Pickup/Tine distance dictated by lower notes

[GaryRhodes]

I am at the end of the road in sorting my 1977 Mk1 Stage. Its taken months of an hour or so a day!

In relation to pickup distance to tine. I find I can only go so far in on the bass before it starts pitching sharp under sustain. This then dictates the level to match up the rest of the keyboard.

I realise this is due to magnetic pull in the same way as guitar pickups/strings.

Some people may use the bass sector in a very staccato way and may not see the pitch going sharp under sustain, but would you guys agree that the gain by tine/pickup distance is set by how close you can get the bass end without it pulling sharp?

[The Real MC]

It depends.

If a piano is light or heavy on a certain frequency range, I usually look into a different amp, speakers, or cabinet.  Especially speakers and cabinets, they can vary all over the map.   Not all speakers - even 15s - put out good bass.  Open back cabinets tend to be weak in bass range.  These issues can't always be fixed by EQ.  Your problem may be exaggerated by either or both of these thus overcompensating by pickup position.  Try a different amp system that pumps better bass, then you can back off the pickups and reduce the pitch being pulled sharp.

[GaryRhodes]

I think you may have misinterpreted what I was saying.

I am not actually using any output speakers aside from a pair of headphones. This is purely using a strobe tuner. What I'm saying is that I set the bass register as close as I can without pitch going sharp. I will make a note of the peak indicator on the graphic VU at that stage on my Focusrite soundcard, and then match the mid/upper peaks to the peak of the bass. Everything is purely DI'd for level matching using graphical VU.

As the bass register is so prone to pitch shifting under proximity, do you guys use EQ and more fundamental voicing to maximise the output in the bass, which then allows you to push the mid/upper pickup/tine distance closer for a harder sound whilst maintains a level gain across the keyboard?

[The Real MC]

Perhaps you need to re-read my post... 

[little george]

I´m very interested in the answers that the gurus around here could offer to Garyrhodes ask

And sorry, I just don´t undestand The Real MC answer

[pianotuner steveo]

Gary, are you asking about making the volume of the notes more even by setting the bass first, then using that as a guide for the rest of the notes? That does make some sense if that is what you mean.

[Max Brink]

To some extent the shifting notes will be the nature of the beast. But it shouldn't be too extreme. Make sure that the tines are healthy, that you are using good grommets, healthy springs and have the tines in alignment with the tone bars. All of these things will only bring out the problem more...

Adjusting the temperament to suite the changes in pitch can also help avoid unpleasant harmonies. The bass is when I usually will use the strobe tuner for a reference point and rely on my ear for the best harmonies.

Other than that I think MC and Steveo make some good points to consider as well. It all depends on the nature of the problem and I'm not sure if we have struck the nail on the head just yet...


BTW- Is it just me or are circa '76 pianos more susceptible to the pitch shift? Perhaps it's just been a few frustrating pianos that have stood out in my mind...

[GaryRhodes]

Steveo, that's exactly what I'm trying to say. RealMC, I re-read your post, but you seem to refer to external amplification and its affect on accentuating or diminishing certain frequencies. I am only using my Rhodes into my DAW via a Focusrite preamp to match the level across the board. I'm obviously not able to understand your point.

[voltergeist]

I'm dealing with this exact issue at the moment.  Had to back off the pickups from the lowest notes far enough to get a stable pitch.  I do not, however, let the low-note pickup distance dictate the pickup distance for the rest of the harp.  Close pickups are essential to getting good tone and bark.  A common mistake is to set the pickups too far away and end up with anemic tone. 

My advice is to do what you gotta do to deal with pickup influence on pitch on the low notes and go for tone on the rest.

Per MC's post, the imbalance occurring from optimising for pitch on the low end and tone on the rest can be compensated for somewhat by eq and/or amplifier selection.

[Ben Bove]

Yes, it is the nature of the beast for the lowest notes to rise in pitch.  To what degree depends on how close the pickups are as you've noticed.  Just so you know you're not crazy, here's a Herbie recording I often refer to in demonstration: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsJFB69ZisI at 5:36.  You can literally hear the bass notes taking off haha.

It is a balancing act, trying to get the right bark out of the lowest notes without the pitch skyrocketing.  A way you can work around this in most ways, is if you're tuning in equal temperament, to tune the lowest notes about -2 cents flat.  You can't really hear too grossly the notes being out of tune, and as the pitch rises, it rises into tune and up to +2 cents until it starts drifting noticeably.  This gives you a good amount of time in tune.  The tines will also vary how quickly they'll rise so it depends note per note.

Max - I can recall some '76ish era pianos having difficulty, I can remember I think a '77 specifically as well that I had to swap a couple of tines because literally it was like having an active pitch bend wheel.  I do recall Steve Woodyard saying they sometimes would have a batch come in and they'd be called to the production floor - "these tines can't be tuned."  but it was more in the later years definitely, I know he mentioned initial problems with the Schaller switch with sustain and the taper but could be related to tuning as well?

[shmuelyosef]

This is interesting...I have my Rhodes harp (1973 Fender era Stage 73) directly wired out (the tone controls are junk, particularly on these earlier ones) and use high quality preamps...most recently the RNP from FMR Audio. I always find that the bass puts out far too much sound and barks more than I like to balance with the rest of the piano, and end up backing off the spacing. I have noticed that they go sharp when too close, but I generally see the opposite. Same with the other half dozen Rhodes I have worked on (all from the '70s).

jeff