Three new tines with bad sustain. Please help?

[alexdecker]

Hello

I just received three new tines – 41, 51 and 53. They all go in my '72 Stage model. The problem is that all three new tines suffer from poor sustain, making me think I am the problem, and not the tines.

Now, everything else is new in the piano – new hammertips, new damper felts and new grommets and screws on all the tonebars. Still the problems persists. I checked that the springs is not badly placed (not squashing the grommet), and that everything is installed as it should be.

The only thing I can think of could be the reason is that I cut them with a wirecutter, and have not filed them flat yet (see picture), but could that really have such a big impact on sustain?

The sustain even sucks when I just hold the tonebar in the end between two fingers and flick the tine, which makes me sure that the problem is not in the installation of the tonebar/tine, but the ACTUAL tonebar/tine.

Anyways, thanks for bearing with me this far. Does anyone have any suggestions?

– Alex

[voltergeist]

There are a number of possible causes. 

What did you use to tighten them? 

[alexdecker]

There are a number of possible causes. 

What did you use to tighten them?

I used a regular wrench, and tightened it as good as I could. The tine aligns perfectly with the tonebar, and is as tight as the wrench would allow me, but definitely not as tight as I could get it with a nutdriver for instance.

Can that also be the reason you think?

Let me just clarify that the tine IS tight – just not as tight as it can possibly be.

– Alex

[pianotuner steveo]

I would remove them,clean the surface where they contact on both the tine and tone bar, and reconnect using a nut driver. See if that makes a difference. It sounds like you have ruled out bad/squashed grommets.

Is the sustain any different when tines are plucked VS. hitting with hammer?

Are you sure the tone bars are not hitting their neighbors or harp supports?

[alexdecker]

Just checked – the tonebars are not hitting anything, and can vibrate freely!

The sustain problem is there, whether I flick or hit the tine.

So – the problem should't be that the end of the tine is not flat?

I will try and secure it properly with a nutdriver, and get back to this thread with my results.

Man... there is always something going wrong, huh... 

[The Real MC]

The mounting bolts for the tines need some serious torque.  Nutdriver isn't even close.  You need an impact driver.

[alexdecker]

Maybe. Just wondering if that will help with the sustain problem. Because obviously it's a problem, and since every one of my new tines has it, it must be me doing something wrong. That's what I am hoping anyways...

– Alex

[sean]

Alex,

Your photo shows two of the tines without tuning springs, I assume that is not how the tines were installed in the piano.  If there is no tuning spring on the tine, your sustain will suck indeed.


If you put the tine block in a vise, and hold the tonebar in alignment while you turn the wrench with your other hand, you should be able to get the screw plenty tight.

You only need "35 inch pounds of torque. That's not very tight."
http://ep-forum.com/smf/index.php?topic=8151.msg42978#msg42978

I don't think I would let my impact driver anywhere near my Rhodes.  An impact driver can easily snap the head off the tine mounting screw.

Sean

[pianotuner steveo]

I agree with Sean. I have never used anything else but nut drivers on Rhodes and Wurli for mounting tines and reeds. Never had a problem, except on one real old Wurli, I snapped a bolt.

[voltergeist]

The mounting bolts for the tines need some serious torque.  Nutdriver isn't even close.  You need an impact driver.

I second that.  To Sean's point, one does need to be careful with an impact driver to not shear off the screw.  That said, there is no reason to fear using one.  The worst that could happen is shearing the bolt.  If that happens the remainder will screw out of the tine without much difficulty and good reproductions are available.  Given sustain is directly impacted by the mechanical coupling between the tine and the tonebar, tighter is better.  Period.

[BerneseMtnDog]

I might also suggest taking the next tine over and putting it in the suspect spot and hearing what it sounded like in order to eliminate the pickups.

Steve

[alexdecker]

Hey, just wanted to finish up this thread by saying that I now have tighened all the tines properly to the tonebars, and that did the trick! Thanks a lot for all your help!

Now all my '72 needs is a tuning, voicing, and then some damper adjustment, and I should be good to go

– Alex