Introduction / 1st time Rhodes (mk1) owner

[psr]

Hi everyone... I am a first time Rhodes owner. Just bought it off of ebay. its in route so I havent put hands on it in person yet. The seller says it has 5 keys that "dont spring back up when pressed" (aka famed MK1 sticky keys) but he says it plays well otherwise. I can see from the pics that the tolex is in bad shape so I will likely replace it to spiff it up. I really think thats the issue with the 5 keys. if not I will make a project out of figuring it out since i got a good deal.

also i need a sustain pedal. maybe down the line i will buy the "Vintage Fender Rhodes Stage Piano Tine Bomb Pre Amp" since i will use in studio environment i think the extra gain boost and tube goodness will work great for me. too i want a flat top so i can make use of the top of the Rhodes for my MPC and effects pedals.

anyways its great to finally own one. cant wait until it arrives. if any of you have any good advise for a newbie rhodes owner feel free to throw it my way.

[pianotuner steveo]

Welcome to the forum!

If the 5 sticky keys are all white keys, check for loose tolex rubbing at the fronts of the keys.

Otherwise the next most likely cause are key bushings that may need easing, and lubing the guide pins. The front rail pins are oblong and could be turned, which can cause sticking also.

Let us know what you find.

[psr]

Thanks Pianotuner Steveo
I appreciate the advice. I will keep you posted. I kind of hope its the Tolex but at least if not I have some good leads now on what it could be.

have you any experience with the VV Tine Bomb Pre Amp upgrade?

[pianotuner steveo]

No, I do not have experience with those. I only work on a couple of Rhodes per year. There's not much call for EP service around here.

[David Aubke]

There are a few discussions of the Tine Bomb on the forum including its introduction by Chris Carroll.

I installed one on a Fifty Four and wrote about the process.

[David Ell]

 I make a 4 knob pre amp with bass and treble plus eq and volume boost. I don't hype it much but it makes a Rhodes sound great. It takes about 10 minuets to install and there is no soldering or wire cutting. Just remove the old volume and bass boost knobs a pop in the new pre amp. Boom, no more muddy sounding Rhodes. It will work in any 73 or 88 key model.

[Student Rhodes]

I make a 4 knob pre amp with bass and treble plus eq and volume boost. I don't hype it much but it makes a Rhodes sound great.

David,
Do you have a link for a demo of this pre-amp?

[psr]

David Ell any demos? Whats your mod cost compared to the tine bomb?

BTW Thanks so much for the info guys. still awaiting my Rhodes. Looking forward to its arrival i'm certain I'll be looking to mod with preamp of some sort. I want the the best sound out possible.

[David Ell]

Demos in the near future of my pre amp. It costs 195$ but anyone here gets it for 185$. You have not fully heard your Stage Rhodes until the mud is removed. It's wonderful. The original sound can still be had if needed.

[psr]

Demos in the near future of my pre amp.

Thanks looking forward to it.

[Abraham]

Trash your MPC, this would make your rhodes sound better     

Welcome aboard!

[psr]

Trash your MPC, this would make your rhodes sound better     

Welcome aboard!

oh man... no not the mpc...

Thanks for the welcome. Abraham.

[psr]

Uh ohh... what a project. A lot of the keys are seemingly misaligned or something so you can not press down on them. they will not move. According to the seller only 5 keys had an issue. I wonder if it got banged around in shipping knocking some keys out of line. I will upload pics of it shortly. id love any advise on how bad off it is.

[psr]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/83995262@N05/sets/72157634956705631/

Here are pics of my rhodes... worth restoring. seem possible?

[Abraham]

Seems like a good one... Worth the hassle for sure

[psr]

Really? I just had a rhodes repair guy say (from the looks of the pics) it is in very poor condition and wouldnt cost less than $1000 for repair if at all possible. sounds kind of wild to me.

So do you think this is something worth taking on myself. I'm a pretty handy guy. but if not I can certainly return for a refund and search for something in better condition. 

[martin]

it looks ok, you just need to put the hammers back, they should clip back in. you need to level the keys with paper pushings from vintage vibe, and maybe new hammer tips. wouldnt cost more then $200 to sort it out. you can take all the keys out and out them back in straight. the early mark ones are better as well.

[pianotuner steveo]

No, this would not cost that much (meaning $1,000) to repair. Not sure why someone quoted that much, unless he was trying to discourage you then talk you into selling it to him.

The Rhodes is one of the easiest musical instruments for anyone to do at least basic repairs on. You can get plenty of info right here on this forum.

[Abraham]

Rhodes action is quite simple, you can figure out things for yourself, I never said its going to be easy or cheap but it seems like an early one... hybrid hammers, wooden harp supports, fully skirted keycaps.... If I ever find one of those I'll do my best to get it fixed. After all, fixing such things yourself is what this forum is all about

Needless to say, if seller lied about the piano condition go and set a claim, ebay usually protects the buyer

How much did him charge for the rhodes?

[psr]

it looks ok, you just need to put the hammers back, they should clip back in. you need to level the keys with paper pushings from vintage vibe, and maybe new hammer tips. wouldnt cost more then $200 to sort it out. you can take all the keys out and out them back in straight. the early mark ones are better as well.

Thanks Martin. great advise. are these the "paper pushings" that you speak of http://www.vintagevibe.com/p-403-key-shims.aspx ?

I just watched Vintage Vibes "Fender Rhodes Full Refurb Kit" VIDEO and looks like you are spot on. under $200 and a bit of time in installing everything and it should be as good as new. looks relatively simple to do.

[psr]

Rhodes action is quite simple, you can figure out things for yourself, I never said its going to be easy or cheap but it seems like an early one... hybrid hammers, wooden harp supports, fully skirted keycaps.... If I ever find one of those I'll do my best to get it fixed. After all, fixing such things yourself is what this forum is all about

Needless to say, if seller lied about the piano condition go and set a claim, ebay usually protects the buyer

How much did him charge for the rhodes?

the rhodes was $450. After a bit of research today I think I will keep it and refurb it. seems easy enough

[vanceinatlance]

I had a 1972 stage very similar to your Rhodes, and I regret very much selling it. I would vote for taking the time to bring it to life. I would be extremely surprised if you were disappointed after you invested some time and a little money in it. You have resources at this site that you will simply not find available for other instruments. Rebuilding your Rhodes will enable you to make it perform feel and sound just the way you would like it to.

Just saw you post your keeping it, I don't think you will regret it.

[David Ell]

There is repair, restoration and then tech if you know what I mean. On one hand, simple repair is possible by almost anyone. Getting the best out of it takes much time. Anyone one who thinks otherwise is wrong. Each Rhodes is firing differently, yet all have the same basic parts. Solving problems is another level. 
Imagine if you worked on around 400 Rhodes, most of these more than once, so around 700 give or take. You would see that what works on one Rhodes won't work on another. It's not as straight forward as one might think. A Rhodes is only as good as the tech that worked on it. This is law. I myself still have a lot to learn.
I am not saying he can't do a good job, not at all. He should do well. But let's not get carried away and think that not taking it to a tech would be the best for the Rhodes. My first advice would be take it to a real Rhodes piano tech. Now, not getting ripped off, don't get me started.

[psr]

Good point David Ell... Point well made. but i am up for the challenge and if all else fails i can seek a good repair person at some point.

This forum is great... I realigned the keys and now that I've done my research i can see that this will be pretty easy. seems to work fine. 3 Hammers will not click back in so i will need to buy 3 new ones and new sets of tips and felts.
http://instagram.com/p/csh5NlJlys/ 

[David Ell]

 Only Three hammers? Check each of the 73. Some knife edges might be rounded. 20 years ago we didn't see much of this. Now I am starting to see it. It has to do with how much it's been played. Double striking can sometimes be traced back to the cam, not just the felt and escapement etc.
Check the ends of the tines for tell tale jagged edges that might indicate replacement tines. Who knows if all are of the correct vintage? If so, you scored big time. I know of a '74 about 10 hours from here and I am wanting it, but it's loaded with later replacement tines. A few I could stand, but lots of them no way. Good luck and have fun. You got a vintage Fender Rhodes!

[David Ell]

 There is nothing wrong with bringing it to a tech at some point other than thinking you will save money. Many times I have spent a entire day undoing what someone else has done, just to get to the point where I can start what I need to do. Getting advice on a forum can help but only a real Rhodes tech would know if your Rhodes is all it can be. Notice I used the word "real".

[Student Rhodes]

You've got yourself an early '71 with the color coded tips!

To me, they don't look that bad. If they're not too crystalized, they can be trimmed back to workable rubber. 

Hammers, and keys are readily available on Feebay and elsewhere.  I saw an auction a few days ago for an entire set of hammers from your era for something like 65 bucks.  You could replace the few you need, then sell off the rest.

Keys are available, but fit isn't guaranteed as each keyset was custom cut for each piano.  However, I had luck having a tech replace some Pratt-Reed key caps on a few gouged keys on my 72 Stage Model.  I think he used a heat gun to soften the glue and pry them off.

The main thing with these older pianos is the condition of the tines.   Rust is the killer.  Surface rust is workable.  Not sure if it's the preferred method, but I removed each of mine and hit them with a scuff pad. However, if the rust makes its way into the tone block where the wire is attached, it's game over for that tine.

This is a very desirable Rhodes, but there's no doubt it's going to need many hours to get it up and running -- tips, felts, aligning, leveling, tuning, voicing, cleaning, repairs (hammers, keys, electronics etc.)  And that's just for functionality.  If you toss in any bump mods, re-tolexing or hardware, I could see this getting near a grand, depending on your tech's shop rate.   But as others have told you, if you're handy or willing, much of this stuff can be done by you. 

If the tines are in good shape, this thing was worth $450, in my opinion.

Good luck,
Ray

[psr]

So David... I notice as I learn these hammers are the half wood half plastic sort and it seems that later models had all plastic hammers. Does it make a different to the sound in buying new replacements even if they are the half and half and half ones? would it make more sense to buy vintage half and half hammers from ebay or something?

I will check the tines too. I do notice that some are more silverish where the others are more brass like. but i have not check for curved edges and so on.

[David Ell]

I didn't know there were "new" replacements. I know the older ones work for replacing. I have them. You probably have Raymac tines and that's a good thing. Such a phat tone.

[psr]

I didn't know there were "new" replacements. I know the older ones work for replacing. I have them. You probably have Raymac tines and that's a good thing. Such a phat tone.

Oh cool good to know about the tines. Yes vintage vibes makes new replacement hammers that are half wood half plastic like the ones in my rhodes.

Welcome to the forum!

If the 5 sticky keys are all white keys, check for loose tolex rubbing at the fronts of the keys.

Otherwise the next most likely cause are key bushings that may need easing, and lubing the guide pins. The front rail pins are oblong and could be turned, which can cause sticking also.

Let us know what you find.

So I now know that the keys the sell mentioned are the ones (3 of them) that have bad hammers. But there are 2 that seem stiff. I guess I will check out the key bushings and guide pins

[David Ell]

Right, I knew about vintage vibe hammers. One of the main things about those older Rhodes was the hammer throw. It was all over the map.

[psr]

cleaning and inspecting each of the 73 keys last night. I'm about half way thru. As I inspect I am making notes of my finding for each key according to the number.

I found that two keys are stiff and will not spring back up. I read that something like this "Micro-Fine PTFE Powder" on the guide pins will help that out. Also still only 3 hammers broken that will not clip back into place. Still deciding if I will try to buy some original ones from ebay or just buy the new ones from VV. Also found that middle C was ringing or sustaining long after it was played. Tighten the one of the harp screws for that key just a bit until it was level with the ones near it and that seems to have taken care of that.

I find myself eager to get home to my Rhodes... and i'm just getting started.

[David Aubke]

If the keys are so stiff they won't return, I doubt lube is going to be the solution. If they're really getting hung up on the guide pins, you may be able to get by with just easing (widening) the bushing felt.

You need to determine exactly where the binding is occurring since there are several potential trouble spots, each with their own solution.

[psr]

If the keys are so stiff they won't return, I doubt lube is going to be the solution. If they're really getting hung up on the guide pins, you may be able to get by with just easing (widening) the bushing felt.

You need to determine exactly where the binding is occurring since there are several potential trouble spots, each with their own solution.

Thanks David A. good stuff. i will take a closer look to determine the source of the issue.

[David Ell]

 Always try food grade silicone in an eye dropper dribbled down the guide pin first. Make sure the felt comes into contact with the lube. If it works then there is no need to widen the bushings. You want those bushings as tight as possible without binding. If you need to widen them so be it.

[psr]

the key bushing / felt  was bunching up stopping the 2 keys from moving properly. I tried to flatten it out but I ended up having to clip away a tiny portion of the rubbed out felt. not to mention a couple keys have some bushing missing. I will have to count on buying the keybushing kit fro VV as well.

[psr]

The main thing with these older pianos is the condition of the tines.   Rust is the killer.  Surface rust is workable.  Not sure if it's the preferred method, but I removed each of mine and hit them with a scuff pad. However, if the rust makes its way into the tone block where the wire is attached, it's game over for that tine.

If the tines are in good shape, this thing was worth $450, in my opinion.

Good luck,
Ray

Ray,
I'm going to take a closer look at the tines this weekend. at first glance it looks like there may be some rust on a few of them. I'm hoping not many of them have it and that its only surface rust. Is a scuff pad the best option for caring for rusted tines?

[LeonSpinks]

The main thing with these older pianos is the condition of the tines.   Rust is the killer.  Surface rust is workable.  Not sure if it's the preferred method, but I removed each of mine and hit them with a scuff pad. However, if the rust makes its way into the tone block where the wire is attached, it's game over for that tine.

If the tines are in good shape, this thing was worth $450, in my opinion.

Good luck,
Ray

Ray,
I'm going to take a closer look at the tines this weekend. at first glance it looks like there may be some rust on a few of them. I'm hoping not many of them have it and that its only surface rust. Is a scuff pad the best option for caring for rusted tines?

Vintage Vibe has numerous good (albeit low-res) Rhodes repair/maintainance videos on Youtube.  They use Scotch Brite pads on the tines.

[psr]

oh boy lots of tine cleaning to do.

[voltergeist]

FYI, a MKII flat top will not work on a MKI.  The MKII nameplate rail is taller and the cutouts are taller, so the MKII cutouts end up being visible above the nameplate rail.

$1000 (labor) sounds about right to get it tip top.  Getting it playable should be a lot cheaper.  But make no mistake, there is a huge difference in tone, action, and feel between a playable Rhodes and a fully rebuilt Rhodes. 

[The Real MC]

They use Scotch Brite pads on the tines.

Works on the surface, but if rust has permeated beneath the surface then those tines will sound inferior and have a shortened life.