Manzarek's "Riders" iso track

[Student Rhodes]

This is a very cool youtube link to Ray's isolated track from "Riders On The Storm."
We've all heard the track a thousand times, but hearing the piano alone is revelatory.
Recorded in late '70, so I guess this is the sound of late Raymacs.  They sparkle on this cut, yet still have a lot of punch when he hits it. 
The piano might have had teardrop hammers, but felt cube tips at the least, no?
Interesting, shimmering vibrato.  Pictures from the session show a Stage model, so it must have been an outboard effect, I guess.

Check it out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsuAqc4Ezps&NR=1&feature=endscreen

Ray

[Cormac Long]

Excellent find.. that's one for my favorites list

[Student Rhodes]

Thinking about it, I wonder if Ray was playing through the vibrato channel of something like a Fender Twin? 
Would have been much simpler than plugging into some pedal, and the Twin was the amp Fender recommended.

[The Real MC]

Nice find.

That doesn't sound like the Twin Reverb.  There is clipping on that track that sounds more like transistors clipping, it's pretty obvious when he hits hard notes or when there are a cluster of notes like the descending pattern.  The tubes in the TR would overdrive mildly but not clip harshly like that.  You can hear the clipping wade in and out with the tremolo which is a telltale of transistor clipping in the preamp.  It isn't stereo tremolo so it may had been played on a piano with the Jordan preamp which was mono tremolo, and those Jordans weren't the cleanest Rhodes preamps.

Definitely sounds like Raymacs.  The notes below middle C have that trademark "woofiness" of Raymacs and not the pleasant "furr" of Torringtons.  Ray is also playing the bass ostinato throughout the song and the tone of the bass notes have that trademark Raymac timbre of mostly fundamental and few harmonics, radically different from Torrington tines.  Raymacs have a wonderful variable timbre in the top half of the piano that can be controlled with dynamic playing, which you really hear in this track.

The green pickups in the early Rhodes saturate on hard strikes of the tine.  That's the "punch" you hear here.  If you adjust their positions right, you can sound like you're slamming the piano when you're actually not.  Since Raymacs were the least durable tines (and hardest to find replacements), the less you can slam the tines the better.

[Tim Hodges]

Thanks for the link I've been playing it a few times since yesterday.

I wonder if that person will do anymore, I've love to download the MP3.

[Alan Lenhoff]

Excellent!  Thanks for posting it.

Alan

[Ben Bove]

I believe this classic recording was done with a Silvertop model - pre 1969 piano with Jordan preamp mono vibrato.

[Student Rhodes]

Yes Real MC is correct on all points, this classic recording was done with a Silvertop model - pre 1969 piano with Jordan preamp mono vibrato.

Hey Ben,
Interesting... What's your source on this?  Photos allegedly from the session clearly show a Stage model, with no Silvertop anywhere in the room.
Ray

[David Ell]

Raymacs.

[Student Rhodes]

Found another pic where there's definitely a silver faced Fender amp that's mic'd near Ray's piano area. 

However, in the same collection of pics, I found a shot of Ray at a Rhodes with a harp cover that seems to have a slightly taller profile, which may indicate a Sparkletop, but because of lighting and angle, you can't be sure.

[Ben Bove]

Well I have no visual representation, but strictly on the audio side - to my ears it's a Jordan preamp with the vibrato and clipping that I hear.  Highly distinctive to me but I guess that's not to say he didn't plug it in somehow to a Fender amp.  I do recall the guitar on the track having the similar vibrato effect.

Would love to see photos of the session if they're available, but from what I'm going on that's what I hear.

[Student Rhodes]

Here's a link to a flickr account that has a bunch of photos from the LA Woman sessions at the Doors Workshop.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/18739723@N00/8470318169/in/photostream/

I certainly can't say if the days they took these photos were also the days they may have recorded "Riders", but some pics clearly show the equipment they were using.

Not that it matters.  Just topics for conjecture and discussion.
Best,
Ray

[The Real MC]

It still doesn't sound like the Twin Reverb.  It may not had been the Jordan preamp or sparkletop, but Fender did have solid state guitar amps during that time.

[Ben Bove]

Thanks for the photo links.  The stage Rhodes in the main pics is from 1970 with the 3rd hinge in the middle of the back of the piano.  So this piano would have most likely had the felt cube tips, wouldn't have been rubber tips as of yet.

I also see a pic of what looks like a Silvertop with Ray's hand on his head, but then I looked closer and it's a vox organ with the Silvertop Piano Bass on top (and a beer on the right). 

Still, the sound of the vibrato to me is the Jordan preamp.  Especially at 1:26 when it's turned on, there's that classic delay happening until the effect completely kicks in.  Not sure how to explain it, but it's like the circuit doesn't get 100% juice on immediate turn on of vibrato.  Also around 3:26 when the double striking is going on it really sounds like the heavier tear drop hammers flapping around, but as you said it's good conjecture and discussion at this point.

If I get a moment, I'd like to compare audio with my Silvertop at home.  The only things I can't compare are a 1970 or a vibrato channel on a fender amp.

[pianotuner steveo]

Thanks so much for this link! It is so cool to hear isolated. I thought I knew it note for note, but heard a couple of small surprises in there.

[David Ell]

I have never heard a '70 stage Rhodes sound that way. Even a '69 doesn't sound that way. It sounds like un-tapered raymacs to me. The lower half of the keyboard has that "bad" marimba sound. I wonder, will we ever know for sure?

[The Real MC]

Clearer shot of the piano

http://www.flickr.com/photos/18739723@N00/8470317717/in/photostream/

There's a Fender tube amp under the piano with the JBL badge - with a mic on it.

Another with Ray at an old Wurlie

http://www.flickr.com/photos/18739723@N00/8471408748/in/photostream/

[pianotuner steveo]

I have two theories about why the bass sounds the way it does. If you notice, the right hand part is louder than the left. i think that either :

A. He did the two parts (left hand, right hand) as seperate tracks, therefore the mix, EQ, reverb, etc is different between the two hands

OR

B. He actually used his piano bass for the left hand, because that was how he was used to playing.
That would make the bass sound different also.

Another question that I wish that I asked him about.

[Alan Lenhoff]

I have two theories about why the bass sounds the way it does. If you notice, the right hand part is louder than the left. i think that either :

A. He did the two parts (left hand, right hand) as seperate tracks, therefore the mix, EQ, reverb, etc is different between the two hands

OR

B. He actually used his piano bass for the left hand, because that was how he was used to playing.
That would make the bass sound different also.

Another question that I wish that I asked him about.

I'm not sure whether you're talking about the actual bass line on the song -- or just how the Rhodes sounds below middle C.  But, in case it's the former:

The bass line was played by a bass guitarist. Ray talks about it here:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZJ7xhu-wy4  (You can also see a bass player in the studio photos from the links posted in this thread.)

The Doors used a bass player in the studio quite often.

Alan

[Ben Bove]

II wonder, will we ever know for sure?

Exactly.

Anyhow, either way it's either a silvertop Rhodes or that 1970 stage through a vibrato channel.  Both Raymacs and felt hammered heads is they way you'll get that sound.  A guitar amp expert might chime in better.

[Cormac Long]

Out of curiosity.. is this track isolated from the recording using software or is it an actual master track that someone got hold of. The amount of detail being preserved seems unbelievable for something that just filtered out the rest.

I've heard master tracks before where you would hear bleed through of other music.. however they were mostly from vocal tracks which picked up leakage from headphones playing back session demos that were used to then lay down individual tracks again.

[Ben Bove]

I will note though - at 1:35 when the vibrato kicks in, I feel both hands are playing and there isn't a break for a hand to grab the vibrato knob - it sounds like continuous playing and maybe vibrato was activated by a foot switch to a guitar amp or I don't know if they were messing with effects on the mix end of it / punching recording.  My feeling after hearing it at this point, Ray isn't grabbing the silvertop vibrato knob if he's playing live.  Which is highly interesting to me.  So it's room for argument on the 1970 stage thing.  Can't say for certain either way.

[The Real MC]

Did the early stage pianos have the square resonators or twisted flat ones?

[David Ell]

 Twisted flat bars for '70. 
I worked on two '70's in the last 6 months and they sure didn't have that marimba sound in the middle of the keyboard. I have seen many '70's and none had that sound. In the treble yes, or more so. But not that funky wooden thunk. The two '69's I owned didn't have that marimba sound. But the first '69 I had was loaded with 47 dead tines. They had a sound somewhat like what we hear.
It could be a '70 with dead tines or a '70 with an older harp. But it usually went the other way around: An older harp with non tapered raymacs was replaced with a harp with tapered tines later. I have seen several Buzz Watson mods where that was done. It could be a '70 that "just sounded" that way. But at this point I could just be muddying the waters. I guess the other band members might remember.
Whatever the case may be, it's a great sound. I would love to have a '70 with that marimba sound.
 

[Student Rhodes]

I will note though - at 1:35 when the vibrato kicks in, I feel both hands are playing and there isn't a break for a hand to grab the vibrato knob - it sounds like continuous playing and maybe vibrato was activated by a foot switch to a guitar amp

Notice in the shot, there's a vinyl bag for some kind of Gibson pedal (Just as you can see the Vox vinyl bag for the wah wah on top of the Wurli).  Perhaps there was some kind of Gibson/Maestro vibrato pedal in the signal chain.

[David Ell]

 It's the wooden marimba sound in the midrange that threw me. I had a sparkle top that sounded just like that. I hear felt, raymacs and mono vibrato. But there is something about that marimba sound that gets me. It's a sound like tines aren't flexing very much. It could very well be that '70. If it is, I want that same set up.
I just did a '70 (with my pre amp) into a twin and it was awesome. Only the twin didn't have JBL's. That could be why the highs sound so sweet. 

[pianotuner steveo]

Alan, I am talking about the way the Rhodes sounds for the left hand part, not the bass guitar. It sounds like it is mixed lower to me.

[The Real MC]

My '67 sparkletop sounds an awful lot like ROTS.  Amplitude envelope, timbre, dynamic attack unique to Raymacs with square resonators.  I've owned enough later Rhodes pianos to know the difference.

If you look at the pics of those "sessions", it looks more like a rehearsal space than a recording room.  Scant isolation, very close proximity to neighboring musicians, and microphones more suited for stage not recording studios.  That stage piano may had been for rehearsal purposes.

[Alan Lenhoff]

If you look at the pics of those "sessions", it looks more like a rehearsal space than a recording room.  Scant isolation, very close proximity to neighboring musicians, and microphones more suited for stage not recording studios.  That stage piano may had been for rehearsal purposes.

Good eye. It wasn't a studio.  But it was where the album was recorded.  From a Robbie Kreiger interview:

"Well, because [producer] Paul Rothchild didn't want to be involved, we ended up saying, "Hey, let's just do this ourselves." And I think it was Bruce who had the idea of doing it at our rehearsal space rather than having to be under the gun of a big-money recording studio. So that sounded like a good idea. Bruce wanted to make it as natural and comfortable as possible for us, and that really worked. We knew the sound of that place from rehearsing in it all the time, and Jim loved the sound he got in the bathroom, singing-wise."

If you look at some of the photos, you'll see a couple of things you don't normally see in studios:  a jukebox and a pinball machine.

Alan

[The Real MC]

And the mystery deepens...

[Alan Lenhoff]

And the mystery deepens...

After we solve this, we can move on to investigate what really happened to Jim Morrison in Paris.  ;-)

[David Ell]

It's sounding more like a twin to me now. Is that the spring reverb I hear? Could it be that the hard marimba sound in the midrange is just a combination of double strike plus damper kiss? It reminds me of how a fork sounds when you put your finger on the tone bar. Damper kiss and double strike sound like that. He is slamming those keys. 

[ForkintheRhodes]

Well what I can make out from what I hear during the solo is that you can hear the low end of the Rhodes playing the bassline, it's not a bass guitar. HOWEVER, in the beginning and during the verses he doesn't sound like he's playing a bassline. I don't see why he would play the Rhodes Piano Bass, just because it's one more thing to mike and it wouldn't sound as crisp on record as a bass guitar, hence Jerry Scheff on bass and a bassist on almost every studio track they did (except for "The End" and "When the Music's Over" where it's clearly a Rhodes bass. BUT, on the first album you can hear both Rhodes bass and bass guitar. The Rhodes has more of that groaning sound, and the bass guitar has more of that clicking, staccato sound. Prime example of that is "Soul Kitchen", it's a nice counterpoint.) Besides, putting a Rhodes bass on top of a Rhodes isn't like putting one on a Vox or Gibson organ, it's much higher up and kind of cumbersome. He probably just did the bassline in the Riders solo so he could have something to do with the left hand. Towards the mid-range the marimba sound comes out, but in the low end it's a pretty run of the mill low end Rhodes sound to me. BUT, the sound in general in the isolation sounds like it's hugging the high end, very treble-y, and the Rhodes in the photos doesn't have Janus controls, they probably did that with a Fender Twin and did the vibrato on the Rhodes itself. It sounds like it's tube drive to me in the solo when he hits the tines really hard, but I could be wrong.

[Ben Bove]

Yes on this version here he definitely didn't use a piano bass - 4:15ish when the solo ends and vibrato comes on, it's on both left and right hands.

Splitting hairs, the other fuel for the 1970 fire, is at 1:26 - the bass octaves don't sound like they came from a silvertop.

I know someone that has a 1970 original stage felt tips, maybe we can do a little experiment for kicks - silvertop vs. 1970 stage / twin.

[pianotuner steveo]

I wasn't that serious about him using the piano bass on top of the Rhodes, I just meant it was a possibile scenario.  Good catch Ben, on the vibrato around 4:15.  Didn't notice that before.

[The Real MC]

Here's something interesting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAP-EIs3AWo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFpuMFlKXjY

An early 1968 silvertop with Peterson preamp.  You can hear the stereo tremolo.  The ROTS descending lick is demonstrated in the 1st video.  You can hear how the Peterson preamp sounds cleaner and different from the Jordan preamp.

[David Ell]

A '70 sounds out of this world with my pre amp. I recently did one and could not stop playing it. Remove the mud with the pre amp and it's sounds like a hopped up Wurly, only better.

[ummagumma]

 I have been trying to figure out the bass signal in this isolated recording: at first I thought it was just room bleed, or maybe he dubbed the bass seperately...it almost sounds like a different instrument compared to the right hand, since the level is drastically lower

  *edit* I just realized Ray is not playing bass at all, until 1 minute. but you CAN hear the bleed from the bass guitar up until then. afterwards you have the bass gtr bleed plus Ray's left hand

but at 3:14 & 4:06 he hits a bass note that is almost as loud as the lead. So I think Ray was just playing the left hand much quieter than the right

if they had an 8 track I doubt they would have split up the keys

  if vibrato was a footswitch, and that Fender amp is down by his feet, I'd think you might hear the click?

I hear vibrato from the beginning of the track until 1 min. then it turns off

and at 1:35 it sure kicks up! must have been a footwitch. then 1:58 switches off again. or maybe when they mixed it later on they added something?

[Alan Lenhoff]

The Rhodes chapter I wrote in "Classic Keys" tells who played bass on a number of Doors recordings (some are bass guitarists, some were done by Ray, and some had both).  This was mostly based on an interview with Robby Krieger, and supports what you are hearing: Light My Fire has both bass guitar (Larry Knechtel) and left hand bass.

The volume differences you noted of the left hand bass versus the lead may have resulted from Ray playing his bass lines on a Piano Bass, rather than playing the bass in the low register of the 73.  Stop me if I'm telling you something you already know, but the tone filter circuit on the name rail of a Piano Bass removes upper harmonics, creating a rounder, more mellow and fundamental tone than what you'd hear on a 73.  Bass played on a 73 is not nearly as effective.  (Although they both would sound identical if you took the signal from each instrument off its harp, bypassing its name rail.) I don't know which instrument Ray used for his bass lines on that song, but generally there would be a good reason to use the Piano Bass if you had both instruments available.

Alan

[ummagumma]

hmm, possible, but it doesn't sound like a piano bass to me: it has the fuller sound of a regular MKI to my ears?

especially check out the 2 loud notes at 3:14 & 4:06 in that isolated track

[Alan Lenhoff]

Even after listening to the track carefully -- and firing up my Piano Bass and my 73 -- I'll stick with my prior statement: "I don't know which instrument Ray used."  What makes the comparison most difficult for me is that my '72 Piano Bass with neoprene hammer tips doesn't sound like the '60's-vintage bass Ray typically used, probably with square tone bars and felt hammer tips.

For what it's worth, a friend of mine plays keyboards in Robby Krieger's band, and plays Ray's parts note-for-note. He says what he hears on ROTS is Ray playing the bass line on a Piano Bass, but an octave higher than the bass guitar to keep the bottom end from being muddy.  Is he right?  Well, he's got a great ear, but the recording was done decades before he was born, so he was hardly a witness.  So who can say?

Alan

[ummagumma]

 ha! well it is interesting to speculate!

why don't you ask your friend, to ask Robby what he remembers?

a piano bass would be conspicuous on top of the MKI, especially as it's not in any of the pictures of the sessions in their LA workplace

actually, I've always wondered where Robby's gtr amp was, as I think the amp by Jim's feet was a vocal monitor? maybe Robby had it in the other room? there is a darker Fender amp against the wall, but the other gtr player was plugged into it. and I saw an unused Twin beside the drum kit, against the wall on Ray's side

[ummagumma]

 another thing: I don't think the amp Ray used was a twin. it looks too tall to me, and the top speakers are side-by-side. so I think it's a 4x10 silver face Fender amp? SF twins had the speakers mounted diagonally

*edit* I guess I am wrong about that! the amp by Jim's feet is a twin and the speakers are side-by-side. weird my '73 SF twin was diagonal

[Eminor]

This isn't an isolated track but an interesting outtake (take 10) form the ROTS recording session. There's a few minutes of tuning and jamming at the beginning - maybe your ears can pick up a clue somewhere in there....?   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1z3lZC4NUpI

Also, some cool pics of the LA Woman sessions accompany the audio.

Chris

[pianotuner steveo]

If you look at the pics with the outtakes you can see it is definitely a stage piano. In at least one picture you can see the Wurlitzer that he used on a couple of tracks. (Queen of the Highway, I think?) and at least one track "Eye of the Storm" on Other Voices (post Morrison)

[ummagumma]

 Eminor, thx for posting that outtake!

and based on the photos, we can deduce the trem was the from Fender Twin & not the Rhodes, as a MK1 stage doesn't have trem

if he *was* playing a piano bass, it must have been plugged into the twin along with the MK1, as the trem syncs up right/left hand

and that twin by Jim's feet might have been Robby's, miked from behind? I don't see a mic in front of it

of course, I am assuming that the pics are depicting the setup they used, for this particular song: quite possibly they moved things around, and we don't have any photos of the actual recording in question

[ummagumma]

Saw an interview with Bruce Botnick, who says the Rhodes was recorded DI into the mixing console

He even isolates a few seconds of it from a mixing board

It's in the "mr mojo risin' " documentary

[ummagumma]

I am wondering if they took a DI out of the Twin Reverb?

Otherwise how did Ray get the trem on & off?

It would also explain the lack of footswitch noise, that surely would have been picked up, if that Twin had been miked

[ummagumma]

Haha, then he goes on to say:

"He wasn't playing through an amplifier"

So there goes that theory 

He must have had a vibrato footpedal though, as the rail on the MKI in those shots is stock

[ummagumma]

Thinking about this: Ray must have been playing through an amplifier, how else could the band hear what he was doing?

I don't see any monitor headphones and I doubt they had return lines from the 8 track running back into a monitor

So I bet they took a DI off the twin reverb. Although there is clearly a mic on the twin, you can see the stand in the pics