backchecks are easy to install and easy (though tedious) to adjust.  Acoustic backchecks look difficult and tedious to install, and I don't know what adjustment would entail.  The VV solution adds virtually zero weight, whereas acoustic backchecks would probably add a couple pounds.  Personally, I would need a pretty compelling reason to use something other than VV's checks.

[bourniplus]

Thanks for your reply,

One might turn the question around:  Is there any reason not to use VV backchecks instead of acoustic backchecks?

Because acoustic backchecks have been used in millions of pianos successfully and are the result of centuries of experimentation? I just happen to have an easy access to those.

[voltergeist]

Thanks for your reply,

One might turn the question around:  Is there any reason not to use VV backchecks instead of acoustic backchecks?

Because acoustic backchecks have been used in millions of pianos successfully and are the result of centuries of experimentation? I just happen to have an easy access to those.

Because acoustic backchecks have been used in millions of *acoustic* pianos successfully and are the result of centuries of experimentation *in acoustic pianos with acoustic piano actions*?

[pianotuner steveo]

No, I would not use or recommend acoustic piano back checks in a Rhodes. Rhodes back checks are designed for Rhodes. Apples and oranges. Not even remotely similar.


Let me just clarify that I would never put any back checks in a Rhodes personally, but if I had to, I would use the VV back check mod.

[8675309]

Folks, if anyone is willing to commit a great deal of time futzing with the VV back-check mod then spend that same amount of time learning how to better setup your piano. The outcome will be better.  Back-check mods aren't necessary.  A properly setup Rhodes action is fantastic- and minor key bounce is part of the mechanical function of the Rhodes action. If the key bounce is excessive, its because another aspect of that instrument is not properly setup or functioning.   Key bounce is present on any real mechanical action one puts their hands on from a Rhodes to an acoustic piano, the bounce is there- even with a back check. in some instances more bounce on a worn instrument, but its still there regardless, even new weighted actions have key bounce.  If a Rhodes action is setup correct, the feel and responsiveness the instrument provides the player will be so good you won't notice the bounce.

The concept of drilling more holes into vintage instruments runs a chill down my back.. It could be that 1 key where the wood is more dry, which splits while your adding something that isn't meant to be there.   

Also why aren't these back-checks installed into the new VV tine pianos?
VV allegedly modeled their tine piano after the more desirable earlier era of Rhodes action according to whats been floating around the interweb here.
Also I've noticed its not installed on the majority Rhodes restoration work posted in their various photo galleries...

Kind of left me scratching my head??

[pianotuner steveo]

Here! here!

[voltergeist]

If you like bouncing hammers, then there is no value in backchecks.  If you don't like bouncing hammers, then there is value in backchecks.

On Down the Rhodes, you can see just about every players' keys bouncing (no back checks), but it also seemed pretty clear that George Duke's piano does have backchecks.  George was a fast and percussive player who probably found a lot of value in backchecks.  One can play much faster repetitive notes with backchecks, because the hammer returns to the pedestal immediately, rather than after a period of bouncing, during which the action is unpredictable.

The value of backchecks depends on the player and his preferences. 

Personally, I don't care for the bouncing hammers- it makes the piano feel like a toy.  A Rhodes with backchecks feels solid and predictable.  I would wager that backchecks were left off the design due to cost and complexity- not because the standard Rhodes action is superior in any way, other than simplicity itself.

[pianotuner steveo]

In a properly set up Rhodes, without back checks, the hammers shouldn't bounce.
I know of a couple that do not have bouncing hammers, nor backchecks.

[filigroove]

My rhodes had bouncing hammers, i put vv backchecks, now they don't bounce. Are there different solutions? well I'm not a super-tech, the only thing i know is that I easily solved the problem.
ciao

[pianotuner steveo]

If they work, that is great, but guys and gals had been playng Rhodes for 30-40 years before they were even invented....

[Max Brink]

Folks, if anyone is willing to commit a great deal of time futzing with the VV back-check mod then spend that same amount of time learning how to better setup your piano. The outcome will be better.  Back-check mods aren't necessary.  A properly setup Rhodes action is fantastic- and minor key bounce is part of the mechanical function of the Rhodes action. If the key bounce is excessive, its because another aspect of that instrument is not properly setup or functioning.   Key bounce is present on any real mechanical action one puts their hands on from a Rhodes to an acoustic piano, the bounce is there- even with a back check. in some instances more bounce on a worn instrument, but its still there regardless, even new weighted actions have key bounce.  If a Rhodes action is setup correct, the feel and responsiveness the instrument provides the player will be so good you won't notice the bounce.

The concept of drilling more holes into vintage instruments runs a chill down my back.. It could be that 1 key where the wood is more dry, which splits while your adding something that isn't meant to be there.   

Also why aren't these back-checks installed into the new VV tine pianos?
VV allegedly modeled their tine piano after the more desirable earlier era of Rhodes action according to whats been floating around the interweb here.
Also I've noticed its not installed on the majority Rhodes restoration work posted in their various photo galleries...

Kind of left me scratching my head??

Exactly my thoughts as well.

[pianotuner steveo]

And mine. My hammers don't bounce, no back checks.

[voltergeist]

How about some demo vids of these no-bounce setups?

[pianotuner steveo]

I wouldn't know how. I am an old guy. No video camera and no way to post it anyway ( no computer)

And no, I don't have a smart phone.

[filigroove]

yeah! Pure old school!

[David Aubke]

I wouldn't know how. I am an old guy. No video camera and no way to post it anyway ( no computer)

And no, I don't have a smart phone.

Now wait a minute.. I don't really care how your hammers bounce but how on earth have you been posting messages to this board all these years?

[Fred]

Ha!

[Max Brink]

@Fred- I have always been puzzled by the back check system being simultaneously endorsed on your site while not implemented in your own piano. Can you share what the reason for this is?

[pianotuner steveo]

David, I use an iPad. (original model, no camera)


My cat knocked over a cup of coffee onto my laptop a few years ago, and I never replaced it.

Everyone asks, "why did you let your cat drink coffee while using your laptop?"

But it's true....

[Mansfield]

I'm considering installing the VV back checks on my piano, but I'm curious about one thing: does the added weight of the back checks have a noticeable impact on the responsiveness (quickness) of the action? I like to be able to play softly at times, so added weight on the keys is something I want to take into consideration.

Thanks,

Adam

[Max Brink]

Back checks within an acoustic piano deliver more responsiveness because they help catch the hammer for it's next throw. But the Rhodes' action is not at all the same as an acoustic piano and the system of back checks that people install within Rhodes operate in a way that is not directly analogous to the system within an acoustic piano. Back checks within acoustic pianos grab the hammer after it's strike and before the key is released. The VV system, and others like it that I have seen through my shop, do not do this. They are designed to catch the hammer arm after the key is released and key returns to the rest position. The two systems are hardly analogous because the back check is operating at completely different intervals.

The pedestal bump modification is more directly analogous to a back check system in a way that an acoustic piano sets up it's next strike because it adds friction to secure the hammer for the next throw. This is a good way to increase responsiveness but in some cases will have a negative impact on the throw distance of the hammers which is rarely mentioned. In some cases the action without the bump may feel more responsive than others because of the increased hammer throw distance.

On the issues of bouncing hammers you are experiencing other issues with your action setup and although these systems may put a band-aid on the issue they are only masking the other issues. You would be better off regulating the action than to use a back check that will only mask the issues that you are encountering.


I'm really confused as to why anyone is interested in screwing foreign parts into a vintage musical instrument but what is even more curious to me is why Vintage Vibe seems to encourage using them in a sales pitch on their product page while they do not incorporate them into their own pianos which use the same action design... ()

[Ben Bove]

That is a very good point on the backchecks - just due to the Rhodes' action design, the jack that throws the hammer does not escape the initial hammer throw - an acoustic piano backcheck grabs the hammer as the jack escapes out (similar also to a Wurlitzer 200 action) where the Rhodes action, the key pedestal is always in interaction with the hammer.

Therefore the only real way to implement a back check is with how Vintage Vibe has designed theirs, a catch-after.  Which I do want to insert a point - I have played Rhodes pianos with backcheck mods, and I feel they can be more responsive, when accurately and correctly installed (a big caveat).  Just like the bump modification - no, that's not the only answer to your action woes.  In fact there are a lot of other adjustments that need to be maximized in order to get the best action, and then improve the action even better by inserting a bump mod.  With a backcheck on an optimized action, there is a reduction on key bounce at least in my own first-hand experience. 

It is all personal preference of course, and if key bounce is even a factor for someone in the feel of the action.  Personally, I prefer the action on an acoustic piano / Wurlitzer 200 and feel the Rhodes action was sort of a compromise in having only a couple of interacting parts.  Just looking at a Renner piano action for example in comparison with a Rhodes... there's no comparison in the intricacies of an efficiently designed piano action.  So, ideally I feel there should have been some sort of backcheck installed on Rhodes pianos to control the kinetic energy of hammer fall... but we're talking about an action that was designed around the concept of smashing a dinner fork on a table.

[pianotuner steveo]

To answer the weight question, no, this will not alter the feel in that respect at all. Actually, adding key weights (such as Jiffy lead weights) at the back of the key, makes them feel LIGHTER. These do not weigh enough to notice a change in weight either way IMO.

[Fred]

I agree with steveo regarding additional weight.

@ Max: We offer back checks for those who prefer the feel of them installed in their piano. We have not received an overwhelming demand for them in past in-house restorations, so they are available by request for our own piano.