What era of tine do the Vintage Vibe tines sound like? and more...!

[goldphinga]

Firstly, just wanted to ask anybody thats used the current vintage vibe tines what era they best compare to sound wise?

What is also concerning me is that you can't really have a one size fits all tine in, as much as how can you put one of these tines into a post '75 piano if they sound like a pre '75 tine?

So! How are people getting a consistent mix of tone in their pianos if tine eras are getting mixed up and old tines and new tines don't sound alike?

Insight and thoughts much appreciated

[BerneseMtnDog]

I had to buy quite a few of the VV tines for my 1975 stage in the midrange, high traffic area.  They're very similar sounding to the originals in my piano.  Slightly thicker tone but they can be adjusted to sound just like my originals.  I like them.

Steve

[The Real MC]

VV acquired the original machine from Torrington, so the tines will sound like the early 70s tines.  Good stuff.

[goldphinga]

I have torringtons in my '72 and love the tone but I don't think they would sit well in a post 75' piano. I hate mixing eras of tines and as we all know there are big differences between raymac, torringtons, schallers and singers. So how is everyone getting around this issue?

[Max Brink]

I have torringtons in my '72 and love the tone but I don't think they would sit well in a post 75' piano. I hate mixing eras of tines and as we all know there are big differences between raymac, torringtons, schallers and singers. So how is everyone getting around this issue?

I hear you. I wish there was a better way but I keep an organ donor from each of the time periods to make sure that the tines have the correct timbre. Typically something cheap will come up on craigslist that is already missing parts or beyond a reasonable restoration point. Usually these come from someone who once had the 'buy two and have one that works' mentality... I try to make sure that every piece of the donor is used so that it is not wasteful but this would probably be harder to do as a small shop or DIY tech.

[Ben Bove]

The best advice would be only to drop in tines and test to see.  The problem is a number of pianos from any era, especially early pianos with higher breakage, it's very difficult to see exactly if they're torringtons or if some were already broken in the past and replaced with schallers.  On top of that, it's more of the quality of the production run.  For example, I came across a piano that had correct-length tines, however the tuning springs were nearly halfway up the tine to make it in tune.  This dramatically and surprisingly changed the tone compared to tines where the spring sits much closer to the end of the tine.  So even at that point, it wouldn't matter Torrington or Schaller - something was going on with that batch of production tines.  So... I think it would be more test-and-see if you had access to enough tines to try out.

[8675309]

VV acquired the original machine from Torrington, so the tines will sound like the early 70s tines.  Good stuff.

So if one purchases the chisels Stradivarius used, they can then create stradivarius violins?

Wire swaging machines are very common and widely used to make anything from a bicycle spoke to wire rigging among many other common products.
A more accurate description of how a tine sounds should be in relation to its metallurgical composition & profile.
Rhodes tines were made on wire swaging machines, you could have all the tooling/machines in the world, same that Rhodes/Fender had, but if your recipe for the material itself isn't proper/correct you don't get the same sound of whatever era your attempting to replicate "results may vary..". No different than a stainless guitar string vs a bronze or nickel, yea they all sound like a guitar string from a core/fundamental standpoint but have tonal difference. Look at the tonal differences between a Raymac, Torrington, Singer or a schaller tine, yet they are all swaged, the difference was the material, some ring/sustain great, some are too bright, some snapped... Its the material composition, not the machine.

[Mark S 1]

Excellent point.

Unfortunately the only options for tines today are:

1. pull them from a donor (or buy them from a place that sells pulled tines)
2. buy new ones from VV
3. Improvise and try to make your own

While the idea of using stainless steel butted bicycle spokes is intriguing (might have to try that one day), rolling your own is probably impractical for most of us, which leaves VV the only game in town for new tines. So the OP's question is very pertinent - in what era Rhodes do VV tines work well and in what era(s) do they fail to blend? I could see this being register dependent as well. I'd be interested in hearing more reports from people who have tried them.

[8675309]

Yes, the replacement options are limited- BUT luckily Ebay seems to have a consistent amount of original tines for sale at all times. Generally speaking replacing a tine for any reason other than its defective or broken serves no function.  Not to state the obvious!

And by no way was I suggesting using a bicycle spoke as a tine! I merely used the spoke as a reference to one of the many things made by a wire swaging machine.
A spoke would probably not work out too well

[Max Brink]

Interesting points on the swaging. It would be a hell of a lot of fun to test different metallurgical compositions and the taper of the tine!

Ebay seems to have a consistent amount of original tines for sale at all times

One of these guys is a company called "Vintage Parts Guru" who parts out Rhodes in any condition as long as it's profitable. These guys are just outside of Chicago and have beat me to a few really nice pianos that by their owners descriptions and photos would have been great Rhodes with very little restoration work needed... I understand that every Rhodes cannot be fully restored and that the parts will help other pianos but it's an entirely different situation to just start parting out a perfectly good piano just to turn a few bucks!

[8675309]

its understandable to dislike their business methods, Dumping good pianos for parts is a sin- 

Thankfully there are plenty of Rhodes to go around
and in all fairness a great deal of them are beat to hell!!!
Whats sad is when folks take good pianos, gut them, replace all the parts with aftermarket stuff and 86 the original stuff which in some cases is probably still good stuff!

[Max Brink]

Whats sad is when folks take good pianos, gut them, replace all the parts with aftermarket stuff and 86 the original stuff which in some cases is probably still good stuff!

Amen to that as well. --And to add to that I can't tell you how often I see poor quality parts that are installed incorrectly. Many times I have seen people go as far as completely destroying parts the instrument. A few months ago I had a client who at the suggestion of a youtube video took a dremel tool to his hammer tips and completely rounded off the hammer platform. He completely destroyed more than 70% of his hammers! The funny thing was that he brought me the bag of the used cube hammer tips thinking I may want them and I ended up re installing 90% of them onto the new hammer arms that I replaced from an organ donor.

I can't imagine how much time and money he would have saved if he would have just taken it to my workshop rather than try to replace hundreds of parts without any direction of what he was doing!

[squarebubble]

Has anyone actually approached VV and asked them if they are made using the same metallurgical composition as the originals?

[Mark S 1]

And by no way was I suggesting using a bicycle spoke as a tine! I merely used the spoke as a reference to one of the many things made by a wire swaging machine.
A spoke would probably not work out too well

understood - but it was a very intriguing thought. They are swagged metal, and you can probably find butted spokes that are of the correct gauge and tapper. I'd be surprised if they made a good tine, but you never know! Stranger discoveries have been made....

[goldphinga]

So VV likely had the Torrington era tine metallurgy checked out then to get the tone right? Surely then they could analyse the other eras and make tines for the different years/models...

This would be amazing!

[squarebubble]

I think this thread answers the original question:

http://ep-forum.com/smf/index.php?topic=6440.0