Aluminum support blocks on late Mark 1 Rhodes. Does anyone ever convert them?

[gilded]

Hi my name is Harry. I'm a new guy to the Forum.

I have a '77 Stage 88 I'm going through and I noticed the treble-side aluminum support block threaded bolt-holes were stripped. Does that happen often? I figure it means the piano fell over in the back of a van, or something like that.

Before I search for a new-used one, does anybody ever change the support blocks back to hard maple?

Finally, anybody know where I can find a treble support block?

Thanks, Harry in Texas

[Alan Lenhoff]

Sure you want/need to replace it?  There are lots of ways to repair damaged threads.  Here's one:  http://www.helicoil.com.sg/HeliCoil-Installation-Instructions.shtml

If you don't feel like you can do the job yourself, find a machinist, an auto repair shop -- even a good bike repair shop.  It should be an easy, inexpensive repair.

Alan

[gilded]

Alen,

Thanks for the advice. I'll call some of my car buddies and see if I can get a reference to a good machine shop.

[Ben Bove]

The other suggestion I would have - if you can't find someone to go through all of that with you, simply buy a nut and bolt maybe with a nylon lock, similar to how the harp is bolted to the swivel bracket.  That way regardless if the receptacle is stripped, you're bolted in.

[David Aubke]

Swap the bass and treble supports. They're both the same except that the holes for the harp bolts are located differently. You'll have to drill and tap new holes on both supports but you won't have to worry about repairing damaged threads.

Or, drill out the holes and use a nut on the underside.

[The Real MC]

Swap the bass and treble supports. They're both the same except that the holes for the harp bolts are located differently.

No they are not the same.  They are different heights.  The height difference is responsible for the even tone across the piano and was deployed after the sparkletop era.

The mounting holes for the harp are different for a reason.

[gilded]

It seems like the supports are both around 4 3/4" high. The piano harp dates are '1777' on the pickup side and '3x73' on the tone bar side (x is smudged).

The 88 has all plastic keys, white felt on the key cams, bare wood on the pedestal. The only other damage on piano is that some of the keys in the middle of the board have small cracks at the edges. I thought the key damage was related until I read that cracks are common in '76-'77 Rhodes Keys in an earlier thread (about 7 pages back!).

Just out of curiosity, are stripped threads on the support blocks a common or uncommon problem?

[David Aubke]

No they are not the same.  They are different heights.  The height difference is responsible for the even tone across the piano and was deployed after the sparkletop era.

The mounting holes for the harp are different for a reason.

Huh. Well, I'll double-check tonight but they sure seem identical to me. The holes for the action rail bolt and the damper hinge are factory drilled to make them interchangeable. The holes for the harp are different because the harp itself is not symmetrical, not to enforce a particular orientation.

I've swapped them several times with no problems.

[Tim W]

The aluminum extrusions are identical and can be used on either side. 

The shims on top of the aluminum extrusions may or may not be identical...

All bets are off for earlier pianos with wood supports, but shims are used on these as well, so there were probably many variants over the years.

Just make sure after you do the swap you get the correct escapement across the keyboard and shim accordingly if necessary.
Also be very careful resetting strikeline once the swap is completed.

Tim

[spradders]

Hi - just to answer your question "does this happen often" - my bolts had ripped through the bottom of the case somehow (from the outside through to the inside)!  I can only imagine someone tried to prize the harp out sometime, the bolt heads / washers must be 12 - 15mm (?) diameter which would be almost impossible to rip through!  The support block threads were ok though.

Mike.

[voltergeist]

I think it's worth noting that this repair can be done in exactly the same way as one changes the strike line (and I would check the strike line before performing this repair, btw). 

1. Position the harp
2. Drill holes the diameter of the screw shank (NOT the diameter of the threads!) through the harp and brackets
      -Use a drop of lubricant where you're going to drill the hole, and/or on the bit itself
3. Remove the harp and drill the holes out on the harp a little bit larger than the diameter of the screw threads
4. Put the harp back on
5. Drive the screws in (assuming you still have the self-tapping screws.  If they're not self-tapping screws, the threads need to be tapped prior to putting the screw in) 
        *Put a lubricant on the self-tapping screws before driving them in
        *An impact driver makes short work on driving self-tapping screws, if you happen to have one

If you did it right, you're done.  A drill and two bits is all that's needed.

[gilded]

Gentlemen,

My measurement of 4 3/4" was an approximate one, taken in haste, in the dark (by flashlight) and using a Stanley Powerlock Tape Rule! Doubtless there is a quantifiable, measurable difference in height that I did not capture with my unsubtle technique.

What I am hearing is that there is a lot more to be considered than just pulling one support block out and replacing it with another.
I am leaning towards fixing the one I have, instead of getting a replacement from the back shelves of Vintage Vibe ($40.00) or trying to turn an apple into an orange by replacing both aluminum supports with hard maple wooden blocks.

Wait, Hold Everything! Just read the last reply from Voltergeist.

Okay, I'll check the Strike Line.

Is that something I can read about from the Service Manual?

What else can I check besides the Strike Line if I find that the screw holes are stripped on the treble side aluminum block support?
Harry

[voltergeist]

Yeah, changing strike line is addressed in the service manual.

Basically you adjust the harp's position relative to the hammers to find the "sweet spot".  The aluminum support Mk1's seem to generally be poorly positioned from the factory, probably due to production volumes.  All the aluminum support Mk1's I've worked on have needed the harp repositioned.

1.  Place the harp in its original position
2.  Keep the bass end in position and move the high end incrementally while playing high notes and see where you get the best tone. 
3.  Keep the high-end in the best-tone position and adjust the bass end for best tone and response.
4.  Check the middle, and across the whole board
5.  Tweak as necessary until you get optimal tone and response across the whole keyboard
6.  Mark the position of the harp
7.  Drill and tap new holes per previous post

The service manual is slightly different, focusing mainly on the mid-range and expecting the ends to take care of themselves.  It seems to me that one gets better results by optimizing the ends and letting the middle take care of itself.

[Ben Bove]

Agreed with you on setting the strikeline - in the manual it picks specific notes to test - I think it was a C, and F etc. in different registers.  However, with the ages and history of these used pianos, often those specific notes could be replaced with improper length tines or any other of non-factory controlled variables over the life of the piano.  So unless you're painstakingly restoring a Rhodes from the ground up, measuring all tines and replacing or cutting incorrect ones, checking all hammertips for the correct hardness and height, etc. etc. the best method for me has been as you describe - setting the right side first so the upper-most note's hammer clears the tine block and gets great tone, then adjusting the bass section so that the middle register has the most optimal sound.  If you bang a chord repeatedly while moving the harp, you can very easily determine where the sweet spot is for the majority of the keyboard save probably a funky tine or two.

[Student Rhodes]

Here's a pair if support blocks for sale on ebay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Fender-Rhodes-Set-of-End-Supports-for-Harp-Board-Great-Shape-Mark-1-2-/161142311782?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2584d48b66#ht_170wt_917

Seems like a simple, cheap solution.

Ray