Author Topic: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track  (Read 9883 times)

Offline Alan Lenhoff

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Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
« Reply #30 on: July 19, 2013, 11:45:57 AM »
And the mystery deepens...

After we solve this, we can move on to investigate what really happened to Jim Morrison in Paris.  ;-)
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Offline David Ell

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Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
« Reply #31 on: July 19, 2013, 12:23:51 PM »
It's sounding more like a twin to me now. Is that the spring reverb I hear? Could it be that the hard marimba sound in the midrange is just a combination of double strike plus damper kiss? It reminds me of how a fork sounds when you put your finger on the tone bar. Damper kiss and double strike sound like that. He is slamming those keys. 

Offline ForkintheRhodes

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Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
« Reply #32 on: July 19, 2013, 02:47:29 PM »
Well what I can make out from what I hear during the solo is that you can hear the low end of the Rhodes playing the bassline, it's not a bass guitar. HOWEVER, in the beginning and during the verses he doesn't sound like he's playing a bassline. I don't see why he would play the Rhodes Piano Bass, just because it's one more thing to mike and it wouldn't sound as crisp on record as a bass guitar, hence Jerry Scheff on bass and a bassist on almost every studio track they did (except for "The End" and "When the Music's Over" where it's clearly a Rhodes bass. BUT, on the first album you can hear both Rhodes bass and bass guitar. The Rhodes has more of that groaning sound, and the bass guitar has more of that clicking, staccato sound. Prime example of that is "Soul Kitchen", it's a nice counterpoint.) Besides, putting a Rhodes bass on top of a Rhodes isn't like putting one on a Vox or Gibson organ, it's much higher up and kind of cumbersome. He probably just did the bassline in the Riders solo so he could have something to do with the left hand. Towards the mid-range the marimba sound comes out, but in the low end it's a pretty run of the mill low end Rhodes sound to me. BUT, the sound in general in the isolation sounds like it's hugging the high end, very treble-y, and the Rhodes in the photos doesn't have Janus controls, they probably did that with a Fender Twin and did the vibrato on the Rhodes itself. It sounds like it's tube drive to me in the solo when he hits the tines really hard, but I could be wrong.
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Offline Ben Bove

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Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
« Reply #33 on: July 19, 2013, 03:06:59 PM »
Yes on this version here he definitely didn't use a piano bass - 4:15ish when the solo ends and vibrato comes on, it's on both left and right hands.

Splitting hairs, the other fuel for the 1970 fire, is at 1:26 - the bass octaves don't sound like they came from a silvertop.

I know someone that has a 1970 original stage felt tips, maybe we can do a little experiment for kicks - silvertop vs. 1970 stage / twin.
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Offline pianotuner steveo

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Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
« Reply #34 on: July 19, 2013, 05:19:18 PM »
I wasn't that serious about him using the piano bass on top of the Rhodes, I just meant it was a possibile scenario.  Good catch Ben, on the vibrato around 4:15.  Didn't notice that before.


1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
1968 Gibson G101 Combo organ
1975 Rhodes Piano Bass
1979 Wurlitzer 206A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 270 Butterfly Grand
2004 Hammond XK3
2009 73A Rhodes Mark 7
2009 Korg SV-1 73
2017 Yamaha P255
2020 Kawai CA99
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Offline The Real MC

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Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
« Reply #35 on: July 24, 2013, 04:06:28 PM »
Here's something interesting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAP-EIs3AWo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFpuMFlKXjY

An early 1968 silvertop with Peterson preamp.  You can hear the stereo tremolo.  The ROTS descending lick is demonstrated in the 1st video.  You can hear how the Peterson preamp sounds cleaner and different from the Jordan preamp.

Offline David Ell

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Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
« Reply #36 on: July 28, 2013, 09:58:43 AM »
A '70 sounds out of this world with my pre amp. I recently did one and could not stop playing it. Remove the mud with the pre amp and it's sounds like a hopped up Wurly, only better.

Offline ummagumma

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Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
« Reply #37 on: August 12, 2020, 12:21:13 AM »
 I have been trying to figure out the bass signal in this isolated recording: at first I thought it was just room bleed, or maybe he dubbed the bass seperately...it almost sounds like a different instrument compared to the right hand, since the level is drastically lower

  *edit* I just realized Ray is not playing bass at all, until 1 minute. but you CAN hear the bleed from the bass guitar up until then. afterwards you have the bass gtr bleed plus Ray's left hand

 but at 3:14 & 4:06 he hits a bass note that is almost as loud as the lead. So I think Ray was just playing the left hand much quieter than the right

 if they had an 8 track I doubt they would have split up the keys

  if vibrato was a footswitch, and that Fender amp is down by his feet, I'd think you might hear the click?

 I hear vibrato from the beginning of the track until 1 min. then it turns off

 and at 1:35 it sure kicks up! must have been a footwitch. then 1:58 switches off again. or maybe when they mixed it later on they added something?

« Last Edit: August 12, 2020, 12:33:55 AM by ummagumma »

Offline Alan Lenhoff

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Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
« Reply #38 on: August 12, 2020, 08:30:38 AM »
The Rhodes chapter I wrote in "Classic Keys" tells who played bass on a number of Doors recordings (some are bass guitarists, some were done by Ray, and some had both).  This was mostly based on an interview with Robby Krieger, and supports what you are hearing: Light My Fire has both bass guitar (Larry Knechtel) and left hand bass.

The volume differences you noted of the left hand bass versus the lead may have resulted from Ray playing his bass lines on a Piano Bass, rather than playing the bass in the low register of the 73.  Stop me if I'm telling you something you already know, but the tone filter circuit on the name rail of a Piano Bass removes upper harmonics, creating a rounder, more mellow and fundamental tone than what you'd hear on a 73.  Bass played on a 73 is not nearly as effective.  (Although they both would sound identical if you took the signal from each instrument off its harp, bypassing its name rail.) I don't know which instrument Ray used for his bass lines on that song, but generally there would be a good reason to use the Piano Bass if you had both instruments available.

Alan

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1965 UK Vox Continental;1967 Gibson G101 organ; 1954 Hammond B2; Leslie 21H; Leslie 31H; 1974 Rhodes Mark I Stage 73; 1972 Rhodes Sparkletop Piano Bass; 1978 Hohner Clavinet D6; 1968 Hohner Pianet N II; 1966 Wurlitzer 140B; 1980 Moog Minimoog Model D; 1983 Roland JX-3P; 1977 Fender Twin Reverb; 1983 Roland JX-3P synth; Vox AC30CC2X amp.
(See the collection: https://vintagerockkeyboards.com/ )

Offline ummagumma

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Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
« Reply #39 on: August 12, 2020, 01:56:18 PM »

 hmm, possible, but it doesn't sound like a piano bass to me: it has the fuller sound of a regular MKI to my ears?

 especially check out the 2 loud notes at 3:14 & 4:06 in that isolated track

Offline Alan Lenhoff

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Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
« Reply #40 on: August 12, 2020, 02:43:46 PM »
Even after listening to the track carefully -- and firing up my Piano Bass and my 73 -- I'll stick with my prior statement: "I don't know which instrument Ray used."  What makes the comparison most difficult for me is that my '72 Piano Bass with neoprene hammer tips doesn't sound like the '60's-vintage bass Ray typically used, probably with square tone bars and felt hammer tips.

For what it's worth, a friend of mine plays keyboards in Robby Krieger's band, and plays Ray's parts note-for-note. He says what he hears on ROTS is Ray playing the bass line on a Piano Bass, but an octave higher than the bass guitar to keep the bottom end from being muddy.  Is he right?  Well, he's got a great ear, but the recording was done decades before he was born, so he was hardly a witness.  So who can say?

Alan

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Learn about the book: http://www.classickeysbook.com/
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1965 UK Vox Continental;1967 Gibson G101 organ; 1954 Hammond B2; Leslie 21H; Leslie 31H; 1974 Rhodes Mark I Stage 73; 1972 Rhodes Sparkletop Piano Bass; 1978 Hohner Clavinet D6; 1968 Hohner Pianet N II; 1966 Wurlitzer 140B; 1980 Moog Minimoog Model D; 1983 Roland JX-3P; 1977 Fender Twin Reverb; 1983 Roland JX-3P synth; Vox AC30CC2X amp.
(See the collection: https://vintagerockkeyboards.com/ )

Offline ummagumma

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Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
« Reply #41 on: August 12, 2020, 07:01:02 PM »
 ha! well it is interesting to speculate!

 why don't you ask your friend, to ask Robby what he remembers?

 a piano bass would be conspicuous on top of the MKI, especially as it's not in any of the pictures of the sessions in their LA workplace

 actually, I've always wondered where Robby's gtr amp was, as I think the amp by Jim's feet was a vocal monitor? maybe Robby had it in the other room? there is a darker Fender amp against the wall, but the other gtr player was plugged into it. and I saw an unused Twin beside the drum kit, against the wall on Ray's side
« Last Edit: August 12, 2020, 07:05:40 PM by ummagumma »

Offline ummagumma

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Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
« Reply #42 on: August 12, 2020, 07:14:09 PM »
 another thing: I don't think the amp Ray used was a twin. it looks too tall to me, and the top speakers are side-by-side. so I think it's a 4x10 silver face Fender amp? SF twins had the speakers mounted diagonally

*edit* I guess I am wrong about that! the amp by Jim's feet is a twin and the speakers are side-by-side. weird my '73 SF twin was diagonal
« Last Edit: August 12, 2020, 07:35:07 PM by ummagumma »

Offline Eminor

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Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
« Reply #43 on: August 16, 2020, 09:51:15 PM »
This isn't an isolated track but an interesting outtake (take 10) form the ROTS recording session. There's a few minutes of tuning and jamming at the beginning - maybe your ears can pick up a clue somewhere in there....?   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1z3lZC4NUpI

Also, some cool pics of the LA Woman sessions accompany the audio.

Chris

Offline pianotuner steveo

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Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
« Reply #44 on: August 17, 2020, 06:12:23 PM »
If you look at the pics with the outtakes you can see it is definitely a stage piano. In at least one picture you can see the Wurlitzer that he used on a couple of tracks. (Queen of the Highway, I think?) and at least one track "Eye of the Storm" on Other Voices (post Morrison)
« Last Edit: August 17, 2020, 06:15:00 PM by pianotuner steveo »
1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
1968 Gibson G101 Combo organ
1975 Rhodes Piano Bass
1979 Wurlitzer 206A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 270 Butterfly Grand
2004 Hammond XK3
2009 73A Rhodes Mark 7
2009 Korg SV-1 73
2017 Yamaha P255
2020 Kawai CA99
....and a few guitars...

Offline ummagumma

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Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
« Reply #45 on: August 27, 2020, 06:19:44 PM »
 Eminor, thx for posting that outtake!

 and based on the photos, we can deduce the trem was the from Fender Twin & not the Rhodes, as a MK1 stage doesn't have trem

 if he *was* playing a piano bass, it must have been plugged into the twin along with the MK1, as the trem syncs up right/left hand

 and that twin by Jim's feet might have been Robby's, miked from behind? I don't see a mic in front of it

 of course, I am assuming that the pics are depicting the setup they used, for this particular song: quite possibly they moved things around, and we don't have any photos of the actual recording in question

Offline ummagumma

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Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
« Reply #46 on: June 18, 2021, 06:36:27 PM »
Saw an interview with Bruce Botnick, who says the Rhodes was recorded DI into the mixing console

He even isolates a few seconds of it from a mixing board

It's in the "mr mojo risin' " documentary

Offline ummagumma

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Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
« Reply #47 on: June 18, 2021, 07:12:36 PM »
I am wondering if they took a DI out of the Twin Reverb?

Otherwise how did Ray get the trem on & off?

It would also explain the lack of footswitch noise, that surely would have been picked up, if that Twin had been miked

Offline ummagumma

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Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
« Reply #48 on: June 18, 2021, 07:43:56 PM »
Haha, then he goes on to say:

"He wasn't playing through an amplifier"

So there goes that theory  8)

He must have had a vibrato footpedal though, as the rail on the MKI in those shots is stock

Offline ummagumma

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Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
« Reply #49 on: June 19, 2021, 01:57:25 PM »
Thinking about this: Ray must have been playing through an amplifier, how else could the band hear what he was doing?

I don't see any monitor headphones and I doubt they had return lines from the 8 track running back into a monitor

So I bet they took a DI off the twin reverb. Although there is clearly a mic on the twin, you can see the stand in the pics

Offline sookwinder

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Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
« Reply #50 on: October 12, 2021, 09:33:23 AM »
It's not a Rhodes, it is a Wurlitzer. 
Most likely the wooden framed one seen in a couple of the shots of their recording set up in the rehearsal room, where they all retreated to days after Rothchild told them they were playing bad cocktail music.

- The stage Rhodes (seen in the photos of the rehearsal room) does not have vibrato
- A SF Fender twin was not used as the vibrato sound on those amps is completely different and clicks come in every time you adjust the settings
- Bruce Botnick said he DI'd the keyboards for the LAW album  (most likely because if any of the keyboards where plugged into an amp it would bleed everywhere in that small rehearsal room)
- The overdrive/distortion you hear is solid state electronic distortion, exactly the same as that from the preamp in a wurli
- The vibrato sounds exactly like a wurli
- I do not know of any vibrato unit/pedal from 1971 that sounds like a Wurli vibrato

I have never been able to achieve the ROTS keyboard sound on my 73 Rhodes stage or any other Rhodes, my 200A Wurli gets it every time.

If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck ....  you don't try and create scenarios where you attempt to prove it is a cat.
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Offline pianotuner steveo

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Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
« Reply #51 on: October 27, 2021, 07:55:44 AM »
No, it is a Rhodes. He only used a Wurlitzer on 2 or 3 tracks over the years. I can't think of any other tracks with Wurlitzers other than the tracks I mentioned above.

The vibrato may sound like Wurlitzer vibrato, but the piano is a felt hammer Rhodes. The pianos sound almost nothing alike
« Last Edit: October 27, 2021, 08:03:07 AM by pianotuner steveo »
1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
1968 Gibson G101 Combo organ
1975 Rhodes Piano Bass
1979 Wurlitzer 206A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 270 Butterfly Grand
2004 Hammond XK3
2009 73A Rhodes Mark 7
2009 Korg SV-1 73
2017 Yamaha P255
2020 Kawai CA99
....and a few guitars...

Offline sookwinder

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Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
« Reply #52 on: October 28, 2021, 10:46:24 AM »
Ok … I’ll take the bait;
1. How do you explain the Wurlitzer tremolo sound used on ROTS?
The Rhodes used for the LA Woman sessions was a stage Rhodes and had no vibrato of any kind.
Bruce Botnick has stated in interviews that the keyboards were DI’d and as such were not put through amps, eliminating the option of using a trem circuit in the amp
2. Your statement (paraphrasing) that there are only a few tracks that wurlitzers were used in and ROTS is not one of them thus it is set in stone that the keyboard used on ROTS is not a Wurlitzer is a circular argument and holds no water. That is what we are discussing and the fact that you have said it isn’t a Wurlitzer with out any evidence means nothing
3. What do you mean they sound nothing like each other? I own a 200A (mid 70s) and a 73 stage Rhodes. If I want to get the ROTS sound I just turn on the Wurlitzer and stick it into a valve preamp and adjust the level of overdrive on the preamp and level of vibrato on the Wurlitzer
I have never been able to get even close to the sound on the stage Rhodes
The action on the Rhodes is nothing like the Wurlitzer and to achieve the note placement and feel I can only manage that again with the Wurlitzer
4. The sound of the overdrive / distortion of the keyboard track for ROTS is EXACTLY like that of a Wurlitzer when hitting this keys too heavily with the volume set at 10. It is solid state preamp distortion with the attack of the note exactly how one would expect the Wurlitzer to sound. Again not something one would expect with a stage Rhodes. To achieve the solid state distortion sound on the note attack the stage Rhodes would have to be put into a trem/vibrato unit that reproduced the Wurlitzer vibrato then into a solid state preamp and then finally into a valve preamp if the recording desk.  I lay any odds that did not occur and using the logic of Occam's razor the logical conclusion is that a Wurlitzer was used

Then the question is was there a Wurlitzer available in the rehearsal room / studio set up and the answer is yes.

Lastly this question is directed to any and all who read this thread
Why is there so much debate as to what keyboard was used on ROTS?
The answer is because basically no one over the past 50 years has been able to achieve the sound heard on the recording when using the “accepted type of keyboard “, namely a stage Rhodes (as seen in all the photos from the session)
If one removes the pre conceived notion that is MUST BE a Rhodes and looks (listens to the musical evidence then the logical answer is that it is a Wurlitzer (especially considering the vibrato and solid state distortion that can easily be heard in the recordings)
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Offline karnevil78

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Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
« Reply #53 on: October 28, 2021, 09:13:14 PM »
On the final studio recording I can hear mainly the Rhodes. On the isolated track you can hear the unmistakable overtones of the tines. I have used an old Acoustic Corp head that had a scarily similar tremolo effect to the one on Riders. They might have used one of those as AC flooded them with these amps in 68.

With that said, they initially started working on Riders at Sunset Studios (before Paul Rothchild left) and the first demo was recorded with a Wurly (no tremolo though) and the Piano Bass. You can listen to it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUmqGggw0oc

They might have used some of these tracks in the final version and if that's the case there should be both a Wurly and a Rhodes in there. Ray said it himself that John Densmore sat in with Bruce Botnick to do the final editing and Ray couldn't even recognise his own solo in the end as it was dissected to small parts and put back together in a different order.

About the bass on the final version it's Jerry Scheff on his Fender Precision Bass, with Ray playing along the bass on the lower end of the 73.

Offline pianotuner steveo

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Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
« Reply #54 on: October 29, 2021, 08:45:07 AM »
I'm sorry, but I tuned a piano for Ray Manzarek in 1999, and got to hang out with him. It IS a RHODES. We talked about it. He TOLD ME it was a Rhodes. That is my evidence!
Aside from the fact that it is very easy to tell the two instruments apart. Wurlitzers do not have the "chime" of a Rhodes. You can't duplicate the descending part on a Wurlitzer. There is not enough sustain. ( "The rain part" as Ray says)

I've never heard a Wurlitzer sound like a Rhodes, but have heard some Rhodes sound a bit like a Wurli, especially the early felt hammers or felt tips, which is what you are hearing. I have no explanation for the vibrato.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3deQXzV-qTk&t=1s


« Last Edit: October 29, 2021, 03:50:12 PM by pianotuner steveo »
1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
1968 Gibson G101 Combo organ
1975 Rhodes Piano Bass
1979 Wurlitzer 206A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 270 Butterfly Grand
2004 Hammond XK3
2009 73A Rhodes Mark 7
2009 Korg SV-1 73
2017 Yamaha P255
2020 Kawai CA99
....and a few guitars...

Offline pianotuner steveo

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Re: Manzarek's "Riders" iso track
« Reply #55 on: October 29, 2021, 09:27:56 AM »
He likely used a suitcase, probably his own. I know the photos show a stage, but that may have belonged to the studio.
1960 Wurlitzer model 700 EP
1968 Gibson G101 Combo organ
1975 Rhodes Piano Bass
1979 Wurlitzer 206A EP
1980 Wurlitzer 270 Butterfly Grand
2004 Hammond XK3
2009 73A Rhodes Mark 7
2009 Korg SV-1 73
2017 Yamaha P255
2020 Kawai CA99
....and a few guitars...