Escapement too big on '72 fender

[alexdecker]

Hey guys

So I am in the final clear of having my Fender Rhodes '72 restored. I have installed pretty much everything (hammer tips, damper felts, miracle mod, new grommits etc), and now have to resolve the last issues, pertaining to the action.

My action is still kind of slow and heavy. It feels like I have to push the keys with too much force to get a tone out of it, limiting the dynamics of my playing. Now, the funny thing is that this heavyness is worse from the middle and down to the bass, making me think that maybe the harp is set too high.

But on the left harp support, I have some black rubber sitting – it looks like a factory job. And Im not sure Im too comfortable fiddling with that. I mean – what if there is something else I am missing?

So – I bought the medium balance rail felt. I shimmed all the keys to a keydip of 3/8".

I attached to images to this message. One is showing the escapement. You cant see it on the picture, but the escapement is around 0.7 inch. The damper is around 3/8 inch from the tine. The next picture shows the black rubber thing on the harp support.

Can anybody please chime in with some ideas on how to adjust to the proper escapement, so I can finally make some music on this damn thing? 

[Ben Bove]

Each piano is different, but especially pianos before late '75 with the wooden harp support blocks, they were hand-constructed, hand-mounted and strikeline was hand-located.  So there was a lot of room for differences piano to piano.

With that being said, on most pianos like yours, I actually have no black shims on the left side.  Occasionally they'll need one depending, but I see two at least which leads me to believe it's too high.  On top of that, noticing the action is heavier in the bass / mid section is another indicator that the escapement is too high on the left harp support block.

It's a very easy, almost non-destructive test if you remove the shims.  I say almost because occasionally the shims can tear or come apart as you remove them, but in many cases with the aid of a flathead screwdriver you can pry up and remove the shims intact to get the harp resting on the bare support block.  If the test doesn't work out you can always just put them back and screw the harp down, no harm no foul.

Next, you'll want to remove the screw at the top left of the harp where the swivel bracket attaches to it.  This bracket will prevent you being able to slide the harp forward or backward to locate a good strikeline position.  It should be easy to remove with an adjustable wrench and phillips screwdriver, you may have to unplug the grey RCA cable, and the bracket will just hang off of the support block where it's attached.

You'll notice immediately the action will get lighter, but notes may sound choked because the damper arms are set to the old harp height.  If you repeatedly hit a strong chord in the mid-range while sliding the harp towards you, you'll notice the strikeline come into the ideal spot, too far and it'll start to sound plunky.  But find the ideal point where the mid range sounds the "loudest," and where the lower bass notes aren't plunky.

If notes sound too choked, you might want to try comparing that with putting one shim back in vs. both.  Sometimes a little shim helps.  It's also good to note that '72 pianos from what I normally see, the bridle straps are usually very worn out and should be tightened up / replaced.  You'll notice if notes choke up when playing, where the damper isn't engaged until the note is halfway pushed down (and you see a bunch of slack looking inside the piano).  That's one of the bigger aids to helping with a clean strike on the earlier pianos.

The correct way to set the escapement is to remove the piano from the case and reattached the swivel bracket.  However, you technically can leave it hang there if you don't want to go through that whole process.  Drill a new hole to secure the harp and you're set.

[alexdecker]

Ok, I have now succesfully (and in one piece) removed the black shims from the harp support and realigned the strikeline. It plays a little better in the bass section now, but it still feels as if it is a little too heavy for me taste.

Which brings me to my next question: I have been following the advice of setting the tine escapement to 3/8 all the way from the bass to the treble. I tried adjusting the escapement on a few bass notes to something shorter, and felt like that did the trick with the action.

So my question is – the 3/8 we set as tine escapement, is that set in stone, or is it more of a guideline?

Gotta admit though – feels like I am missing something, if I both have to remove the shims attached at the factory AND set and extreme shorter tine escapement to get the action I like. On the other hand I haven't played that many Rhodes pianos, so not even sure what a good Rhodes action should feel like. But I guess I have a really light touch in my playing overall.

Please chime in if you have any suggestions as to what I am doing wrong in this whole restoration procedure!

[alexdecker]

Also, I just measured the escapement on the tines with the black shims removed AND the tine escapement as small as possible, and the escapement on the lowest E bass note is still 0,5 inch! I simply don't get it! It's like there is something fundamentally wrong in the design of my rhodes!

Please help...

– Alex

[voltergeist]

Which brings me to my next question: I have been following the advice of setting the tine escapement to 3/8 all the way from the bass to the treble.

So my question is – the 3/8 we set as tine escapement, is that set in stone, or is it more of a guideline?

Read the service manual.  3/8" is the specified escapement on the bass end, 1/16" is the specified escapement at the treble end.

[alexdecker]

Which brings me to my next question: I have been following the advice of setting the tine escapement to 3/8 all the way from the bass to the treble.

So my question is – the 3/8 we set as tine escapement, is that set in stone, or is it more of a guideline?

Read the service manual.  3/8" is the specified escapement on the bass end, 1/16" is the specified escapement at the treble end.

Oh, I thought it was the measured escapement from hammertip to tine that went from 3/8" to 1/16", and not also the tonebar escapement (adjusted with the back grommit), which I thought was supposed to be 3/8" all the way...?

[voltergeist]

Oh, I thought it was the measured escapement from hammertip to tine that went from 3/8" to 1/16", and not also the tonebar escapement (adjusted with the back grommit), which I thought was supposed to be 3/8" all the way...?
[/quote]

3/8-1/16 is the escapement spec- the distance between the hammer tip and the tine with the key fully depressed.

For setting the height of the tonebar, I use a tine block to set that distance (ie set a tine block under the back of the tonebar, and adjust to that height).  3/8 sounds right, but I don't remember.  The tonebar adjustment and rough tine to pickup alignment should be done before setting the escapement.

[voltergeist]

But again, read the service manual.  If you're working on a Rhodes, that is your bible.

[David Aubke]

Oh, I thought it was the measured escapement from hammertip to tine that went from 3/8" to 1/16", and not also the tonebar escapement (adjusted with the back grommit), which I thought was supposed to be 3/8" all the way...?

The key-side tone bar mounting screw is called the "escapement screw" because it's where you make small adjustments to the note's escapement - the distance from the raised, resting hammer tip to the underside of the tine. The measurement of that screw's height is not itself termed "escapement".

3/8" (the width of a tine block) is the suggested starting point when initially setting up your piano. According to the service manual, the acceptable range of adjustment is from 3/16" to 1/2".

[alexdecker]

Yeah okay. It just seems weird that I have to resort to the 3/16" setting of the escapement screw, and even then, I am only hitting 1/2" escapement on the lowest E bass note. Don't know what I am missing.

I read another thread of a guy with the same problem, and he ended up cutting a 1/8" piece of the harp support itself to get the right escapement. It just seems a bit extreme to me, but perhaps that is the only solution... 

[David Aubke]

Was that guy me?

I don't enjoy fussing over the minutiae of action adjustment. Setting the escapement is something I find particularly vexing, mainly because it seems nearly impossible to measure accurately. It's very difficult to get a measuring device positioned so that it's both accurate and readable. Also, the hammer tip tends to come to rest at slightly different heights depending on the speed of the strike and the pressure applied to the key after the strike.

[alexdecker]

Was that guy me?

I don't enjoy fussing over the minutiae of action adjustment. Setting the escapement is something I find particularly vexing, mainly because it seems nearly impossible to measure accurately. It's very difficult to get a measuring device positioned so that it's both accurate and readable. Also, the hammer tip tends to come to rest at slightly different heights depending on the speed of the strike and the pressure applied to the key after the strike.

Ha, it was you I guess! Hadnt noticed your username was the same

Well, then you know what I mean about the whole thing. I think I'm gonna wait with doing something drastic, and see of people chime in with other solutions, but I have a feeling that I did everything I could for the action of my particular rhodes. Of course I am also half expecting it to feel like my earlier Nord Electro, or an acoustic piano, and I guess a rhodes piano just have a different feel, maybe with a little more heavy action, no matter how you wing it...

– Alex

[alexdecker]

Can somebody tell me what kind of wood is used in the production of the harp supports for the Fender Rhodes? I want to try and make a harp support replica that is slightly lower than the original, and put it in, and see if it does any good for the action. This way, I don't mess with the original parts...

[pianotuner steveo]

Modifying the piano in such a manner is not really the solution, but keeping the original parts is a good idea.

I do not know if this was mentioned above, but shallow key dip makes the action feel heavy. This could be the problem.
Sometimes 3/8" isn't enough. 7/16" can make a big difference in the feel.

[pianotuner steveo]

Also, have you eased your bushings and lubed the balance rail pins and front rail pins?
(These things will not effect escapement, but will effect the  feel)

[alexdecker]

Modifying the piano in such a manner is not really the solution, but keeping the original parts is a good idea.

I do not know if this was mentioned above, but shallow key dip makes the action feel heavy. This could be the problem.
Sometimes 3/8" isn't enough. 7/16" can make a big difference in the feel.

Ah – well maybe I should try that then! Need to order some thicker balance rail felts of VV then!

I did ease the keys that needed it, but only lubed to balance rails actually. Will try ad lube front rails too and see how it plays then.

Still... 1/2 inch of escapement at best... 

[David Aubke]

Modifying the piano in such a manner is not really the solution, but keeping the original parts is a good idea.

I do not know if this was mentioned above, but shallow key dip makes the action feel heavy. This could be the problem.
Sometimes 3/8" isn't enough. 7/16" can make a big difference in the feel.

In the discussion referenced above, I later posited that I could have resolved my escapement issues by raising the balance rail felts. I agree that this would be a better approach than slicing a chunk off the harp support.

[alexdecker]

My biggest problem is already having installed the mediem thick balance rail felts, that installing a thicker balance rail felt will mess up my Miracle Mod, won't it?

Also, I am not completely sure how raising the key height and dip will help the escapement issues? Care to elaborate a bit on that?

– Alex

[pianotuner steveo]

Ahhh.. I did not think of that...raising the balance rail may do both. No need to replace the balance felts, especially if your keys are level. You can try to raise the entire rail with paper shims if possible. This was common in Wurlitzers.

Lubing the front rail pins would likely only help if the keys are slow to return.

[alexdecker]

Ok, so the saga continues. On closer inspection of the keybed AFTER installing my Miracle Mod, I am now noticing slight differences in key rest height in the back. The keys resting slightly higher have a way better feel than the keys resting slightly lower. Incidently the keys resting lower and with worse action is the bass section, which I am having troubles with.

My question is now regarding Miracle Mod – I have installed it using the Vintage Vibe instructional videos, and a thread in here on ep piano. But could it potentially help my action, if I moved the bump slightly further back (away from player)? As I see it, the bump would then maybe slightly push against the hammer, but nothing that would impede stop block... I think...

Can anyone chime in with their thoughts?

I have attached a poor pic as a help to understand the issue.

– Alex

[pianotuner steveo]

It is possible that the "bad" keys have the bump too far forward.

[alexdecker]

It is possible that the "bad" keys have the bump too far forward.

No, when I take them out, the bump is in the exact same location (when I installed it, I took a treble key and a bass key, marked the correct placement, and then drew a pencil line across the entire keybed, as specified in the Vintage Vibe video). Could it be that the mod would benefit from being installed in slightly different locations on each key? I guess it really shouldn't make that much of a difference as I hope it would.

When you say "too far forward", you mean too far towards the player, right? Even though the bump is installed in the same location on the keys, it is the keys where the hammer rests a bit more on the bump during stopblock, that has the better action. Could it be that the action benefits from a slight push from the bump when the key is fully pressed down?

– Alex

[pianotuner steveo]

Yes, I mean too close to the player side, and yes, I think it will help the "bad" keys if you push the bump back slightly, but only trying it will tell you for sure.

[Ben Bove]

What I have seen on a few pianos, is a pooly installed action rail where one side is slightly more forward than the other - imagine all your hammers attached to this straight rail of wood, and the left side is attached to the mounting block slightly further back on the left side, than it is on the right side.

What would happen is that the bump is in the same position on each key, but if the action rail is off it'll contact the hammer at a different point.  I often check the highest key and the lowest key, mark the spot for ideal bump location, pull the 2 keys out and see if there's a big difference where they are supposed to line up.

try taking some of your worst sluggish bass keys, and just experiment with moving the bump mod on 2 - slightly back or forward etc.

[alexdecker]

What I have seen on a few pianos, is a pooly installed action rail where one side is slightly more forward than the other - imagine all your hammers attached to this straight rail of wood, and the left side is attached to the mounting block slightly further back on the left side, than it is on the right side.

What would happen is that the bump is in the same position on each key, but if the action rail is off it'll contact the hammer at a different point.  I often check the highest key and the lowest key, mark the spot for ideal bump location, pull the 2 keys out and see if there's a big difference where they are supposed to line up.

try taking some of your worst sluggish bass keys, and just experiment with moving the bump mod on 2 - slightly back or forward etc.

I did exactly that. Took a bass note, and played around with the bump placement on that one. Unfortunately, I could not get any better action out of the key, and the hammer height stayed the same, even though I moved the bump slighty more towards the back of the piano. So my conclusion is that I have in fact installed the Miracle Mod correct, and when I took a treble key and a bass key, the mod is installed in pretty much the same location.

Man... I am running out of options here... 

– Alex

[pianotuner steveo]

I just looked at the first two pictures in your first post. Why is the harp sitting above the support in the second picture?

This may be your problem.

[alexdecker]

I just looked at the first two pictures in your first post. Why is the harp sitting above the support in the second picture?

This may be your problem.

I am not completely sure what you mean? I don't see how it could sit any else way? Can you post a corresponding pic of your own rhodes, so I can see how it is supposed to sit?

– Alex

[BerneseMtnDog]

On my piano there were two black plastic shims on the bass side which also gave way too high escapement.  After removing them I was left with a gap of a little more than 1/4"escapement on the bass side which I like.  If everything else in your keybed is set up correct which it kind of sounds like it is, and if you have 3/8" gap on the escapement spring on the tines, and you still have 1/2" escapement gap on the bass side I'd try a shorter harp support.  If you don't want to cut down the original I'd make a new one out of hard maple about 1/4" shorter than the one you have.  What does the escapement gap look like on the treble side?  Is it about 1/16"?  I wouldn't be a bit surprised if your harp support was always too tall.  As cool as the Rhodes is they were never finely crafted machines.  I think most need some skillful tweaking to make great.  If you don't have access to any woodworking tools I could probably cut one for you and drop it in the mail.  You'd have to drill the holes and I'd want you to cover postage costs.

Steve

[goldphinga]

I just looked at the first two pictures in your first post. Why is the harp sitting above the support in the second picture?

This may be your problem.

I am not completely sure what you mean? I don't see how it could sit any else way? Can you post a corresponding pic of your own rhodes, so I can see how it is supposed to sit?

– Alex

Yes- it looks like the harp is pointing upwards and not sitting on the support blocks- could be the harp hinge needs remounting in a new position but hard to tell what's going on in the pic exactly.

[alexdecker]

Well, I double checked all I could, and the harp is resting on the support block as it is supposed to – think maybe it is just in the picture it looks like something else.

Could I ask a favour of someone having a mark1 properly set up? Could you measure the height of your support blocks? I am still contemplating cutting of some height to get the action that I want (or at least manufacture a copy of a lesser height), and could be interesting to hear of the height of the support blocks is the same for multiply pianos...

– Alex

[pianotuner steveo]

Alex, it may have been an optical illusion in your photo. At quick glance, it looks like there is a large gap between the harp and the support.

I have no way to post pictures here, and I do not own a Mark I anymore.

[BerneseMtnDog]

My piano is a 1975 and both wood blocks are approx. 4 3/8" tall with no shims on the bass side and one shim on the treble end.

Steve

[alexdecker]

Mmh... okay. Just took apart the whole thing yesterday, and my harp support is 4,48 inch, which is about 0,11 inch higher than yours. It is still not enough distance to make up for the large escapement in the extreme bass end, where the escapement is 0,55 inch. I have removed all shims from the harp support, double checked that every screw is secured tightly, and there is no gaps between any wood in the piano, and I set the key dip according to the service manual.

Just wanted to make sure, before I shave some wood off the harp support, if anyone can think of anything else I might be missing in this case?

I simply can't understand that my piano, of all of them, has this problem. I hope I might've missed something, so I don't have to start sawing stuff off...

– Alex

[Student Rhodes]

If you're that concerned, perhaps don't cut the supports down, and just buy some new wood with which you can test out different heights.

[alexdecker]

If you're that concerned, perhaps don't cut the supports down, and just buy some new wood with which you can test out different heights.

I decided to do just that actually. I had some wood cut, about 0,4 inch shorter in height. A new problem poses now, as the harp support sits so low that the harp hits the damper release bar. Now, if I drill some new holes for the damper release bar so that too will be lowered, it will press down on the damper arms in its default resting position, which is not good either.

I have gotten the harp down at least a few millimetres before it hits the damper release bar, which has helped the problem somehow. Not I just need to readjust the damper arms and get the bridal straps stretched again and suck.

Geez, I thought this was gonna be a minor fix, but I feel like I am starting to reengineer the action instead of just adjusting it... 

– Alex

[martynclark]

I'm wondering if you ever sorted this. I have an identical problem – escapement about 4-5mm too big on a late 1972 Mk1... and have been going crazy trying to sort it. My best guess is that it's an issue with the mounting of the hammer rail, but I've not taken that apart to check yet. Did you find a solution? Martyn

[Alan Lenhoff]

The Rhodes manual lists a variety of ways to reduce the escapement.  They include removing harp support shims, cutting the height of the harp supports, adding a shim under each hammer tip and screwing down the tonebar screws more. 

Removing shims would be the obvious first step.  If you don't get enough from that, if you were a busy, skilled tech you might just cut down the harp supports and be done with it.  But if you're not a skilled woodworker -- or you want to do the least intrusive thing next -- I'd try screwing down the tonebars.  A bit tedious, but you can't do any harm in trying it.

The Rhodes manual says the factory setting for tonebar height is 3/8"  (9.525 mm), but that the acceptable range is 1/2" (12.70mm) to 3/16' (4.762 mm).  So there's some room to play with.  I have two pre-1975 Rhodes.  On one, I solved the issue by just removing a couple of bass shims. On the other, I also had to crank down the screws just a little bit to get the feel right.

Alan

[pnoboy]

Assuming one has the tools and skills to do a good job of cutting down the left support, I would have no compunction about doing it.  If you end up making it a bit too low, you can always put back the black shims, or fabricate some new ones.

[Bassics101]

Resurrecting a thread already pulled up once before, but this may be of interest to those reading this thread.  Also my first post.  I've read above where several people have this issue with '72 era Rhodes. The harp is sitting a little too high.  The one I'm working on has the same problem noted in this thread that a soft touch  often doesn't cause the hammer to hit the tine. 

An interesting aspect of mine is that the hammer tips after the bass section are 7/16" tall, a 1/16th taller than most original and all replacements I can find.  These appear to be original, but perhaps not.  They are all painted yellow on one face. Note, I haven't checked the wood-wrapped tips, but I think they are the same.  I'm wondering if during this time Fender played with the height of the harp and used taller tips to compensate. 

Any thoughts?  If so, then reshimming or cutting the support would work, as would shimming each hammer tip if replacing.  In my case, I think I'll just shim the few tips that have to be replaced.

The bass tips are 3/8", so perhaps this is why problems show up in the bass section of these.

[pnoboy]

This process shouldn't be such agony.  This is what I'd do--it's fast and simple.
For the 1st bass note, adjust the tine screw nearest the keyboard (the escapement screw)  to provide 3/8" between the bottom of the tone generator and the top of the wood--You can see a pictorial in the Rhodes manual.
Next, for that same note, adjust the tine screw furthest from the keyboard to get the best tone out of that note.
Hold the key down, but don't put lots of force on it--just make sure it is bottomed out.
Measure between the bottom of the tine and the top of the hammer tip that's closest to the tine.  It should be between 1/4" and 3/8" inch.  Is it?  How does the action feel?  Does the note play both with a soft and hard blow to the key?
If the escapement is way off, and a small adjustment of the escapement screw can't get the escapement to be correct, then cut down the left harp support or get yourself a piece a maple or some other hard wood and make a new one.  It's just a piece of wood--nothing magical.

You could go through the same process with the highest treble note.  In that case, the escapement should be very small--1/16" or thereabouts.

[Bassics101]

Not a problem to fix at all.  In my case, removing shims is faster, easier and not permanent vs firing up the table saw.  Just requires hair dryer and putty knife.  I'm more curious as to whether anyone else has seen 7/16 hammer tips in mid range keys.  Maybe I should post that as a general question to the Rhodes forum.