Hard action

[little george]

Hi, My name is Jorge, I´m from Spain.

After a long time wanting it, I finally own a Rhodes, an Stage Mark I of the year 1976 (I think). I´m loving the piano and its beautiful sound. I´m in the process of reading as much as I can, to restorate it, and make it fully playable. So, I´m afraid I´ll have a lot of question in the future for you people...

Ok, first problem I have, is the action. Is so hard that it is ridiculous. I´ve only played an electronic keyboard till now, and I believe that a rhodes will, by its own nature, be harder. But that thing is crazy. I almost can´t play a note with my pinkie.

So, I tried to see if the escapement distance was right. Without proper tools to measure it, and according to the service manual, the scapement seems to be too high. I´m not sure, because it is a difficult task to insert a rule between the tone bars, keep one key depressed, and looking sideways to read the distance.

So I tried to reduce the scapement by turning the "adjustable coil springs". I did it in middle C to middle F. That helped a lot, now these keys are easier to play. But the height of the tone bar assembly to the tone bar rail is now really short. I´m far away from the "factory setting" (3/8" or 9.52 mm) and more likeky a lowered position (3/16" or 4.76).



In this picture, you can see six of the tone bars lower than the rest, these are the ones I adjusted. They look very low, don´t they?

The service manual says you can adjust the scapement also by "adding or sustracting shims from the harp supports". What does it mean, I don´t know. But looking at the harp I noticed the particle board over the aluminium harp support is very damaged:

Right side:


Left side:



That´s probably due to lifting the harp without care. Am I right thinking this damaged particle board is the so called "shims from the harp supports"? Are these damaged boards the reason why my action is so hard? Would a slimer particle board make it easier to play the piano? If so, what should I replace it with?

One last question: As others pointed out, the action of the piano is softer when the sustain pedal is pussed, due to the relaxed bridle strap. Would I get a softer action by changing my damper arms for the ones vintage vibes offer?

Ok, that´s it for now. I know I make a lot of questions, sorry. Any help will be very wellcome

[little george]

Hemm...
Bu the way, sorry for the big pictures, I thought they would (magically) become smaller once posted...
Still, I think you can see them by pushing the mouse wheel sideways.

[camaro guy]

I'll let others with more expertise address some of your other questions, but I got the action easier on my '76 stage by removing all the keys and cleaning the posts, then putting some silicone lubricant (from Vintage Vibe) on each key after re-installation.  It may be my imagination, but it seemed like the silicone didn't have an immediate effect, but after about a week, the action seemed much better and it has stayed that way since.

Congratulations on the new Rhodes.  I waited a long time for mine as well.  You'll enjoy playing it a lot!

[Ben Bove]

Hi!  Congratulations on getting the Rhodes!

The hard action - is it all keys equally heavy, or some a lot heavier than others?  Any keys that stick?  There are 2 things I would recommend:

1) Miracle Mod bump modification
http://ep-forum.com/smf/index.php?topic=4666.0

2) Checking the escapement as you were doing - when you play softer notes in general, do they make sound or do the hammers not reach the tines?  Sometimes, you need to remove the shim on the left side of the piano entirely to lower the harp (the damaged one you pictured, you may want to remove entirely and see if that helps).  When you start adjusting escapement though, you do have to make a lot of other adjustments - the strike line, the dampers... it can be a lot to make right.  So I might suggest the bump modification first.

[little george]

Thanks for answering Camaro guy. That silicone lubricant, when I make an order to Vintage Vibes will be on top of the list.

bjammerz, the action seemed harder on the left side, and there are no sticky keys, I fixed them.
My Rhodes does already have the "miracle mod bump modification" installed. I suspect it has it from the factory, but I might be wrong. The red plastic bumps are installed just at the end of the key pedestal. My felts are in the hammers.
So as you suggested, I completly removed the left side shim. Not it as become a lot easier to play, and I´m quite happy with it. Now I think I have a little sluggish action, but I´m not going to make questions yet. First I´ll try to use the search bottom, and then, maybe I´ll be back Thanks for your help!

[voltergeist]

The mod bumps may not be installed correctly.  If they're too close to the end, the hammer may be pushing against the bump when it's trying to ascend, resulting in hard action.   

Are the hammers hybrids or all-plastic?

[Ben Bove]

The modification you describe would not be factory.  When there was felt on the hammers, there were no bumps in production. 

Voltergeist may be correct - if you feel the hammers "popping" a bit when you push them slowly, they may be too close to the end of the key pedestal.  They may need to be moved farther back.  Test maybe 5 keys - removing the bumps and gluing them farther back if it helps the action!

Glad to hear lowering the harp on the left side improved action.  If any damper felts are hitting the tines when you strike a note hard, you can bend the damper felt arms down a bit.

[little george]

Hi, I just wanted to share how things are going
After removing the left side shim, i used a lubricant with teflon on the hammer felts and keypins. Lubricating the felts was quite hard. I did it with a simple toothbrush, full of lubricant. I can happily say that my action is now much faster.

To answer to bjammerz and bjammerz, you are probably right, the mod bumps probably were not factory installed. But since the felts have now developed "gapes" where the bumps are, and it doesn´t feel like much double striking is happening at all, I will leave them as they are for now.

I also used adhesive tape over the key pedestals as somebody suggested here in the forum, and I think it also helped to make things go faster. As an experiment, I cuted some delrin picks of 0.46 and installed them in some keys. Delrin is very smooth, and self lubricated. I used Jim Dunlop picks, 0.46 thick. These keys work very fast, but the dinamics become affected, strong playing does not sound nice...

Thanks again everybody

[voltergeist]

But since the felts have now developed "gapes" where the bumps are, and it doesn´t feel like much double striking is happening at all, I will leave them as they are for now.

What do you mean by "gapes"?

As an experiment, I cuted some delrin picks of 0.46 and installed them in some keys. Delrin is very smooth, and self lubricated. I used Jim Dunlop picks, 0.46 thick. These keys work very fast, but the dinamics become affected, strong playing does not sound nice...

I don't understand what you're saying here.  Where did you put the Delrin on the keys, and why?

[little george]

I´m quite tired lately, so my english is even worst than usual 

Sorry, once again giant pics:

In this one you can see the first and second felts in the hammers have get deformed by the bumps (I referred to this as gapes, maybe grooves is the proper english word?). Also the guitar picks in the key pedestals, behind the bumps:



Detail of a guitar pick added to a key pedestal, beside one undamaged pick





Why did I made this? I thought that a smooth surface on the key pedestals would improve the action. I had those picks laying around, so I become a mad scientific The delrin really improved the action, but as I said, the dinamics are wrong now on these keys. Simple tape over the key pedestals works just right.

[voltergeist]

Ok, now it makes sense.  I suppose that would reduce friction.  I always put the felt on the pedestal, so the contact is felt/plastic instead of wood/felt.  I also check the contact surface of the hammers for smoothness.

[Ben Bove]

An interesting choice of modification

My thought is the thickness of the guitar pic, might reduce the effectiveness of the bump.

Can you take a photo from the side - hammer down, then hammer up when you push a key?  thanks

[little george]

Sorry Bjammerz, I tried to take this picture for you, but I couldn´t get the proper angle
I agree with you about the thick of the pick reducing the effect of the bump.

[The Real MC]

THOSE PEDESTALS ALREADY HAVE THE BUMP MODIFICATION

If you removed the felt on the hammer cams and applied new felt on the pedestals, I bet the action would get a LOT better.  The bump gets you halfway there.

[pianotuner steveo]

....and the bumps look like they are too close to the pedestal edge.

[little george]

The Real MC, you are probably right, and I plan to doing so in the future. But right now I´m taking time from some other important things, to put my rhodes in good shape. Ungluing the hammer felts, and gluing new felt in the key pedestals sounds like a pretty time comsuming task. I´ll do it but in the future.
Pianotuner Steveo, I agree with you these bumps are simply at the edge, not in the ideal point at all. I plan changing their location, but I´ll wait and do it all at the same time. Right now I´m cleaning the tines, giving the same scapement, volume and tone to all the keys, and then tuning. Things are going nice but slow.

Thanks to everybody for your helpfull advices